Ooh, I absolutely loved the way you put that!! That's so true - that's certainly the view of Snape that I've always held, personally. I think that could explain Snape's actions wonderfully - both the good and the bad, but it ultimately would leave him firmly planted on the good side - something I would far rather believe. I have more to say about that, but I'm going to be late for work if I don't shift myself so I'll drop by again later!

I like this alot, I think this is an excellent and probably accurate translation. At the same time, TRelawney is babbling about DD not listening to her warnings about the lighting-struck tower, and trouble or something there. It could be very plausable that Trelawney was on to something. Now if my theory is correct and DD's death was planned or even staged (for the DD's alive hopefuls), he purposely shunned her away because he knew she was right. On top of this canon, there are other questionable events that help the "planned theory"

1) Snape's look of disgused in the tower
2) He ran straight up to the tower, he knew where DD and Draco were
3) He warns Harry that he needs to close his mind and use non-verbal
spells to beat him
4) DD and Snape have a heated discussion in the open on Hogwarts
grounds where Hagrid overheard- If Hagrid was close enough
to over hear them, DD must've known he was there - perhaps
purposely to tell Harry for some reason
5) Snape shows a little remorse in OotP when he questions the dog
chasing Harry up the tree in Harry's memories
6) Trying to get Draco to tell him the plan
7) Healed DD at the beginning of HBP
8) He was the one DD wanted when he got back from the cave

That's all I can think of right now. Gotta go, Boss is coming.

i dont know if i understand this, i think that maybe this was rowlings way of telling us something, kind of like when she had hermione tell krum how to say her name.


karsh,

my belief is that dd didnt want trewalney to fall into the wrong hands, aka voldemorts, because it was his duty to make sure he didnt find out the prophecy, and i guess he thought that even if trewalney didnt know it vl could maybe still get her to retell it? i dont know if this is possible but maybe dd didnt know either and he was just making sure?

wow
wow
wow!
triple wow!!
i really like this one...
you know this is very much JKR's style...
giving important clues that just make you laugh at..and then...they turn out to be fundamental!!!
a dark troubled man..
yes it may wery well be snape..
troubled because he does not know what to do..
and he has got mad at the questioner..when asked by dumbledore to kill him...
yes i think you hit the point there!!!
you know i'm always looking for those little things in my second reading thurough the books..thanks a lot for this one.

well now you put it that way, haha, at first it seemed sorta like a loona thing, but now that i think about it it is her style, its like telling us how to say hermiones name in the GOF, and putting dd's info in harrys first wizard card before we knew about flamel, im sure there are others

i dont know if snape is good or bad but i really want to believe he is good.

I thought that a dark troubled man is harry...he is dark haired and he' s troubled about malfoy.

I believe that this is what happened. After all, where else can he go now? After he killed Dumbledore, no one in the Order trusts him now. He can't pass on information about the Death Eaters because he has no one to pass it on to. In fact, all of them would be quite happy to kill him. Dumbledore was the leader of the Order, so it will be probably be fairly confused and disorganized. And Snape has gone too far for him to be accepted back. Imagine that Snape actually was loyal to Dumbledore. How will he regain their trust? There is no concrete evidence in the Wizarding world that can help Snape now. Snape is in a very tricky position indeed if he is working for Dumbledore, because the only thing that he can do for him now is to protect a teenager that tried to kill him.

Uhm, I don't agree with you there Louise. Dumbledore has said a few times(maybe just a couple, haven't counted them) that only two people know the full ocntents of the prophecy, and those two are Harry and himself. Snape was discovered eavesdropping halfway through the prophecy, or so said DD at the end of OotP. And as I don't think anyone in the Order knows its full ocntents, I believe tehre's no way Snape could have told LV the prophecy even if he were totally loyal to him.

ON the other hand, I definitely agree about DD having planned his death. He said to Harry that he understodd better than Harry did what Snape and Malfoy had been talking during Slughorn's party. And I seem to remember(though wouldn't be able tos ay exactly where) that he mentions something like this again at some point, and he does too on the top of the Astronomy tower when talking to Draco. So I really think he knew his time had come, he probably knew LV was after him and that's why he started telling Harry all that he knew, because his time was short and he was the only one who could.

I agree with Hallia to disagree with you on that, Michelle Dessler. There is no evidence that Voldermort himself knows the whole prophesy. In fact, there is evidence against it. Remember: in OotP, Voldemort was looking for the prophesy. It got smashed. How would he find out the whole prophesy?

