Exactly. And worse, it's not even evidence! But that's just why it could be so powerful. Imagine if Snape is loyal to DD, how powerful the message of forgiveness and trust will come through!

Where has Dumbledore misplaced his trust in the past? I can't remember a place where he did this. The imposter Moody isn't misplaced trust. Dumbledore trusted Moody, but was hoodwinked. I'm not saying he can't be hoodwinked, but his trust in Moody proved solid. He says at the end of GoF that he knew it was not Moody the moment the man took Harry out of his sight. He didn't doubt Moody himself or his own trust in him for one second, because he knew him well.

EDIT>> Ok, Lupin betrayed his trust by not telling him about the Marauder's doings. Still, I don't think this was done with intentions to work against Dumbledore, so it wasn't so much an act of treachery, but one of stupidity. Lupin didn't mean Dumbledore harm, so Dumbledore's trust in his good intentions were was not ill-founded. Everone is human, so that doesn't mean that once you have DD's trust you will never disappoint him, he just trusts that if you do, you are making a mistake, not willfully deceiving him out of malice. Lupin would never have killed Dumbledore in cold blood - and Dumbledore trusted in that. He trusted Snape in the same way, except I think he wanted Snape to kill him for reasons mentioned before in this trial.<<EDIT

No, maybe I wouldn't trust them, but Dumbledore would. Yes, the message is exactly that - don't judge people by how they appear, there is probably stuff going on that you don't even know about. Especially when Dumbledore is convinced of that person's loyalty.

Other than most people, Dumbledore would be prepared to trust someone's intentions if he had reason, despite how nasty they might be. The fact that Dumbledore trusts Snape does not automatically mean Harry should trust him, no. It means that Harry should make an effort to look past Snape's unfair actions to see that in essence, he isn't evil, just maybe a git. Dumbledore has made mistakes, but never in his trust of someone's essential loyalty. If his greatest attribute, the fact that he forgives and trusts, is flawed, it would undoubtedly send out the message that you should distrust someone because of who they seem to be, without bothering to try to understand.

The [why] shouldn't be there. I'm asking if Harry really did trust Dumbledore with his life, seeing as he didn't trust his judgement. Imagine this hypothetical situation: Dumbledore asks Harry if he trusted him with his life. I'm sure Harry would have said yes. But then Dumbledore calls Snape, and as part of some weird plan, Harry is given over to Snape's mercy and Dumbledore disappears. If Harry doesn't trust Snape now, and fights him or tries to escape, does he trust Dumbledore with his life? Dumbledore obviously thought Harry's life was in safe hands, which is why he is entrusting Harry's life to Snape. If Harry doesn't trust Dumbledore's judgement here, he isn't trusting Dumbledore with his life, because the two are now meshed.

Well besides the little matter of him trusting Lupin to behave himself while at Hogwarts (trust is trust, betrayed is betrayed. Lupin knew exactly what he was doing and admitted he betrayed DD's trust), there is case of the Dursleys.

Dumbledore trusted them to raise Harry as their own, to love and care for him, to give him the letter DD left, and to explain about his parents. He trusted them so much that he appears to have never even looked in on Harry to make sure he was been properly cared for! (or does anyone dare suggest Dumbledore knew all about his treatment and was comfortable enough with it to let it ride?)

Then there was his trusting Mundungus Fletcher to watch over Harry at the beginning of book five.

So as you can see from these examples alone, DD has trusted people who have failed him.

But getting back to Serverus, as mentioned previously, Dumbledore trusted Snape to teach Harry the very important skill of Occlumency. While it can be reasonably argued that Snape's failure was at least as much Harry's fault as Snape's, that Snape stopped trying has to be seen as letting Dumbldore down and failing that trust.

He also appears to have been the one to 'let slip' that Lupin was a werewolf at the end of POA. I am assuming that DD wanted this kept secrect, but it is not unlikely.

Dumbledore is not infallible. He has made mistakes, some huge. It is not inconceivable that he was 'hoodwinked' into trusting Snape more than he deserved. It is also not inconceivable to think Snape may have had another change of heart after earning that trust (and may do so again).

As for the trust by association, Harry can trust Dumbledore with his life but still believe DD is wrong about Snape, even if it does seem hypocritical. That is in fact what he did in the books.

It is safe to say that should your hypothetic situation have occurred, Harry would have trusted his own feelings about Snape and chosen not to put his life into those hands, just as he chose to suspect Snape of wrong doing, despite Dumbledore's assurances, and took steps to counter Snape.

I think DD's trust is evidence, and quite strong evidence at that, but it must be recognised as the possibly misplaced trust of one fallible man.

I'm not going to suggest that he knew and let it ride, BUT, I am going to suggest that this isn't an instance of trust-it's an instance of hope. Dumbledore hoped that the Dursley's would treat Harry as thier own. Dumbledore did not know the Dursley's enough to place his trust or mistrust in them. He had a situation that needed immediate attention, he made a decision: A decision that will be hard pressed to be proven wrong. No, Harry was not treated as he should have been, but I think he is a better person for it, instead of an arrogant, please-me, I'm-the-king-of-the-world boy. We've seen Harry battling pride in, at least, the last three books-I can imagine how different he might have been had he been raised in a different environment.

People are not infallable, and trust is a two-way street. Dumbledore gave orders and expected those orders to be carried out-but, obviously, that wasn't always the case. Perhaps we saw, with the Mundungus situation, that Dumbledore didn't always leave to chance a trust in someone untrustworthy, as Mundungus was, because he also had Mrs. Figg looking out for him.

As far as Snape "letting it slip" that Remus was a werewolf-I think that's a better plot device than some for keeping the position of DADA cursed to one year stints. Dumbledore has never once said that Snape is without faults and is incapable of making unwise decisions. He's never even claimed that for himself. Snape does, at times, let past grievances rule his present actions. But don't we all do that, to a point?

Call me stubborn, but I still don't think that Dumbledore would continue trusting in Snape if he had seen (and did see) some of Snape's actions and responses to others, Harry, Lupin, and Sirius even; unless he had an iron-clad reason for doing so. Dumbledore is neither blind nor stupid . . .er, was neither blind nor stupid. Why is it that Harry could so easliy see through Snape's argued disguise while Dumbledore continued to be duped? It doesn't add up or make sense.

You could apply that argument to every instance of trust that exists and so say nobody trusts anybody ever. He entrusted Harry to their care and, it appears, did not check up on them; that's trust.

Why doesn't it make sense? You may rest assured Snape never treated Dumbledore the way he treated Harry. His true nature was forced on Harry, making him doubt everything about Snape,whereas Snape spent time and effort convincing DD of his 'good' side. Harry hated Snape and this is why he chose not to completely accept what he was told about him. Very reasonable in the circumstances.

Remember Harry wasn't the only one to doubt Snape's intentions. Despite DD's assurances, doubts still existed in some people's minds.

Not normal for a wizard. He trusted that blood would count enough for the Dursleys to raise Harry as their own, and to a certain degree he was right - they did not just get rid of him (could that have been the magic he invoked working on them? It certainly wasn't in their nature).

There is another discussion thread that talks about why mistreatment made Harry turn out good but Tom Riddle bad (Voldemort: Portrait of a serial killer), but don't you think that if you ask somebody to do something important, and you do not take steps to ensure that they do it, you are trusting them? DD gave the Dursleys a letter and asked them to tell Harry everything, and they did not. He asked them to raise Harry as their own, and they did not.

I would also like to point out that DD appears to have a bit of an arrogant streak in him. His actions in deciding what is best for Harry smack of a person who, once they have made up their mind, don't change it easily. Look at how he treated the warnings from Harry about Malfoy. He was arrogant enough to believe that Draco would not succeed because of the actions he had taken to protect the school, and so dissmissed Harry's warnings abitarily.

The prosecution submits that DD is just a man. A man who has admitted to making big mistakes. His trust is a powerful arguement, but it is not enough to negate the possibility that Snape tricked him.

DD was a man who was fooled for a whole year by a teacher possessed by Voldemort, a second year by a man impersonating another teacher (and friend!), and for thirteen years believed James Potter had been betrayed by his best friend, Siruis Black.

His habit of believing the best in people kept him blinded to the true nature of the beast and helped him excuse and forgive actions and attitudes that others clearly saw as wrong (In Snape and the Dursleys).

Very compassionate, to be sure, but not always correct.

If you look at it that way, it is entirely believable that he make a mistake and trusted Severus Snape too much, too long, or for the wrong reasons.

How can you dispute something that comes straight from JKR herself? I agree with the rest of your post, that we haven't seen a great deal of redemption thus far, but you can't argue with the woman who created him in the first place. If that redemption hasn't materialised thus far, and he is firmly in the evil camp at the moment, what other redemption can he have other than back to the side of good? He must redeem himself somehow. Now that doesn't mean he is still on Dumbledore's side working some convoluted plan, but it does mean that no matter what camp Snape starts book 7 off in, I think we can be assured that he will, in some way, redeem himself before the end. That's the only reasonable conclusion we can draw at this stage, I think. Everything else is based on interpretation and can be argued about till the cows come home

With regard to Dumbledore leaving Harry with the Dursley's, I think it's very simple - he no doubt knew that Petunia was a bit of a prat. But he also knew that Harry needed the protection that being with her afforded him. He knew that Voldemort would, one day, come back and if he came back when Harry was three, or six, or ten, before he was old enough for Hogwarts, then by being at the Dursley's, he was protected. Why he's had to return there after GoF, I don't know - it's something that has always confused me to be honest. Nonetheless, Dumbledore must have felt it to be in Harry's best interests for him to return there. Granted, the Dursley's have never been very nice to him, but they haven't abused him or caused him physical harm. They've been cruel and unkind, yes, but Harry has obviously not been affected by that because he's a fairly well rounded little chap, unlike Dudley, who has been loved so much that he's now spoilt - testament to what too much love can do for you.

