Full Version: Hogsmeade
Why is harry aloud to go to hogsmeade...sirius is dead so shouldnt his form die with him ???
no...i don't think so... guardian dead or not, he had earned his permission and could go to hogsmeade. 
I agree with Hermione's freak. By the way, you spelled allowed wrong, Jay934. You spelled it aloud, which refers to volume, and it should have been allowed, which means able to do something.
Hehehe...a little grammar tip from priori_incantatem! 
Well, anyway, when Harry's only guardian died, he was left on his own. In real life, if your legal guardian passes away, your closest relative takes custody (I believe), unless otherwise stated. In Harry's case, he had no remeaining relatives, nor a godparent left. I suppose he was on his own, then, to make his own decisions. He obviously said that he should go, and Dumbledore and/or McGonagall approved of it, and viola! He went!
This may just be a flaw in JK's writing, and there is just no explanation, but I guess it is worth trying to explain!
_daviD
Well, anyway, when Harry's only guardian died, he was left on his own. In real life, if your legal guardian passes away, your closest relative takes custody (I believe), unless otherwise stated. In Harry's case, he had no remeaining relatives, nor a godparent left. I suppose he was on his own, then, to make his own decisions. He obviously said that he should go, and Dumbledore and/or McGonagall approved of it, and viola! He went!
This may just be a flaw in JK's writing, and there is just no explanation, but I guess it is worth trying to explain!
_daviD
Aw, that was a little mean, priori 
I don't think there's any need to point things like that out...certainly not in public. A PM would have been better
Anyway, I'll edit the title now.
On topic, I guess you have a point, Jay, but I don't really think it's a big thing. After all, Harry is 16 now anyway so he's capable of making his own decisions I guess. It's been a long time since I was in sixth form so I'm not sure if you still need permission slips...I would imagine you do, but anyway...
They let him go, so I guess the school must have been happy about it...maybe they let Lupin give permission instead or something.
I don't think there's any need to point things like that out...certainly not in public. A PM would have been better Anyway, I'll edit the title now.
On topic, I guess you have a point, Jay, but I don't really think it's a big thing. After all, Harry is 16 now anyway so he's capable of making his own decisions I guess. It's been a long time since I was in sixth form so I'm not sure if you still need permission slips...I would imagine you do, but anyway...
They let him go, so I guess the school must have been happy about it...maybe they let Lupin give permission instead or something.
| QUOTE (felix_felicis_444 @ Jan 28 2006, 08:19 PM) |
| Hehehe...a little grammar tip from priori_incantatem! Well, anyway, when Harry's only guardian died, he was left on his own. In real life, if your legal guardian passes away, your closest relative takes custody (I believe), unless otherwise stated. In Harry's case, he had no remeaining relatives, nor a godparent left. |
Well, he does have living relatives - the Dursleys. We know this because JKR has gone to great lengths to point out, on many occasions, that they are harry's only living family.
In truth, Sirius' letter should not reallty have been acceptable as he was not Harry's legal guardian. However, McGonagall's disdain of the Dursleys was made very clear from the very beginning and this, along with the fact that (on her website) JKR has told us that she's really an old softie at heart, would result in her accepting Sirius's permission form (hope that makes sense
). The same reasoning could mean that she would 'conveniently' forget that the person who gave permission was dead.
Well, technically your godfather is your legal guardian once your parents aren't tehre, is he not?? I may be mistaken here. However, I don't think it was up to McGonagall this time to accept the form. I believe that until the Order reformed no one knew Harry was in contact with Sirius save for Ron, Hermione and Dumbledore. And actually, when Pigwidgeon arrives on the train with the letter and the form signed, Harry says "That'll be good enough for Dumbledore". SO I think it was Dumbledore who received the form and not McGonagall, and he told her that Harry was to be allowed to go.
My point on the original question: I think that they (i.e. M.G. or Dd) simply just understood Harry's situation... I mean he already had a hard time because the dead of his godfather, there is really no need to be kinda harsh to him and not let him ge to Hogsmeade because of that. 
Hmm...I don't really think that it matters. Sirius gave permission one time, and just because he's dead now doesn't change the fact that he gave permission already. It doesn't really make sense for them to have to get letters of permission every year, as I'm sure that if a parent/guardian of a young wizard suddenly decided that it wasn't a good idea for their child to go to Hogsmeade, they'd send an owl to the school saying so.
Even now, Harry shouldn't need permission, because he's of age. It would be really kind of patronizing, and even insulting in Harry's parentless, mentorless case, if he still was forced to ask for permission.
Even now, Harry shouldn't need permission, because he's of age. It would be really kind of patronizing, and even insulting in Harry's parentless, mentorless case, if he still was forced to ask for permission.
| QUOTE (Hallia @ Jan 29 2006, 06:48 AM) |
| Well, technically your godfather is your legal guardian once your parents aren't tehre, is he not?? |
At least here in the US, Sirius would have no legal guardianship unless a will was left naming him guardian. Also, the courts would have to award him guardianship after reading the will. I would be suprised if the UK was much different.