And I think that DD definitley did not plan his death. I don't think he would plead for his life, I think he was pleading for something else entirely, and I'm not sure what, but he wouldn't willingly die. He is too valuable. Surely he would try to live, for Harry's sake? There was so much DD could have taught him. I think that once he knew death was coming his way, he accepted it, but that doesn't mean he wanted to die. There is much evidence that points both ways in the Snape's loyalty thing, but, for this, I think that things point toward the Snape-is-evil side. Well, they don't support the Snape-is-good side, at least. No, I don't want to believe that Snape is evil, but I wan't to believe he's evil. That so doesn't make sense, but hey, whatever.

Oops... Call myself a HP fan, honestly....

To be fair though, Ron and Hermione know too, I think.... *shrugs* I guess I just kind of assumed that it wasn't such a big deal now - which it isn't really...not anymore. I mean, Voldemort made the choice and that's it, there's not much he could do now even if he did know the full prophecy, is there?

Anyway...slightly off topic I suppose, which is totally my fault for mentioning it, so let's just move past that one now and I'll give myself a severe slapping for it later on

Mmm...that's my fault as well for not making myself more clear. Obviously, no one wants to die - not even people contemplating suicide, they just want their pain to stop and they see that as the only way to achieve release. So no, Dumbledore wouldn't plan to die in the sense that I think you think I think, if you follow me... What I mean is that if Dumbledore knew he was dying anyway - either through sickness, because of the potion or because he knew about another prophecy made that we don't know about yet - then he might have made arrangements for it, which isn't the same thing. He is important, yes, but if the matter was taken out of his hands through whatever means, then I think he probably planned for it to come about in a manner of his choosing, do you know what I mean?

crsdba!! You rescued my dignity! Thank you!! *hugs* Yes, I'd forgotten about that subject, to be honest, but we were discussing about Snape possibly hearing the whole of the prophecy in another thread, weren't we? I totally agree though - if Snape did hear the whole prophecy and he was loyal to Voldemort, then he would undoubtedly have told him which leaves us with only two possibilities - either he didn't hear the whole prophecy (and there are some good arguments in the other thread to suggest he did) or he's not truly on Voldemort's side.

About Snape's benefit to the Order - I don't really think that's important, to be honest. The Order isn't important. I know that's probably a tough concept to sell, but let me put it another way.

In a war, you've got your soldiers hand-to-hand fighting on a battle field. That's not really where the differences are being made though. The difference is being made in a room somewhere where the diplomats and politicians and trying to come to some sort of arrangement that would bring an end to hostilities. I know that's not exactly the way it happens - I mean, I think Churchill gave up with Hitler eventually - but it's just a scenario to illustrate a point.

The Order are the soldiers, but their fighting the DE's is never going to bring an end to the war. The only thing that will is Voldemort's death and there is only one person who can bring that about - Harry. His protection is *the* most important thing above all, beyond anything else, to the extent where I believe Dumbledore died for it. It doesn't matter who believes Snape in the end - if he is well placed to continue Dumbledore's wish to protect Harry and help him in the end, if he has an ally in that room or field or wherever it is that the final battle will take place (if there is one...there might not be, you know...it could be more subtle than that, but anyway...) then it would be as though part of Dumbledore is still there. It could mean the difference between success and failure for Harry.

Hope I haven't confused anyone too much there...I don't think I'm about to win any Diamond awards for clarity, am I?

Well, Dumbledore answers that one himself.

Snape didn't hear the "mark him as his equal" part (if Dumbledore is right, which I am sure he is) So...yeah. Back to my original point. (Or did I have one?) Well, kinda. Not hearing the whole prophecy kind of sealed Voldemorts doom, because by attacking Harry, he hand-made an enemy that could kill him. Not that any of this helps ascertain who Snape is really betrraying.

Ah, yes...something I wanted to talk about, actually - excellent point, Hallia Though it kind of makes me feel , mostly because this is one, I have to hold my hands up and admit, I just can't find an explanation for and was one of the main reasons why, when I first read the book, I thought Snape really was a nasty piece of work.