That rather off topic ramble is basically saying that you can't cast aspertions on Dumbledore's decision making abilities using the Dursley's as evidence. After all, Harry is still alive, is he not? He's well developed, is he not? And he's far stronger for the experiences.

I don't deny what anyone has said about Snape telling everyone about Lupin's lycanthropy...it was nasty and small-minded of him to do that, but it was a personal grudge. He felt very aggrieved over that - why? Because he missed out on his Order of Merlin, probably. Why would a wizarding accolade mean so much to him anyway? Accolades mean nothing to Malfoy - look at his behaviour throughout HBP. He couldn't care less about grades or Quidditch because he knew he was part of something bigger. Why would Snape care about a stupid Order of Merlin when he knew that Voldemort was still out there somewhere, waiting to come back? He was hurt and he was angry, so he lashed out at Lupin to ruin things for him. It's not justified, I know, but that guy took some serious abuse from the Marauders in school and I have never blamed him for the way he felt about Sirius and Lupin. It's not justifiable, but it's understandable - just like Dumbledore, Snape is human too.

As for the occlumancy, it would have been in his best interests for Harry to keep up with that, had he really been on Voldemort's side. He would have tried his hardest to make Harry block out what he was seeing for fear that Dumbledore would figure out what was going on. But he didn't - he gave up. When? Right after Harry sees what JKR labelled as 'Snape's Worst Memory'. We had a glimpse of Snape in a fury such as we have never seen before then - doesn't showing that level of emotion fly in the face of everything he was trying to teach Harry? Snape was embarrased, hurt and humiliated and, as is usual, the first line of defence is attack - he lashed out and refused to teach him anymore.

If Snape is guilty of anything, it's only being human.

In the big things - things that could have dire consequences for other people, he has always, always done the right thing. He saved Harry in the PS, he told the Order where Harry was going in OotP, he gave Umbridge fake VTM, he helped Dumbledore extract the truth from Barty Crouch - these are big things, beyond himself. Where he is weak is when he can get away with his personal grudges - making Harry's life miserable, being sour and nasty. You can be all those things, and still be a good person when it counts.

After all, the Dursley's are horrible people, yes, but I don't think you can label them evil. They certainly have protected Harry and looked after him - grudgingly, yes, but nonetheless they did it. Because it was the right thing to do. I don't think Snape is any different.

Plus, of course, we can't overlook how many times during HBP where JKR uses 'hate' and 'revulsion' to describe actions or feelings from Harry as well as Snape - I don't think that's a parallel that can be so easily ignored. (for reference, I believe the first time Harry looks at anything with 'hatred' and 'revulsion' is in the first Pensieve memory that Dumbledore shows him, when Marvolo is being cruel to Merope. Then also, of course, in the Lightning-Struck Tower.) Why would JKR use the same words to describe both such seemingly antithetical characters?

Because she didn't say it. She didn't confirm or deny it, she just said she was stunned it was said.

Not when Voldemort was trying to make Harry see images as part of his plan. Voldy knew that DD was onto him (because of the OotP guards) and needed another way to get in. Manipulating Harry through dreams was his way.

For a supposedly wise fellow, it would seem that DD could have found a better way to have Harry raised. If DD's wishes had been met by the Dursleys, Harry would have been raised to be exactly like Dudley! (Now there would have been a candidate for Slytherin). Surely this indicates he did not judge the Dursley's accurately.

Nobody has said he did know. In his confession to Naccissa he said he thought Voldemort was gone, and was just trying to survive by keeping on DD's good side. An order of Merlin would have gone a long way to helping him get out from behind DD's skirts - a humiliation he had lived with for a dozen years - and the best part was, if he knew Sirius was not a DE, he wasn't even betraying one of Voldemort's followers in turning him in, while at the same time getting revenge on an enemy. Win-win for Snape.
No wonder he was so angry at being foiled.

Well this is debatable. The right thing by who? He did not do the right thing when he refused to listen to Harry/Lupin/Hermione/Ron in POA. He did not do the right thing when he stopped trying to teach Harry Occulemcy, he did not do the right thing when he mistreated any child, the list goes on.

I still have reservations about his timing and motivation in informing the Order of Harry's dissapearence (and if he really did go into the forrest to look for Harry - but that's a different matter). It is possible he was once again trying to get Sirius killed by 'cashing in' on Voldemort's plan.

Giving Umbridge fake Veritaserum made sense, since Umbridge wanted to know where Siruis was. If Harry had taken Veritaserum, there was a fair chance the she would have found out that Snape also knew - bad news for Snape.

He had no reason not to try and get the truth from Crouch, especially since he was at that point still keeping in DD's favour, had been told to help, and had no idea what was going on.

Something else that I notice a lot of people saying. Snape did not save Harry, Hermione did. Snape was trying to counter the spell, and may have succeeded, given more time, but it was ultimately Hermione's actions that stopped Quirrell - nitpicking true, but it bothers me that Snape is getting all the credit for succeeding when he appears to have just slowed Quirrell down enough for somebody else to (inadvertently) save Harry.

She was running out of ideas maybe? No, I agree that she used almost the exact same description on purpose, but I say it was to juxtapose the completely opposite personalities of Harry and Snape.

Snape's proven nasty and small mindedness is exactly what makes him more likely to be following the Slytherin path. It no doubt contributed to his becoming a Death Eater in the first place, and I submit is a powerful force for him becoming one again.

Granted, but she wouldn't be stunned if there was nothing in it

Yes, towards the end he was, once he'd realised the nature of the connection, but still, why would Snape tell Harry what he needed to do to help shut it down? He expressly told Harry how important it was that he keep Voldemort out of his head and perhaps there was also a certain amount of frustration on his part that he failed - Snape doesn't seem the type of person to tolerate failure very well.

But there was no one else of Harry's blood who could have afforded him the protection he needed. The Dursley's was really the only possible choice he could have made. Of course, there is a whole school of thought that suggests that Dumbledore has always known from the offset everything that was going to happen and has allowed things to happen as they did, knowing what the outcome would be all along. It's quite a convincing argument and formed part of the Changeling Hypothesis - which was so brilliantly on the mark that it's a wonder JKR didn't write it herself - and if we accept that DD had foresight, then putting Harry with the Dursley's wouldn't have been such a risk.

But he lied. Of course he knew - he must have, unless he was an idiot. Think about it - the PS...Quirrel had Voldemort on the back of his head. If he didn't know throughout that year, then he certainly knew at the end of it. He must have, all the teachers would have. He felt the Dark Mark burn in GoF - before he chose to help DD extract info from Crouch. He must have known Voldemort was still around.

Ah, but none of these would have resulted in death. No-one is saying Snape isn't petty - he is. Very. But I think, given his past, it's justified.

Mmm....yeah....I'm going to skip this one, because it burns uncomfortably close to the source of my belief in Snape and I can't really refute that, so....

I was going to say something else then, but it's completely gone now...darn it...if it comes back to me, I'll drop back and edit...

EDIT : Ooh, yeah...Pettigrew....

His being in Snape's house. Pettigrew is a very weak link in Voldmort's chain, isn't he? He is indebted to Harry and tried, in GoF, to convince LV to choose someone else. Clearly, he's afraid and he's liable to turn to whichever side looks as though they're winning. I have a whole theory about why he joined the DE's in the first place, but this isn't the place...suffice it to say that I don't think he's truly on LV's side at all. He's weak and easily manipulated.

Now, of all the people to be together, we have Snape and Pettigrew. Two people who were either close to Dumbledore, or who are wavering in their support of LV. Why was Pettigrew there? Why would Snape be so anxious that whatever he should tell Narcissa and Bella not be overheard? Couldn't possibly be because he was lying and Pettigrew might have taken it back to Voldemort? Or could it be because Pettigrew's mind is easier to get into, Snape didn't want LV to be aware of the Vow he made and thus didn't want Pettigrew to overhear it? He's defying LV's wishes to protect the son of a friend...doesn't sound very Death-Eater-ish to me....

So what are Snape and Pettigrew there for? You've got to wonder, don't you?

Because she couldn't believe people were looking for good in a character that she always portrayed as nasty maybe?

Because he had been told to by DD but at that point had very little faith in Harry been good enough to keep Voldemort out.

Only in regards to the protection, which DD himself invoked. If DD knew what was coming, why didn't he do something to make the Dursley's treat Harry at least a little bit better? Is anyone suggesting that the only way Harry could have been raised as a 'good' person was to be abused as a child?

This is a very good point. Since the story of Harry and the SS was widely spread, why didn't everybody know Voldemort was still around? Obviously very few people actually believed it, but you would have thought others, especially DE's that where still at large, would have made an effort to track Voldemort down. Since Petegrew did it in a very short period of time, it would seem finding him was not that hard. This, unfortunately, seems to be a very large plot hole that sinks all arguments about who knew what.
As for the mark in GOF, Snape should have known Voldemort was back the second Voldemort touched Wormtail's mark and summond him, so didn't he immediately run to DD? More likely was that Snape was still hedging his bets. He did not know exactly what had happened at that point, and chose to take a better safe than sorry path. Either that or it is another plot hole.

This was something I was thinking about earlier - trust. In Spinner's End, Bellatrix does not trust Snape. Wormtail is listening at his door - perhaps because he doesn't trust him either? (Just a thought) Harry doesn't trust him. Very few people that are fighting against Voldemort trust him, and some that are fighting with Voldemort don't trust him either. Snape has been sticking out his neck for people that don't believe at him, for people that lash out at him at every possible oppurtunity. For all of the weight that trust seems to hold for the defense, there seems to be very little of it for Snape where it counts, except with Dumbledore.

Then, Snape murders Dumbledore. He wipes out the only place where he had support. By killing him, everyone that believed in him, stopped believing. This is the action that, at least to the rest of the world, places him firmly in Voldemort's camp and marks him forever as a Death Eater.

The question that comes to my mind is, why? Why would this happen? Why would Snape choose to do this, if the people he is fighting for hate him and would kill him the moment they had the chance? Why join people who are naturally distrusting anyways?