Technically Sirius's permission slip was worthless since the Dursleys were Harry's legal guardians. Harry made that reference that it would be enough for Dumbledore because he knew the rules would be bent because of his situation.
There was nothing for McGonnagal to bend in PoA since Harry had an unsigned permission slip. I believe she has a soft heart for Harry and would bend the rules the same as Dumbledore. Sirius's permission form was enough for both Dumbledore and McGonnagal even though it was technically not legal.
In the same light I believed both of them choose to bend the rules some more and continued to accept a permission slip from a dead godfather who had no right to grant permission.
umm. do you mind if i ask you something ???
ok i am dying to know , and i just want a simple yes or no , dont give me any detials .... ok i just got through reading the " ORDER OF THE PHOENX " about an hour ago and cant wait to find out .... the question is ..... is SIRIUS BLACK really dead or will he come back in the " HALF-BLOOD PRINCE " ???????
ok i am dying to know , and i just want a simple yes or no , dont give me any detials .... ok i just got through reading the " ORDER OF THE PHOENX " about an hour ago and cant wait to find out .... the question is ..... is SIRIUS BLACK really dead or will he come back in the " HALF-BLOOD PRINCE " ???????
You don't really want us to tell you that, do you?
Anyway, I guess I agree pretty much with what has been said. They basically bent the rules, and besides, I don't think anyone's really gonna challenge it at this point. I mean, honestly, who would? Other than maybe Malfool or somebody like that, and I don't think he really had it on his mind.
Anyway, I guess I agree pretty much with what has been said. They basically bent the rules, and besides, I don't think anyone's really gonna challenge it at this point. I mean, honestly, who would? Other than maybe Malfool or somebody like that, and I don't think he really had it on his mind.
| QUOTE (Vindictive Dark @ Jan 30 2006, 02:37 AM) |
| Hmm...I don't really think that it matters. Sirius gave permission one time, and just because he's dead now doesn't change the fact that he gave permission already. |
Yeah, I guess most of us assumed that you have to hand in your permission every year, although noone said that.
If this is not the case... well... no more questions
but he still has got a permission form and they know sirius is dead but it is still signed so he can go cant he!
I don't think that is would be very feasible to allow him to go, then take it away just because his guardian died. It isn't like you need one every year, just a signed one from teh thrid year. It wouldn't be fair if they took that privelage away from Harry, he has lost so much already.
isnt there aurors in the village, to protect people and students anyway ? so i guess that even though sirius is dead, hed still be allowed. dont quote me on that though ! i just remember reading that somewhere ... ?
I think that Harry could go to Hogsmeade because Sirius signed the permission form, even though Sirius is dead, he did still sign it, so Harry is perfectly okay to go to Hogsmeade. I think that someone wouldve stopped him if he couldnt go by now.
i really think whem the guardian has allowed them to go it means they are allowed to go
If Harry's guardian signed it (Sirius) that means that he has given permission for Harry to go. Even if Sirius dies, he has still given that permission for Harry to go. I'm surprised that Harry could go in the 6th book without a couple permenent auror escorts.
Well once he has signed it he has given Harry permission to go to Hogsmeade and I don't believe that because he died Harry can not visit Hogsmeade.
I know that after thte third book Sirius signed that paper so that Harry could go to Hogsmeade, and I don't think that they have to get another one signed every year, I think that only students that are coming to age have to sign it. So I think that even though Siruis is gone he can still go.
If it wasn't that way then he wouldn't go because no matter how much Mcgonagal likes him or even Dumbledore for that matter, he didn't go all through his third year, I don't think that they would be any different about it now!
If it wasn't that way then he wouldn't go because no matter how much Mcgonagal likes him or even Dumbledore for that matter, he didn't go all through his third year, I don't think that they would be any different about it now!
well when DD knew that harrys largest protector had died (im talkin about sirius) DD knew that the only way he could go was that he went with his friends who would help protect him through anything (showed in book 5)
i dont think that the form would have died all they needed was a signature not a life
curse
i dont think that the form would have died all they needed was a signature not a life
curse
QUOTE(felix_felicis_444 @ Jan 28 2006, 04:12 PM) [snapback]154969[/snapback]
Hehehe...a little grammar tip from priori_incantatem!
Well, anyway, when Harry's only guardian died, he was left on his own. In real life, if your legal guardian passes away, your closest relative takes custody (I believe), unless otherwise stated. In Harry's case, he had no remeaining relatives, nor a godparent left. I suppose he was on his own, then, to make his own decisions. He obviously said that he should go, and Dumbledore and/or McGonagall approved of it, and viola! He went!
This may just be a flaw in JK's writing, and there is just no explanation, but I guess it is worth trying to explain!