*sigh* The only thing I would really offer here, and I admit that it's weak, is that perhaps she was a necessary casualty. If that's the case, then it absolutely stinks. Of course, it's not without the realms of comprehension - I mean, in 24 in season 3, Jack had to execute one of his friends in order to keep an extremely lethal virus from being released that would have killed millions. That was so hard to watch and even harder to try to justify and explain. It translates to HP as being that Harry is really *that* important that it doesn't matter who else has to die to protect him, so long as he gets Voldemort in the end. I sincerely hope that's not the path JKR is pursuing for many reasons, but mostly because I think she's going to have a very hard time selling such a concept to a huge majority of her fans. Would Dumbledore really allow innocents to die just to maintain Snape's cover? Is Snape being close to Voldemort really that important? Possibly...but then again, possibly not. Does anyone remember where that information came from? Who said it? Was it Snape himself, Bella, Narcissa? Because I think that could have some bearing. If betraying the Order really was that easy, then why hasn't Snape's information led to the capture of everyone from the Order? Or at least someone who was more important - why not give information leading to Lupin's death? Or Kingsley's? Or Tonks? Obviously not all of them because then it *would* look as though there was a traitor in the Order. (Echoes of old 'who is the traitor' discussions spring to mind...boy, was I ever wide of the mark there too... Anyway...)

Would they have had to make some kind of a Vow when they joined the Order? To protect its secrets? Did Snape take such a Vow? Is he then incapable of breaking the Vow, explaining why others haven't died because of him too? But if that was the case, then he wouldn't have been able to say anything about Emmeline either.

I honestly don't know what to think about this - I really look forward to seeing some of you guys' thoughts

BTW - glad we got that whole prophecy thing sorted I agree with stonesorceror - there's no doubt that it *was* important at one time, but that time has passed. But it would have been too late the second that Voldemort attacked Harry, so it still doesn't really explain the extents to which Dumbledore went to protect it. Unless there was something else hidden within the prophecy...as crsbda said, word-play possibly.

Kestral - I don't know, on both counts! I guess I'm assuming that he did, given that I'd *like* to think that Snape is good. But as you said, maybe there was another prophecy or something that only he knows about. I don't think Dumbledore would have mentioned it to the other Order members because if you're going to trust someone to do something that appears to be the most evil thing a person can do, then you have to have someone who has known darkness who can understand the wider picture. I'm not sure that anyone else in the Order could ever have understood that his death might have been necessary as Snape would have. Even he had 'revulsion' on his face as he did it.

No, I agree. But I don't think this thing is going to come down to a basic duel because I think we all know that Voldemort would whoop Harry's emotional backside into the next century, as could Snape. Snape doesn't fear Harry. I don't think that his protection would come down to something like 'get behind me, Harry! I shall save thee!!' type thing...I think it would be more subtle. Like harming Voldemort to make him more accessible in some way, or perhaps giving him false information, something like that.

At least I hope the ending won't be a duel - it would be *very* boring and a rather flat end to the series to have a 'Big Boss' style, Anime, Yu-Gi-Oh Trading-Card-Game, kicking-backside style ending, wouldn't it?

I agree with this. . .he could have used muffliato thingy. . .but wasn’t snape caught by some person working there….and what did he apologise about then if he hadn’t listened to anything and how did voldemort know? And we must remember that snape knows about trelawney so that’s puts her in more danger

Snape, hold off Voldemort? I suppose its possible, but that doesn't seem like Snape. He'd have to stand up to Voldemort and basically declare his allegiance to Harry. Snape doesn't like to stick out his neck that much. And what false information could he give Voldemort? He's not part of the Order, so he can't give information about their plans or anything. And he can't withhold it because of Legilimancy. Snape really has no use to the Order.

I think we've already seen just how good an actor Snape is. Maybe we don't know the exact moments when he was acting and when he wasn't. Snape wouldn't have to really stick out his neck in Order to hold off Lv. Also, up to now he's been able to keep certain things from Lv, we know that he's very skilled in Occlumency, just as he is in Legilimency, or why would DD have given him the task of teaching Harry Occlumency? It has to be because he is good at it. Therefore, I think Snape can conceal things form LV and act in front of him, feigning things that aren't true. So I think Snape could still be useful for Harry.

*dementor*, I believe Snape didn't apologise for eavesdropping, but for giving LV the information he'd heard(the part of the prophecy) as it made Voldemort go after the Potters, and end up killing them.

Yeah, I've got exams until the 10th of February, I just did one, and it went OK, so that's one less worry!!