The only answer that willl fit with this, to me, is that he is evil.

It really doesn't matter that Hermione technically saved Harry, because Snape had no knowledge of her participation in saving Harry. He, on his own, was keeping Harry on his broom (or dangling from it). Until Hermione broke Quirrel's eye-contact, Snape was saving his life. If Snape had not been uttering a countercurse, Harry would have fallen from his broom in that first instant: Good flyer or not.

I really am hoping to respond to some of these other remarks. . .time gets in my way every time!

Can't resist. . . The Dursley's were the best choice for Harry at the moment that Dumbledore had to make the decision. Dumbledore had no way of knowing that Lily would give her life for Harry; he had no way of knowing Harry would survive that attack. He couldn't premeditate what to do with the baby should such a thing occur because it was unprecidented. He had no reason to research the Dursleys. He had no reason to watch them interact. He had no way of really knowing that they were so extremely anti-wizard. By the time Mcgonagall told him that they "are the worst sort of muggles," or something to that effect, he had already placed the spell and offered Harry protection there. I think we should be thankful that Dumbledore's quick judgement has provided Harry with so much protection over the years.

Okay, now I really am off.

Because he is good, and it's the right thing to do, and the bond of loyalty he has to Dumbledore for what he's done for him - believing in him and giving him a chance when no else would - transcends death. It is purely altruistic - people don't have to do things for someone else because there's something in it for them. They do it because it's the right thing to do, the only thing their conscience will allow them to do. It speaks to a basic personality - the difference between a soldier and a psychopathic, cold blooded killer - purpose, motivation...

What about this? A little scenario that occured to me...

I spent yesterday painting my fence and listening to HBP on audio CD, which is great, because you pick up far more than you do when you read things, plus it gives you time to think, especially with the help of an actor reading out conversation, putting in inflections and things like that…but anyway, the point is that I’m more convinced than ever now of Snape’s innocence. Moreover, I also think that not only did Dumbledore know that he was dying, I think we have good cause to believe that Snape was buying him the time that he needed to impart his knowledge to Harry. I know this isn’t exactly a new thing for me to say, but I think I’ve got a bit of evidence to back this up now. In the chapter ‘Lord Voldemort’s Request’, Dumbledore succeeds in making Harry feel very bad for not trying harder to get the memory from Slughorn. And rightly so. Harry has, right up to this point, consistently chosen to doubt Dumbledore’s judgement and insist on finding out what Malfoy is up to, to the exclusion of all else – including getting that memory. This is after Harry has already been reassured :-

And then again a little later:-

Dumbledore has never shown Harry impatience before – why is he impatient? Could it be that he is tired of having his judgement questioned when there are more important things to be dealing with, considering his time is running out?

Dumbledore seems to have known, all along, what Malfoy was up to. He knows about it and he has asked Snape to watch him – which Snape was doing. However, I think Snape was having something of a personal conflict because obviously, he had made the Vow (something I’m not sure Dumbledore was aware of) and obviously he knew what Malfoy’s ultimate goal was – but he has also sworn to watch him, prevent him from hurting anyone…something he failed to do because Katie and Ron were both victims of Malfoy’s poor aim. Which makes me think that’s what the argument Hagrid overheard was all about; Dumbledore was angry because Snape was supposed to be attending more carefully to this side issue, but because of the Vow, he couldn’t ‘attend’ as well as he normally would have without alerting Malfoy to the fact that he may not have been completely on Voldemort’s side. Poor Snape was between a rock and a hard place – which is probably why Hagrid got the impression that he was overworked. Snape is finally feeling the strain.

Which brings me back to the original point – the big thing, the most important thing, was that Dumbledore’s time was running out. It’s why he also got angry with Harry that he was continually questioning him about Snape and Malfoy – he wanted Harry to trust his judgement and focus on the horcruxes. If Harry had gotten that memory earlier, then they could have gone to retrieve the locket before Malfoy had the chance to fix that cabinet and allow Death Eaters into the school. But Harry didn’t trust Dumbledore completely, he delayed, giving Malfoy the opportunity to succeed. Snape must have done his best to watch him, but he couldn’t stop his completely without endangering himself, Narcissa and Draco. Voldemort would have killed them all.

So, I think Dumbledore knew what was coming. I think that curse from the ring was fatal and someone – probably Snape – is buying him the time he needs. He had planned for the eventuality that Draco would succeed in penetrating Hogwarts defences, which is why he sent for Snape, and only Snape, during the ‘Lightning Struck Tower’ chapter. Only Snape could finish what Malfoy started. It was the only possible way out for all of them. Dumbledore was dying anyway, Malfoy and Snape would both be in danger if one of them didn’t carry out Voldemort’s order and Harry’s chance of learning about the horcruxes would have been completely lost. There was so much at stake here, but Dumbledore must have understood that from the outset.

One more thing – I don’t think that Snape knew that Harry had his potions book, though I do find it hard to believe that something that would have been so precious to him he would leave lying around. If he had known, he wouldn’t have needed to use legilimancy to extract that info from Harry. But when he *did* find out, he must have been the biggest idiot on the planet to believe that the book Harry gave him was really his. He would have known, and had he really been on Voldemort’s side, he would have insisted that Harry told him the truth, but he didn’t. He let Harry get away with it and only gave him detention? After doing what he did? It’s hardly fitting. Which only leaves two possibilities – either he didn’t want Dumbledore to find out how Harry had been using Dark magic (unlikely, because Dumbledore would have found out what happened anyway, and would have known the origin of the spell) or he didn’t really want to punish Harry that badly. Perhaps he was hoping that the shock of what he had done would wake him up, make him stop trailing Malfoy and concentrate on the task Dumbledore had set him.

Let’s also not forget what Lupin said at the Weasley’s during Christmas – not only does he trust Dumbledore’s judgement about Snape, but he also recounts a personal reason for not doubting him – that he made the Wolfsbane potion for him every month, without fail. It would have been a perfect opportunity for him to fiddle with it and get Lupin thrown out – if Lupin had transformed and killed someone, Snape could very easily have claimed that Lupin forgot to take it and Lupin, being the way he is, would have been so upset if he’d have hurt someone, he could very easily have been ‘convinced’ that maybe he had forgotten to take it, or not taken it at precisely the right time – Snape’s a resourceful guy, he could have thought of something.

This all made perfect sense to me as I was painting and contemplating… I’m not sure that I’ve communicated it to well, but it kind of made sense of quite a few aspects of HBP to me, from the connection between Malfoy, Snape and Dumbledore to the Vow, to Harry, to Dumbledore’s final moments.

What do you think?

Ooh, just to respond to a couple of points..

I didn't mean to imply that he was - I was merely remarking on the strange sequence of events that would lead the two 'weak' links in a chain to be together - Pettigrew, who we know is indebted to Harry, and Snape, who we have doubts about anyway. I think they're both going to turn on Voldemort, in the end, wherever their true loyalties are right now.

Indeed it does That's an excellent point, Capricorn. I don't think the fact that Voldemort has a piece of both Harry and Pettigrew within him is insignificant. Just I don't think Snape being with Pettigrew, of all people, is a coincidence either. Read into it what you will, but I do think there's something there.

I remember thinking this after my very first reading of HBP. It was, to me, the only thing that made any sense. JKR went to such lengths to make sure we understood that Dumbledore was not himself, that he was in pain and having a hard time healing from his wounds. In my mind, there was no doubt that Dumbledore was dying from the very beginning of the book, somehow remaining alive to complete what he thought he had to before passing on, something which he did not fear.

His impatience with Harry's obsession with Malfoy's actions and questions about Snape's loyalties were, in my mind, not only because he had already answered Harry's concerns and was getting fed up with Harry wasting time instead of proceeding with his assigned quest, but also because he knew time was short and because he was in constant pain. Dumbledore's asking for Snape in "The Lightning Struck Tower" indicated to me that Snape had been taking care of Dumbledore, helping him stay alive long enough for him to pass information on to Harry. Had Dumbledore simply been hurting from retrieving the locket in the cave, would he not have asked for Madam Pomfrey instead? She is, after all, the school nurse. Why ask specifically for Snape?

Have to agree with Louise here. Which I seem to do a lot... I'll go a step further and say that, in my opinion, Dumbledore did know what Malfoy was up to...

Let's go back a bit to "Spinner's End." Could it be that Snape's hesitation at taking the vow to finish Draco's task if he proved unable to do so himself was only foreshadowing the dislike for what Dumbledore had already asked him to do when the time came (i.e.: "kill him on the tower)? This may be a bit of a stretch, but what if Dumbledore already knew what Voldemort had asked of Draco prior to Snape making the Unbreakable Vow but after Dumbledore had destroyed the ring and been mortally wounded, only staying alive with Snape's help? Would Dumbledore not have been able to foresee the events as they unfolded as a very likely possibility? One which he may have discussed with Snape?

Back on the Tower, if we accept the above, Dumbledore's request to have Snape fetched makes perfect sense in that it keeps Draco from carrying out his assigned task (which still leaves him as a not so nice young man, but still not a murderer), it makes Snape appear as a loyal Death Eater, but most importantly it allows him to fulfil the vow saving him from death himself. As Dumbledore is already dying, and seeing as he wouldn't think twice about sacrificing himself for others, he asked Snape to kill him (I'm still baffled as to why the Avada Kedavra spell didn't "look" the same as other iterations thereof...) in front of the Death Eaters. Could it be that Snape uttered the AK, but was really casting a spell to nullify the effects of whatever spell/potion he may have been using to keep Dumbledore alive?

And why would Dumbledore have immobilized Harry and silenced him while all this was going on if not to prevent him from stopping the events from unfolding as planned?

As a lot of these posts are, a lot of this is not new, but rahter my attempt at bringing new analysis to the thread. Somehow, I'm guessing this may have been postulated before...

I'm off to find myself a fence to paint now...