Harry still had the Dursleys as relatives, just like when he was starting his third year, he needed their permission, not Sirius's, to go to Hogsmeade. At the end of OotP when Harry is getting off the Hogwarts Express, Moody, Arthur Weasley, Tonks, and Lupin talk to the Dursleys about how Harry is to be treated, and I think Harry could have easily convinced the Dursleys to sign his form after they were threatened by Moody. They would much rather sign his form than have him write to a member of the Order and have them show up at 4 Privet Drive to "convince" the Dursleys.
Does the form really have to be renewed each year? Isn't a permission, once given and not expressly rescinded, still valid?
The books do not mention that there is a need to get new signed permissions . . . it looks to me that the old permission signed by Sirius is still valid. Even after his death, because it doesn't involve anything that requires his presence.
The books do not mention that there is a need to get new signed permissions . . . it looks to me that the old permission signed by Sirius is still valid. Even after his death, because it doesn't involve anything that requires his presence.
Yes, bumblebee, I agree completely with you. There is no evidence showing the forms need to be renewed each year, and it seems kind of pointless if they do need to be. I was just posting that if they do need to be renewed yearly, after the incident at King's Cross station, Harry could've easily convinced the Dursleys, though I doubt he would need to. I guess I never really made my opinion, that it doesn't need renewing yearly, very clear in my previous post.
*lol* . . . your remark that he could have threatened the Dursleys with summoning members of the Order does make Harry look a little bit like a bully, doesn't it . . . I do realise that he has suffered enough abuse by the Dursleys, and he has threatened them with magic before, but all he had done was ignite their fears, I don't think that he would really have done anything to them or make other people do to them. In the end he would have liked to solve his own problems, not get them solved by summoning somebody to do it for him.
All the times that other wizards have been at the house in Privet Drive to help Harry, they hadn't come at Harry's summons but for reasons of their own: the Weaseleys, Dumbledore, the members of the Order.
All the times that other wizards have been at the house in Privet Drive to help Harry, they hadn't come at Harry's summons but for reasons of their own: the Weaseleys, Dumbledore, the members of the Order.
Maybe it's an oversight but there has been no mention of ever having received a secondary permission slip to go out to Hogsmeade after the first one. I believe that it is something that just continues on. Had kind of wondered it myself. But I figure permission slip or no, nothing has kept Harry from going to Hogsmeade anyway, so maybe they figured why bother? If they just let him go, at least they know where he is!!
Or maybe the Dursleys are simply signing him out - Petunia seemed pretty scared with the whole "Remember my last" howler she got. Maybe she's signing it for him?
Jeannine
Or maybe the Dursleys are simply signing him out - Petunia seemed pretty scared with the whole "Remember my last" howler she got. Maybe she's signing it for him?
Jeannine
just because sirius died doesn't mean harry can't go to hogsmeade. when sirius signed the form it said somehthing like from here on i give permission that this person can go to hogsmeade so that means that even if sirius died harry still gets to go. beside si don't think it would be very fair either if they said that he couldn't go because of sirius's death. there is no reason to take harry away from hogsmeade just because of a death and that he signed the paper.
You know I thought this question would go on a different way when I read the title. I thought it would ask like if Harry wasnt alllowed in Hogsmade when Sirius was "on the loose" why is he allowed there now that Voldemort is on the loose. But well just saying this is a question that can be answered by itself. Its like saying, how come all the treaties made between countries dont get nulled now that all the people that have signed it are dead.
that is a great point they all did die so it should not matter and as long as he got the permission slip handed in it doesn't matter if the person is dead or alive. and Sirius was alive when he signed it so i don't think it matters if he goes to hogmeade or not
I think he should be still able to go. Why not. It's been signed once so why should he have to sign it again?
I agree...just because Serius is dead doesn't make the form he signed mean nothing less....he should be allowed to go to Hogsmead.....since he has no one else to tell him he can't....
This is just a guess, but maybe you only need to get the permission once. Or maybe they dont really care that he died. If you get permission once to go on a field trip and the day before the field trip the persion who signed the paper died, you would still be able to go onto the field trip. Maybe it is the same no matter what relm you are in.
I think the main reason he was kept from going in the first place was that Sirius Black was supposedly after him. Once Sirius signed the form, he was allowed to go. I don't think it really matters that Sirius died--Harry would still be able to go. Sirius was the reason he wasn't supposed to go in the first place, and now that he is dead, Harry should still get to go.
He had the papers signed so why not let him go. It wasn't like anyone was going to attack Harry with all of those Aurors everywhere and all the protection the school still had so its pretty safe to say for Harry being able to still go is fine.
When I saw this topic I thought it would refer to the dangers of letting Harry go to Hogsmeade with Voldemort on the loose. The permission did not die with Sirius. Also, Professor McGonagall would have had ample time to confirm from Sirius himself during the OotP that he gave Harry permission for as long as Harry was at Hogwarts.
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