You know, a lot of people on the defense keep saying this, but I have to tell you: I don't see it. Sure, it was clear that Dumbledore was in pain, but he never seemed actually physically weaker than normal, apart from his hand. There are people who are in pain on a daily basis, but they are not dying.

Remember, Dumbledore said that with the Horcrux defenses, Voldemort would not want to immediately kill the person. He would have wanted to find out why they were so interested in getting the Horcrux first, and then kill them. With the potion in the cave, my belief is that Dumbledore would have stayed alive, kept in a state between life and death before Voldemort revived him. (Or he was given water from the lake.) As with the prophecy, Voldemort has shown he will spare people's lives (Harry's) to get information.

I'd have to disagree with you there. Dumbledore clearly did not know everything Malfoy was doing, as shown in the Lightning-Struck Tower. If he did, it would have been all too easy to stop him. Dumbledore's mistake tha led to his death was his underestimation of Malfoy's determination. It took him all year, but Malfoy finished his task.

He did not believe Malfoy would succeed, so this does not make much sense.

Snape could not continue to please both sides. If he killed Dumbledore and stayed loyal to him, then he would have continued to raise suspicion among the Death Eaters, not to mention having to be hunted by the side he was fighting for. But if he truly joined Voldemort, he could support him fully and not be suspected. True, either way he would be attacked by the Order, but the one thing they don't have that the Death Eaters do is a superpowerful leader. By killing Dumbledore, he has weakend the Order greatly, and given the side he is with niw a powerful edge. As of now, Snape's best choice for survivial: Voldemort.

The thing is, Dumbledore's physical health is something that was never ever compromised on before. He was growing tired, and Harry noticed this once or twice at most in one book, but this time round it was much more obvious that something wasn't right. It started right at the beginning in the second chapter, when none other than Severus Snape himself said that dumbledore was weakening. After that, it was a constant question - why and how had something managed to hurt Dumbledore so badly? And what followd logically, imo, the question - was his end drawing near?

The Order always spoke with awe of his greatness and followed him with all their hearts. Jo had painted a picture of a man who almost always had an answer and was always in control. He was, after all, the only wizard Voldemort ever feared. And yet, though his positive energy and powerful aura remained untouched, his physical health was must have been caving in, if something could have made his hand die. Take then all the evidence Louise has sited, and it's impossible to say that his death (and his knowledge of it), in literary terms, wasn't foreshadowed. And goodness, if the readers can figure that out, Dumbledore can.

True, but it doesn't change anything to the fact that Dumbledore's health might have been degenerating already.

He didn't want to stop him, because then Voldemort would certainly kill Malfoy. Dumbledore wanted to give him the chance to try to kill him, so that Draco could realise he wasn't a killer after all. This would have saved Snape and Draco and Narcissa, like Louise said, because their cover wouldn't have been blown if it looked as though Malfoy had succeeded in at least cornering Dumbledore. Even more, it would afford Draco the opportunity to choose for the good side.

And Malfoy didn't succeed - he was right, so imo, it makes a lot of sense.

How would he continue to raise suspicion? To the eyes of the world, he is faithful to Voldemort, having 'proved' it to the D-E's. They wouldn't be able to understand that Dumbledore wasn't afraid of death, so Snape wasn't necessarily doing him in.

They don't have 'the Chosen One'. Harry has love on his side, while Voldemort has a lust for power that drives him. I believe that love will conquer all. Dumbledore believed Harry could do it, I believe love can do it, and therefore that Harry can do it. Do they need a superpowerful leader, if they have what really matters?

Yeah, but what if, to Snape too, 'death is but the next greatest adventure'? If he were good, that is no issue, so it isn't conflicting to our case. We believe that Snape is on the good side, which means that we believe he doesn't fear death. Surviving isn't a factor then.

Couldn't agree more there. I think Dumbledore knew what Malfoy was up to and didn't stop him for the very reason Capricorn mentioned above. Also, Malfoy did not succeed in his assigned task. Snape cast the spell that led to Dumbledore's death.

Interesting take, though, Stonesorcerer. You had me thinking I was off my head there...

But Snape, no matter what side he ends up on in the end, is going to do what is best for Snape. He's the only person that he cares about right now. In Prince he was backed into a corner and had to make a choice. There's a possibility that he could return to the Order even after killing Dumbledore, which is why I believe he left Harry alive during their duel.

Not killing Dumbledore would've been unforgivable by Voldemort's standards, because Voldemort would've known that Snape wasn't on his side anymore. Killing Dumbledore was the best thing that Snape could've done at the time for himself.

I think that he was going to wait out Malfoy, see if he was going to succeed, and if the time came, either save or kill Dumbledore, depending on what was best at that time and how much of the truth would get back to Voldemort. Then the Vow came and forced him to pick sides right then and there.

Basically it comes down to the fact that Snape is out for only Snape. Whichever side win's, Snape'll be on that team. That's why I think he'll redeem himself somehow, so that when the dust settles he's in good with the survivors, and obviously I think that the Order will be the victors.

As for Malfoy, I don't think that either Snape nor Dumbledore knew exactly what was up. I think his goal was known, but nobody expected him to succeed. Snape's conversation during the Christmas party seems to show that he didn't know what Malfoy was up too, and if Snape didn't, then Dumbledore didn't.

Dumbledore told Malfoy on top of the tower that he could say one word and Narcissa and Draco would be wisked away into hiding, and when Lucius got out, he'd be brought to them. Dumbledore and the Order had the means to keep the Malfoy's alive if Draco didn't succeed.

Malfoy had doubts about exactly how far he could go in order to serve Voldemort and save his mother. His crying in the bathroom shows that he was growing frantic to try and save his mom, and himself. I think he also doubted that he had the guts to actually Avada Kedavra somebody face to face.

And on the tower, he was waiting for Death Eaters before attacking Dumbledore, and before Dumbledore said anything to him about it. No, I don't think that you can argue Dumbledore was risking his own life so that Draco would be a better person; there are easier way's to do that, and alll Dumbledore needed to worry about right then was Draco's survival.

I apologize for sort of rambling, I've a lot of view's on Snape, but I'm having a hard time getting them coherent.

How can you not see it?! Dumbledore wasn't himself throughout the whole book. I find it very strange that his hand was permanently damaged like that in a world where bones can be regrown, cracked skulls can be repaired overnight and...well, everything that happens there basically! It's magic, after all... My question is why this information dumping now, after all this time? Why write this book at all? Why not save the whole horcrux thing until the final book, minus Malfoy's duplicity and all this smoke and mirrors stuff about Snape if it didn't have an overall impact on the books as a whole? Dumbledore chose to information dump now - not in book seven or book five, but now...what made him choose to tell Harry all this? Why the issue of time? Why did Dumbledore start losing his temper with Harry? It's very un-characteristic for him to do that, when Harry has given him more than ample opportunities to lose patience before now.

I take your point about the potion, but as we don't really know what that potion was (has anyone taken a look through the Lexicon to see if we can figure out what it might be, BTW?) any conclusions we make about it effects would be pure supposition. I think Dumbledore was dying before that...if not actually dying, then he was severely weakened at the very least. That curse must have really taken it out of him - he was prepared to take risks with himself, as his insisting on drinking the potion proved. He didn't care what happened to him, so long as Harry continued his quest for the horcruxes because that's all that mattered. As Ron said in PS, Harry has to face Voldemort. Not him, not Hermione - Harry and Harry alone. That's been obvious from the start, which is why I've always believed that Dumbledore had to die, but anyway...

Yeah, okay, I'll admit that I had my doubts about that when I posted it. All the same, you have to at least acknowledge that he was aware that Malfoy was up to something - Harry told him. Dumbledore said that Harry had not told him anything that he was concerned about. Arrogant? Dismissive? Quite possibly - but it serves to illustrate that Dumbledore's mind was very firmly fixed upon two things - Harry and the Horcruxes. His fate didn't matter. Now, whether he was dying from the curse or whether he knew that someone was out to get him doesn't really matter - what does matter is that he seemed to know his time was coming.

No, I agree - the time has to come when eventually, you must choose a side and stand by them, revealing your true colours. But that's where Jo is so brilliant as misdirection - she couldn't have made it more obvious which side Snape is on at the end of HBP, which is precisely why it's more likely that he's still on the good side in spirit, if not in person. However, I disagree that the DE's would continue to be suspicious - how much more loyalty could he possibly have shown? He just killed Dumbledore - surely it doesn't come much more loyal than that? In any case, none of the DE's trust anyone else by their very nature...they're all Slytherins, after all.

I think you're putting too much store in Dumbledore and the Order. Their role is important, yes, but anything they ultimately do will only be a support action to Harry, who is the only one with "unique weapons" to defeat Voldemort. He hasn't weakened the Order - if anything, he has instilled within them a fierce determination to defeat Voldemort and all his followers. As for Snape's best choice of survival, I really don't think he cares about that any more than Dumbledore cared about his life. To be afraid for his survival would imply that he is fearful of his own death at the hands of the Order - he's far too arrogant to believe that the Order would ever pose a threat to a wizard as great as him. Look at the way he reacted at the end of HBP - how proud he was...I don't think that pride was an act at all. He is supremely arrogant and confident in his abilities. He fought off Harry very easily - a boy who supposedly has the skills to defeat his apparent master. Why would he fear anyone else?

Yes, I'm beginning to think that that's probably right. But I do think they both knew the end result, they just didn't know the precise path he was walking to get there. But I think they both probably underestimated him, which was definitely a mistake. Perhaps this was one of the "emotional mistakes" Dumbledore made that JKR mentioned.

You know, I thought that part was exceptionally touching I agree - Malfoy was having doubts. His desire was to avenge his father and save himself and his mother - he, in short, cares for other people. Which isn't particularly Slytherin of him, but he is power hungry, he's recognition hungry - his desire to get into the Slug Club proves that. I just think that he's also a coward who lacked the guts to see the thing through to the end. All he was interested in at the end there was making sure that Dumbledore knew he'd gotten the upper hand, he'd beaten him. He may very well have tried casting the curse, but what if he had failed? Wouldnt the other DE's have seen that Malfoy tried to AK someone, but lacked whatever it was that he needed to make the curse work?

Perhaps we need to be looking more closely at the AK - why did Snape's spell blast Dumbledore right off the tower, but Moody says that if one of the kids tried to AK him, he'd probably just get a nose bleed? What exactly do you need for an AK to work? Would the fact that Malfoy couldn't do it properly have told Voldemort something about him that could have put him in worse danger than his failing to cast the curse at all?

Definately, but not neccessarily because time is running out. He is likely just fed up with Harry disagreeing.

You completely lost me on this. Malfoy did know about the vow, but still refused to let Snape help him. So what could Snape possibly do to "alert" him?

Where did this come from exactly? I must have missed that part of the vow.

Why not another Death Eater, or the poison itself? If DD died from other than Snape's hand, do you think Snape would have died because of the vow? If the vow was that powerful, since Snape didn't help Malfoy achieve his goal of getting DE into Hogwarts, shouldn't he already be dead?

There is no indication that the memory was holding DD up. He already had the ring, so he knew Voldemort had made more than one horcrux, and he was already searching for others.

At this point he was still working to keep DD happy. Why would he risk doing something that could have resulted in the deaths of students (or possibly endangered his own life)? Had students died, you can be sure DD would have thoroughly investigated.

DD may have sent Harry for Snape for very logical reasons; he is the very well versed in both the Dark Arts and Potions, making him the best qualified. No 'better' reason is required.

Why? If Snape had forced the truth out of Harry, the book may have been found by DD and Snape's involvement exposed (Slughorn, DD or someone else would surely have recognised Snape's distinctive hand writing). Maybe Malfoy's attempt at casting an unforgiveable would have come out and Snape was 'vow bound' to protect him.

The only way to learn about the Horcruxes is from Snape or Draco? That doesn't seem reasonable, especially since DD himself traced the two he found through other means.

Could it be that they are both Voldemort's most trusted or worthy? (Wormtail done something no other DE even tried, brought Voldy back, that makes him very special)

Now up to the lastest post.

Well we actually have never really seen that much of Dumbledore, so maybe this was what is normally like.

As with Bill (and probably Madeye), cursed bits don't fix easily.

Because there was only one book left and lot of ground to cover. It is also probable that DD had realised he needed help to get the horcruxes, especially after losing his hand on one of them.

We have heard of Dumbledore loosing his temper a few other times in the books, but he have never spent this much time alone with Harry before. Once again, maybe this is what he is normally like and we are only now seeing it.

I disagree. Harry might be the only one who can defeat Voldy, but as we saw in OotP, Dumbledore and order can limit the damage he and his DE can do. The ministry has been hopeless.

Re Snape's fear: I think like all bullies(and all Slytherin?), he is at heart a coward. That's why he blew his top when Harry called him that.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but hasn't JKR been inconsistent with her spells and their effect before? Specifically the expelliamus spell. (Then there is the number of times she has had people do wandless magic). I'd say this was poetic license to make for a more dramatic scene and nothing more, after all, DD just slumping lifelss to the ground would be a bit of an anticlimax in comparison, and Harry would not have been as motivated to give chase had the corpse still be lying around. His first instinct would be to check on DD (ust in case).

I am certain DD was bluffing about knowing what Malfoy was doing, otherwise he would have made the connection with Madam Rosemeta, and possibly made the offer to Malfoy to hide his mother in secret. As others have said, it would have been easy for DD to scuttle Voldemort's plans without giving away the game, had he really known earlier.

(Sorry stonesorcerer, I didn't see you in here!)

I don't have time to look up the exact quotes, but two things made me overlook Dumbldeore's hand.

1. Hermione says, "There are some old curses that can't be mended."

2. Fudge says, " The thing is, the other side can do magic too."

Also, I want to draw attention to werewolves for a moment. If lycanthropy is the Wizarding cancer, couldn't Dumbledore's curse be a rare form of paralyzation? Something he could live with, yet uncurable?

Well, there was no time in book five. And keep in mind Dumbledore could have just told Harry all about the Horcruxes, but he chose to slowly explain things to him. He could have done it any time he wanted, but with the memories, it would take longer. He had to start as soon as possible - there had already been deaths in the Order - Voldemort needed to be stopped as soon as possible. In Book 5, the issue was helping the Ministry come to its senses. Now Harry needs to be informed. It had to be done soon.

You missed my point. I was trying to say that if Snape was still passing information or other things secretly, it was likely the Death Eaters would have noticed something. Some 'strange behavior' or something.

And anyways.....

Exactly.

I think it was just another genius red herrings on JK's part. The reason I think so is this: in the 4th movie (that's important), Cedric was blasted back similarily. Check in the graveyard scene if you have the movie. Cedric gets blasted back almost 5 feet. Maybe its just me, but.....I think JK left it there as a hint that it was just dramatic effect.


EDIT: There he goes again....once again bajab, you beat me there. By, what, 30 seconds?? Jeez....

I think that Bajab and stonesorcerer answered this fairly well; Magic has it's limitations. Sure, Madame Pomphrey can work wonder's on normal, mundane wounds that would seem catastrophic to us, but these are magical wounds. Mr. Weasley's cut couldn't be closed, even by physical means. Neville's parents are still insane. Lockhart's memory is still whacko. And those were just wounds made by animals and regular spells...this was cause by a Horcrux! Something so 'evile' that even the books worst books the Trio could find wouldnt' speak about it! And this particular Horcrux, as if being a normal Horcrux weren't bad enough, happened to contain the soul of the Darkest wizard in over a century, maybe ever! Surely something like this could cause some sort of injury.

Personally it seemed like some sort of burn to me, one that just kept going until the expert potion/Dark Arts master Snape managed to halt it. Though the book mentions Dumbledore as old and tired, I don't think it ever mentions his hand looking worse; it's just black and shrivled the whole book.

Actually, come to think of it, does Dumbledore ever actually tell us that his injury was caused by the ring? Or does he just say it's a thrilling tale and he needs more time to do it justice? We might not even be sure if the Horcrux caused the dadgum thing....

Sorry, are you saying that Snape as of now doesn't have an impact on the books, or the Horcruxes? Either way I disagree; if Snape is evil, then he killed Dumbledore, and that's quite an impact. If he's not...well, he killed Dumbledore! And again, that's quite an impact...

And the Horcruxes....as it is, JKR has a thousand things to resolve before the last page of Book 7, dumping the Horcruxes on us in the first couple chapters would have been too much to digest, me thinks. JKR said that HBP was like the first half of one book. (Second half being Book 7, obviously.) This is the set up, and now we know just about everything we need to know. The rest is just story telling and narration.

Dumbledore said over and over that Harry was more important than he. If was not so lazy I'd get some page numbers, but Dumbledore believes more than anyone in the prophecy, despite all of his insisting at the end of Phoenix that it was self-fulfilling. Dumbledore knows that, just like you said, it's Harry that has to go on, not him, nor Ron and Hermione, but Harry. And he told Harry at the end of Phoenix that he was going to be telling him everything he knew; HBP was time for the speculation.

The Pensieve is a wonderfully vague object we've got. I think JKR said that it's not the persons perceptions, rather it is a perfect recording of what actually happened; however, it wouldn't make much sense for that person to be able to percieve everything that happened anywhere in the world during that particular time. It has to be something that the person was subconciously aware of. Harry mentions trying to stay in sight of Snape, praying that the Marauder's didn't just wander off, out of earshot and the awareness of Snape.

I'd love to get some answers out of JKR about this. I hoping that the post-book 7 interview is a whole lot better than last years.

Not true-Peter Pettigrew is, in fact, a Gryffindor. Maybe this foreshadows something for him in the next book. Mostly Slytherins, yes. . .but not all.

As far as Dumbledore's hand, Snape makes mention of it as having happened "recently" (and this was before the term started) when he told Bellatrix and Narcissa that Dumbledore had recently sustained a major injury. So, his hand was probably at it's worse even then, and it wasn't a progressing injury (as Snape had fixed it). Ramble ramble ramble. As far as Dumbledore suffering declining health-I think it just shows up in Harry's continual observance of Dumbledore looking older and more tired throughout books five and six. Doesn't necessarily mean that he's getting weaker-just more tired and stressed, giving him his older appearance.

I think that (even though I am still for Snape's inherent goodness) Dumbledore's insistance that Harry get Snape was for Jo to really hit home how much Dumbledore trusted in Snape and his abilities. I think it was for shock factor more than anything. Plot devices are so much fun, right?

As far as there not being enough time in Book 5 to reveal some of this information . . . I think there was plenty of time. There was a lot of well-written, practically useless information in that book. It could have been removed to make room for some of this more dramatic stuff, if she'd wanted it. However, she's decided to give us more in depth look at character development, and I can't argue with that!

Snape, snape, snape. He's been given a certain pattern of redemption in these books that I do hope doesn't end. We suspected him throughout SS- and he was redeemed in the end. We have always been appalled at his treatment of Harry and the gang-to find out that he has a good, and indeed petty, reason for feeling so strongly against him. We've seen him do "good" deeds in OotP-in the fake VTM and alerting the Order, and I'd argue even trying to teach Harry Occlumency-the outcome, though important as far as timimg and such, does not negate the fact that these deeds were good. Perhaps they were skewed by a devious mind looking for personal gain, but he did do these things.

Even if the AV curse reaction was a plot-hole, I find it very interesting that she focused so intently on it! Jo puts a lot of time in describing her spells and their effects. It just seems significant that she would so alter the reaction to this one . . . I have to agree with QQS, about the intensity of reaction based on the elements of delivery. It's just an interesting focal point to make when it so strongly contradicts something previously described.

Whether Snape is on the good or evil side: He has good reason to despise being called a coward. For which ever side he is eventually betraying-he has put his life on the line in myriad ways. Harry's raging insult hit it's mark-and hit a nerve. It just happens to show that Snape is emotional (it reminded me of his childhood where Harry inadvertently got a peek during Occlumency lessons): He survived a horrible childhood. In most people's book, he would not be termed a coward, whether you like him or not.

I suppose that's all the brain cells I have to commit here tonight. I've been Disney-fied the last few days, so my mind is a mental fog. Hope I made some sense!

Ah yes, sorry, Janet...you're right, of course. But as you say, there's something different about Pettigrew. He's the only Gryffindor though, isn't he? And look at him - the weakest one. He's only with Voldemort out of fear, because he wanted to be as good and as popular as the rest of the Marauders. Voldemort offered him power and acceptance, probably the same thing that appealed to Snape. That's what makes Pettigrew and Snape the same and different to all the other DE's who are looking to control, to torture, to hurt...their motivations are different and I really do think that's going to be significant in book seven.

I completely agree. I did think that the cleaning was pretty unimportant, but now I'm thinking that it might have something to do with possible horcruxes hidden at Grimmauld Place, so I don't want to say that was a waste of time, but Grawp certainly was. Boring as anything, that whole section. I don't think there was any need for the prolonged ministry hearing or the Advance Guard, and I don't really see the point in the extended hospital scenes either. Not in light of HBP - I had thought that Neville's parents would be significant, but it doesn't look as though they are. So there was plenty of opportunity for part of this story, at least, to be explored.

As do I, highly significant. It speaks to the force of the emotion that went behind it. Good or bad though that emotion might have been, it was strong.

Again, very true. Snape is not a coward, whatever side he's on.

No, what I meant was that if the horcruxes were the most important thing, then it could have been discovered in the final book. It is clearly important that we question both Malfoy and Snape's roles in this series as a whole. Their actions are important, more important than I think any of us believed they would be when we started reading these books. JKR has gone out of her way in this book to paint the blackest possible picture of these two that she could have. This leaves no room whatsoever in book seven for the mystery element or the surprise twist element that have been a part of every book so far. Wouldn't it be the best twist if, after everything she's done in HBP to convince everyone of Snape's true loyalties, that he comes out to be the biggest help Harry could have wished for in book seven?

Had to scroll back because I wasn't sure what I meant by that either What I was thinking, I think (), is that if Snape had pushed Malfoy too hard, if he had interfered to the point where it was making it difficult for Draco to do what he was doing, then he was risking that Malfoy may have told Voldemort what a hinderence Snape was being, which could have caused Voldemort to question Snape and cave to the doubts being expressed about him by so many other DE's.

So why was Dumbledore so disappointed that Harry had made no effort to get it for him? He's trying to focus Harry on the important things, keep his eye on the goal.

So what? What would it have told Dumbledore? That Snape experimented with hexes while he was at school, wrote them down, and now Harry's gotten hold of them? What more would it have given away than that? It's most likely nothing that Dumbledore wasn't already aware of. All he could have said was the Malfoy tried to curse him and Harry used a spell he'd found, but was unaware of what it did. I don't think there would have been any risk of the Vow being exposed.

I'm actually not entirely sure where my train of thought was going there I think I was assuming that Snape was going to be of help to Harry, which, granted, is an assumption based on an assumption, so let's just skip that one....

Didn't prevent the bridge collapsing, didn't save Emmeline, didn't save Stan Shuntpike, didn't save..erm...was it Susan Bones' aunty?...didn't stop that little kid imperioing his parents...didn't stop the werewolves turning to Voldemort, didn't stop the giants or the Dementors joining him...

Nope, all in all, I'd have to say the Order are pretty useless in preventing anything.

Nope. Movies aren't canon, sorry. They're for dramatic effect and that's all. I don't think that's relevant.

I highly doubt that. If Snape is evil, as you think, wouldn't Dumbledore be equally as likely to notice odd things like Emmeline being killed?

That's really interesting...something definitely worth considering. But then we'd have to explore the whole Pensieve/memory thing, and that's probably something for another thread. Well worth exploring though...IS? Fancy a thread for the Pensieve?

I think I've covered everything, but I apologise if I've missed any points, but my brain is hurting now and I'm starving, so I'm off to get myself some breakfast...toast and Marmite, I think....mmm...yummy...

So did Pettigrew, but he still comes across as a coward doesn't he? Snape's actions towards those he has in his 'power' shows him to be a bully; bullys are cowards - it's the reason they bully in the first place.

Sirius may have been mistaken, but he gave the impression that many joined out of predujice or misinformation, but not necessarily to control, torture or hurt others. (Sirius believed that when Regulus found out just what Voldemort was doing he tried to quit.) I also got the impression that many joined out of fear, including Pettigrew (but I can't say which line exactly in the books gave me this, so it might just be my interpretation). So I can't see what those two being 'similar' is supposed to mean (since I think there are many different motivations for becoming a DE, and lots of people like Pettigrew).

As we saw with the potion hiding the locket, DD was confident enough in his own abilities and resources to risk his life, some would say foolishly, to obtain(destroy) a Horcrux. Perhaps this is just another sign of his arrogance? He is definately not all powerfull, as I have pointed out previously, he made many mistakes.

I didn't see this in the books. I saw him not afraid of death, but under valuate a life, even his own? Never. Maybe you meant to say he didn't think his death would be that important, but even then I have to disagree. Surely he would have known the negative effect word of his demise would have on everybody on the side of good.

Tell that to Cedric.
Actually, since DD suspected Tom Riddle right from the start, you could say he made a mistake in not following his suspicions up enough to find out the truth about the attacks thus put a stop to Voldemort almost before he began, or is that being a bit harsh on the greatest wizard who ever lived? I am sure Siruis would say DD believing him to be guilty was a mistake that counted too, and of course not believing that Malfoy would be able to get around his protections must really count.

What about hiding in the school in the back of Quirrell's head? I'd count that as fooling him. Replacing Moody - fooled him good with that one too.

I totally agree, but I suggest it was done to juxtapose the two, and their motivation. One was doing it from love (courage), and the other from hate (fear).

Since he wasn't even trying to kill him, I suggest that he knew he could not defeat him, but was supremely confident in his ability to protect himself. Just like drinking the potion or cutting himself, he was sure he could get through it. His worry started when Voldemort was no longer attacking him, so it was worry for others.

I have no doubt DD froze Harry to protect him, but not because he knew what was coming, because leaving Harry unfrozen on a tower filled with DE after getting himself killed would definately rank as the worst plan in history, and not even I think that lowly of Dumbldore!

I would even go as far as to say DD freezing Harry should be considered proof that he did not expect to die there, because that would have left Harry unprotected (and in a fairly unstable state of mind). If he really had known what was coming, he could have done dozens of things to get Harry out of harm's way, like sending him via broom to get Madam Pomfrey (as a distraction). Instead Harry was left on a roof with his second and third worst enemies (Snape and Draco) along with Death Eaters and a nut-job werewolf.

So once again I think DD made a mistake. He was trying to prevent Harry from taking any action that would have put him in the line of fire, but the arrogance that lead him to believe Draco could not get around his defences also lead him to think he would be able to continue to protect Harry.

No, not really. If you are convinced Snape is evil you might be surprised, but mosty likely disappointed or even angry. If you are convinced he is good, you will have been expecting it. I am sure there will be many surprises in book Seven, but judging by the JKR's changing style, I would say a surprise is unlikely to be the major factor of book seven (which good Snape would have to be).

I totally agree, but why then would have told Harry this was the case when he had promised to tell him the truth?

But, let's just assume the real reason is undisclosed, a theory I do not necessarily subscribvbe to. What other possible thing could Snape have shown or done to prove to DD that he had changed sides, and that could not be told to anybody else (not even the court that heard evidence from DD about Snape's innocence). Is there anything else mentioned anywhere that might be a clue?

Well maybe DD knows something that Snape doesn't, like another prophecy. Or he has seen into Snape's soul and knows Snape will one day do the right thing because of the trust DD shows in him. Or maybe it is something as twisted as the theory (that I just made up) that Snape's mum was (and still is) hidden from Voldemort by DD and to get that protection is the real reason Snape turned.

Food for thought or convoluted explaination of a weak plot point?

I say the latter.

Not so. . .Pettigrew turned himself into a Rat for 13 years. . .not so brave there. He didn't profess to be a spy for the Order . . .he was a coward: A coward of the consequences of Voldemort, and all of his actions point to that cowardice. Not so with Snape.

NEVER!! I'm not alligning myself with prosecution, Louise, never fear. I'm firmly in the Snape is ultimately good camp. Sorry if it seemed otherwise. I'm not abandoning you!

Exactly why I think he joined the Death Eaters. He wanted to be out of the shadows of his "friends" who had more to offer than he ever will. If there are other houses represented in the Death Eaters, we certainly haven't seen them. It would be interesting to have an entire list, though, wouldn't it?

Good point, here, Louise. I think Harry would definately have done something to Malfoy before Dumbledore could have had the chance to reason with him. . .and Harry definately wouldn't have stood a chance against those death eaters after he might have attacked Mafloy and Snape. . .

There's more, but I'm being beckoned . . .I'll pop back in later!

Janet

If anything, bajab, make sure you at least read the posts as they come - I just had catch up, and man, was that a mission! Glad I'm with all of you now (well, as close as I could manage).

Ok, first a few comments:

I love the pensieve, because it's so vague. Thoughts and prophecies fall, imo, into the same category - muddled. One thing Dumbledore said made me think. He said to Harry that the memory they were visiting was his and that it would therefore be rich in detail. So I guess you can sort of see the things the person was aware of - Snape was definitely aware of the Marauders. Anyway, I'd like this thread if it came along.

The thing is, this viewpoint goes exactly against why people still believe Snape is good. Our whole argument is based on him not being in it for anything but being good. Period. Without this incentive, I can see very little reason for him to want to even pretend to be good. If anything, Snape is proud - faking his goodness will, for one, mean he has to swallow the resentment and hatred he has for James and Sirius - the one issue he just can't get past. If he could swallow this out of choice, why couldn't he teach Harry Occlumency when he had to? Failing to do this, without Mr Weasley's incident, could have horribly exposed him, worse than the Quidditch incident in Harry's first year.

All this in the hope that the good side will win, when his first instinct is really the Dark Arts. I don't get it - he can't be out for himself. If he is, he's really chosen the hardest possible route. Malfoy managed fine until now pretending he was Imperio'ed. There's no way of finding out if someone wasn't. Being such an accomplished Occlumens, it would have been much easier to just choose sides and use his slipperiness to wiggle out later.

Hehe, you're right. But maybe Dumbledore's death might spur them on a bit. Well let's hope so anyway, cause if that doesn't...

I agree. At least that's how it is in comparison with the other Death Eaters we've actually met (the World Cup ones as well). The Slytherin/Gryffindor thing is quite cool. I think Jo is definitely leaning toward the ideal that people should not be divided by who they were born to be. The Sorting Hat, while being quite powerful, isn't all-knowing - it's still a hat. It can only look into who you are at a certain moment, and what your makings are. It cannot pass a judgement on how will you choose in your life - which is the only reason Harry went to Gryffindor. He chose to. (Sorting Hat, prophecy, time-travelling, visiting thoughts - all things depicting unchangables that can, in fact, be changed, or their effects ignored, rendering them useless). Love it! It's all about choice.

So, being sorted into a certain House shouldn't be anything more than a necessity. Your choices are what's really important. If Pettigrew was sorted into Gryffindor, but chose to become more of a Slytherin along the way, why can't Snape be sorted into Slytherin, and later choose to become a true Gryffindor. Weird thought? Shocks the message home, doesn't it? If not->

So true, imo. I keep harping on about the message - sorry, it's what makes me think the way I do, and frankly, the literary triumph that is Harry Potter will rocket to the murky depths of my esteem if all this seemingly plausible emotional twaddle is just that.

Dumbledore's abilities and mistakes is key here. It's very interesting - how much do you really trust Dumbledore? I think there are as many answers as there are readers + characters + Jo, at this moment. Some people choose to mistrust his judgement on loyalty, while some only think that it's his body and physical health that was ultimately flawed. In between lies all the mistakes he made - why did he make them, what led him to make them - and when was he really fooled. A mess, imo.

Personally, I think his belief in someone's essential loyalty, to whichever side, is flawless. He isn't all-knowing, but he trusts some people, and others he doesn't. He's not a trusting fool - he was, in fact, the only teacher who never really liked Tom Riddle, while the rest of the school were starstruck. Riddle was obviously likable enough - but Dumbledore knew better. Snape was never popular and no-one really liked him - but Dumbledore knew better.

Dumbledore had to die - otherwise Harry would never go through the maturing process that will shape him enough to be able to beat Voldemort. It is a literary necessity, and maybe something Dumbledore foresaw. That might be why he decided that, of him and Snape, it would make more sense for him to go. Snape would be of more use inside Voldemort's system, and Dumbledore wouldn't be able to help Harry with killing Voldemort. He was getting too old, but most importantly, with him around, Harry would never step out of his comfort zone on his own. Dumbledore wasn't the chosen one, so then neither he nor Harry would be able to do it. Dumbledore was very troubled by the mistakes he had made while trying to protect Harry. Giving his life, and so saving Snape's (who could be of some help), is exactly what he would have done to correct that.

Actually, his whole quest was to keep everyone safe. He couldn't do it anymore, and gave his life in such a way that it did more good than him actually staying alive.

The thing is, the more unlikely Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore is, the stronger the message of forgiveness instead of prejudice, so in effect, it doesn't sink the defense. All evidence sited here for both sides could still exist in all it's colour. If, however, he is evil, all the evidence of love, trust and forgiveness would be wiped out, leaving a lot shallower series...

Look at Dumbledore during the actual battling. He's perfectly calm, because he knows that Voldemort is the threat, Harry is safe, and he can deal with anything Voldemort does. No, I don't think that the Ministry Battle did anything to Dumbledore except open his eyes that he better start letting his little Hero in on the plan. Snape was just flattering the Dark Lord, methinks.

I also agree with bajab; Dumbledore was worried at that moment for Harry, because though Dumbledore doesn't fear his own death and knows that he can deal with anything Voldemort throws at him, Harry cannot. And if Dumbledore is not aware of what Voldemort is up to....

Snape is a potions genius. While still in school he improved the standard textbook that is still usable today. He also knows everything there is to know about the Dark Arts, and we all agree he is exceptionally powerful. For the ring horcrux, there may have been a potion involved, may not, but it's a dark art, so Snape. For this time, Dumbledore was suffering from a potion (not to mention the water, or Draught of Living Death, that had a whole bunch of corpses floating around) that was presumably Dark. Snape is a logical choice.

Again, I disagree. As bajab pointed out, I also got the impretion that lots of people joined Voldemort because he was winning and unstoppable. Nobody was counting on Harry, and everybody was flocking to the Death Eaters. Snape wasn't any different, I don't think. He wanted to be able to practice his Dark Arts, and be able to get back at people like James and Sirius. He's petty, and that extends to more than his treatment of students. What James and Sirius did to him was inexcusable, but joining the Death Eaters because of it isn't any more justifiable.

Dumbledore already had guessed about the Horcruxes; he'd already found and destroyed at least one of them. This is fact. But he didn't have the ability to easily show Harry. I'm sure the train of thoughts that lead Dumbledore to his conclusion of the Horcruxes was much more complicated than what he showed Harry. And maybe Dumbledore wasn't quite sure on exactly how many Voldemort had made. Perhaps he wanted to know if the Horcrux hunting was over with, or were there six more to go? And it's part of Harry's maturing process. Dumbledore wanted Harry to learn that there are more important things than Malfoy, which, if Harry hadn't been right, would've been a huge thing for Harry to learn.

Which I've been meaning to bring up. (If this has already been talked about, forgive me, I've skimmed everything, but likely I missed a few points...) How do you explain Emmeline? Snape claims he passed that information on to the Death Eaters, and surely Bellatrix would've known if it was true or not, since she didn't argue that point. And though it's plausible that Dumbledore would trade his own life, there is no way that I believe he tossed out her's.

And of course Voldemort is going to be causing havok, but that doesn't mean the Order isn't doing anything. They're hopelessly out numbered, and in HBP, we have literally no idea about what they're up to, where they're meeting, etc. But I'll be willing to bet that things would be a lot worse without them.

If you want answer's for all of those questions, particularly Stan Shunpike, you need to look at the Ministry. And on them, I'll agree one hundred percent.

Aight, I've got to get some sleep, church tomorrow morning. (Happy Easter!) I'll defend my position on Snape's selfishness () tomorrow night sometime.

He's a coward because he doesn't have the courage of his convictions. He's prepared to cut off his own hand because he knew that Voldemort would heal him and he was more afraid of dying than he was of being in some temporary pain. He hasn't risked his life at all as of yet. Fear kept him hidden for twelve years, fear kept him from seeking Voldemort, fear made him return to Voldemort - fear is Wormtail's only motivation. He's rather pathetic really - he just wanted to fit in, he thought the DE's could give him the power he sought, but I don't think he had any idea of what he was truly letting himself in for. But his fear kept him with Voldemort - Regulus left, Karkaroff left, look what happened to them. Pettigrew is afraid of ending up like them.

I don't think Snape is afraid of Voldemort. I don't think Snape is afraid of anyone, come to that. He's with Voldemort for the power, for the fame, for the recognition...or was when he joined, anyway. Mason said it all - he's a petty man. He would have joined the DE's to fulfil a petty grudge and he certainly enjoys emotional torments, but there is no indication in the canon whatsoever that Snape would intentionally hurt someone physically. Quite the contrary in fact - he prevented Harry from falling from the broom, he healed Malfoy very effectively, he helped Dumbledore limit the damage done by the cursed ring. He has also never humiliated anyone in the way that the DE's did at the QWC, or the way that James humiliated him in the Worst Memory scene. He's made digs, he's been amused at other people's...misfortune (like Hermione's rabbit-teeth), but I don't think there's any incident where he has ever belittled, debased, de-humanised or been deliberately cruel to anyone, has there?

Mmm...no, I don't think so. I think Dumbledore was more prepared than he let on. He knew his life was in danger by seeking horcruxes, certainly, but I don't think he was arrogant or over confident - he expressed concern to Harry by making sure that he understood that if he asked Harry to run, go back, whatever, Harry must do as he was told. He was preparing for the eventuality that he might not be able to control whatever they might face - that doesn't indicate arrogance. If anything, that indicates humility. 'I am not afraid, I am with you,' he said, or words to that effect. He's putting his faith in a sixteen year old boy - a great wizard like him. No, Dumbledore could never be called arrogant.

I should have said Tom never fooled him - a subtle, but important, difference. Snape is as real to him now as Tom was then. Dumbledore is not taken in by promises of better behaviour, by obsequious attempts to wheadle and manipulate his way into peoples good books or by shows of popularity and apparent good works. He saw through Tom's act. If Dumbledore can see through Voldemort, is it so hard to believe that he could see through Snape if he was lying to him?

Well, it goes back to my latest pet-theory that Snape loved Lily. If Dumbledore was aware of that depth of feeling, then he would naturally want to keep it from Harry. It would serve no purpose, upsetting him even more for no reason. What difference could it make to him now? If Voldemort ever saw into Harry's thoughts and discovered that Snape had feelings for someone he had killed, he would, of course, have good reason to doubt Snape's loyalty to him. It seems as though Snape's act is a vital one - we don't know his full role yet, I think. He's a bigger player than any of us gave him credit for.

*phew* *breathes calmly again* You did worry me there for a while, Janet!!

Beautiful, Capricorn Absolutely brilliant point, echoing Dumbledore's and the Sorting Hat's comments. It certainly is the choices that are important, clearly.

Meh, that's okay, Mason...I'm used to it by now...

Yes, perhaps...but so is Slughorn. It seems as though Snape has been a confidant since the beginning. He went to Snape when he injured himself getting the ring - Snape helped him. Snape would have had to have had an understanding of the curse that did the damage in order to perform the counter-curse. Dumbledore must have, at least partially, confided in Snape as to the reason why he got himself cursed. Yet Snape made absolutely no mention whatsoever of Dumbledore's injury or his unexplained absences when he spoke to Bella and Narcissa. He said about the battle in the ministry having weakened Dumbledore and made vague references to an "injury" sustained because his reactions "aren't as quick as once they were", but he didn't elaborate. He didn't say Dumbledore was cursed, or that he was keeping an eye on him because he was up to something - nothing like that. Why not? If he was on Voldemort's side, why not add to his story by telling Bella and Narcissa the precise reason why it is so imperative for him to maintain his cover at Hogwarts?

He didn't - he told them just enough, and yet no where near enough.

Mmm...yeah, I think the reason he was so anxious to get that memory, judging by what I read (or heard) today was not because of the horcruxes themselves, because he already knew about them. I think he really needed to know how many there were, so he could know how close he was, probably. Still, I think he was angry with Harry because these things were important, and instead of concentrating on the task at hand, Harry was insistent on distrusting Snape - something that Dumbledore already had in hand.

I can't really. I did touch on this once in the other thread on the main forums, but it's just a theory with no real evidence. We don't really know the full circumstances - it may have been that Emmeline was in danger anyway and Snape just manipulated it to make it seem as though he was the one who gave the information. All we have is Snape's word for it that she's dead because of him. If she is, then why didn't the Order get suspicious? Why didn't they investigate? We don't really know enough about that to be able to judge fairly.

One more thing I missed earlier...

Normally, I would agree wholeheartedly. It would be a wonderful literary device. However, I don't think JKR is that complicated in her writing. I used to think she was, but after HBP and the ships fiasco...no. What you see is what you get with her, and if there are any deeper meanings, they're shallow enough to be found with minimal digging. I think we're meant to notice this, but I don't think we're meant to overthink it, if you know what I mean. Just look at the acts themselves, look at the way they contrast, but they're described in the same way. The areas of motivation are slightly more complex and I'm not sure that she hides her messages so deeply.

Crikey, I've written an essay again Ah, so much Snape to talk about, so little time...

But is Slughorn such an expert in the Dark Arts, too? That's debatable, I'm not going to ride that one to the death, but there's another explanation also.

Snape is in the inner-circle of the Order.

And that's how he wants it: he is the one really calling the shots. Emmeline Vance is an example of this. At the time Dumbedore was injured by the ring, Slughorn hadn't yet been brought to Hogwarts. You saw how difficult it was to convince Slughorn to teach at Dumbledore's school, how do you think he'd have reacted if Dumbledore had shown up at his doorstep rambling about the very thing he was hiding to protect (the fact that he knew about the Horcruxes) with who knows how many Death Eater's on his doorstep?

Again, you saw how Slughorn reacted with Ron's sickenss: He panicked! I, at least, think that with something as serious as a Horcrux injury, Slughorn would have been more worried about his own safety than trying to save Dumbledore. And if Dumbledore (mistakenly) trusts Snape, then why not use his expertise and talent? Say what you want about Snape, but's he calm and cool under pressure, skilled in both the Dark Arts and Potions (the two things that Dumbledore needed most), is vital to both camps, and had helped Dumbledore previously. Snape is the logical choice.

Of course he did. In the grand scheme of things, Narcissa and Bellatrix are inconsequintial. (sp?) He only explained all those things he did at Spinner's End because he knew that if he didn't, Bellatrix was going to continue to spout out things that, if heard by the wrong people in the Death Eaters, would have endangered his comfortable place. The last thing Snape wants is someone who has enough facts and intelligent to realize that when Snape brings two and two to Voldemort they don't equal four.

And if you agree with me, that Snape is playing the fence, it makes perfect sense. He doesn't want to show his whole hand, but he has to quiet Bellatrix's loud complaints about him. It's logical, and Snape is all about logic.

How could the Order know that Snape was the one passing information about Emmeline Vance? All's they know is that she died and it took a whole bunch of them to finish her off. The way Snape makes the claim is such that it was common knowledge among the Death Eaters. Not even Bellatrix - who had questioned why Snape hadn't killed Harry right under Dumbledore's nose - argued with this claim.

For Snape to be taking the credit for someone else's information would require for either Voldemort to believe that someone else was lying, which doesn't strike me, and hopefully not him, as plausible. (There's not much to gain from being the informant that killed Emmeline. She wasn't exactly a main player in the game, at least not by Voldemort's view.)

OR someone gave Snape the information to pass on. Not likely, as they would have kept quiet as Snape passed it on (not a very Death Eater trait) or were working for Snape and not Voldemort directly. If that's the case, you still have Snape voluntarily passing information that directly lead to the death of an Order member.

OR Snape kept someone quiet by force or intimidation. For this to be the case, and to keep Snape from being the only reason Emmeline died, this person had to be inside Voldemort's camp. What Death Eater is going to fear Snape more than Voldemort? And if he killed/tortured this Death Eater, why wouldn't someone in Voldemort's (much more suspicious than the Order's) camp have noticed and investigated?

In the end, we don't have only Snape's word. We have the agreement by silence of both Narcissa and Bellatrix. And, at least not that I can see, no way around the fact that Snape killed Emmeline Vance.

I'm not saying that Slughorn was Snape's equal...I'm just saying that as far as potions/Dark Arts experience goes, there were other choices he might have made if he'd had any doubts about Snape whatsoever. Lupin, for example - he's good at DADA too. His trust in Snape must be absolutely unshakeable for him to take such a risk, going to him now Voldemort is back...Snape could have killed him at any time if he'd wanted to, if Voldemort had really wanted Dumbledore dead.

Let's think about that for a moment - Voldemort has ordered Dumbledore dead. He's asked Malfoy to do it and not told anyone else about it, not even Snape. Obviously, as Dumbledore says, Voldemort is very angry that Lucius not only failed him in the DoM, but also got one of his horcruxes destroyed (though Lucius wouldn't have known the real reason for Voldemort's anger). As punishment, he sent Draco to do what he probably considered an impossible task. A task with multiple benefits for Voldemort - if Draco failed, he would have punished Lucius and Narcissa and Snape could have remained at Hogwarts. If he succeeded, Dumbledore would be out of the way at last and Snape could still remain at Hogwarts. It's a win-win situation for him.

But then that raises the question of how much Voldemort actually wanted Dumbledore dead. If he was absolutely adament about it, why send Draco to do it? Why not stipulate to Snape - "hey, I've asked Draco to murder Dumbledore for me, mate...keep an eye on him, will you? Finish him off if Draco can't." It is suggested that's exactly what happened - by Snape...'He intends me to do it in the end.' Okay...so Snape either knew Draco's task or he was faking. Either way, his goal was to protect Draco for whatever reason he may have had. I just don't understand why Voldemort wouldn't have allowed Snape to help out if he'd really wanted Dumbledore dead.

It just doesn't seem right that Voldemort would test Draco like that, and allow him to fail, having Snape as a back up. Why didn't Voldemort instruct Snape to kill Draco if he failed? Or does Voldemort want to kill Draco himself? Does Snape know this, is that why he was so reluctant to take the Vow - because it posed an horrific danger to himself if Draco were to die? Or is it just as simple as Snape was bluffing, he really didn't know what task Voldemort had set Draco - far more likely, because he was following Draco around like a limpet, constantly probing at him to find out what he was doing.

It would have been in Snape's best interests to kill Dumbledore himself much earlier on. Dumbledore's death didn't have to coincide with the vanishing cabinet being repaired - if it did, he wouldn't have played around with the necklace or the poisoned mead. Two events that provided an excellent opportunity for Snape to murder Dumbledore far more quietly - and suspicion would have naturally fallen on Draco when it emerged that he'd bought the mead and the necklace. Much easier all around, and it would have kept him safe and above suspicion. But he didn't choose that path. If Dumbledore's death was so imperative, then punishing Draco and Lucius would have been inconsequential, so long as the end result was there.

Plus, we have the very fact that Dumbledore knew of the reason why Voldemort was angry with Lucius. Who could possibly have told him that, other than Snape? I'm pretty sure Lucius wouldn't have been spilling his guts in prison about it, so how did Dumbledore know of Voldemort's anger? There was only one person who could have told him - Snape. Who would have known, being Lucius' closest friend. Snape must have told Dumbledore that Voldemort's anger was much worse than usual...even if he didn't know about the horcruxes and Dumbledore just put two and two together there, it still remains that there was something extraordinary about Voldemort's anger - Snape must have told Dumbledore all this. That's information - even a veiled warning - that not only he didn't need to give, but also could have actually been severely detrimental to Voldemort; not to mention it endangered Draco, someone he had made a vow to protect.

It just doesn't make any sense - there's something weird about the whole thing.

Well, it would depend on the circumstances of her death - which remain suspiciously absent. Was she killed at home? In which case Voldemort wouldn't have needed Snape's help in finding her. Surely he would have known where she was. Or was she working, somewhere else? In which case, if the Order members were the only ones who knew where she was, suspicion would naturally have fallen on one of them. No one suspected Snape of anything. Or maybe it was an accident. The DE's were looking for someone else, found Emmeline, killed her, and then Snape could have claimed (in order to secure his place in the DE's and because there was nothing he could have done anyway) that he led them there. We can't say because we just don't know from what little Snape said. What I do know is that it is not clear he killed her himself. He just said that it was his "information that led to her death". That's not killing her himself.

Not necessarily. They just didn't have anything to contradict him. Emmeline is dead, they both know she's dead - the fact of death is not in dispute. What is in dispute is that Snape caused her death, indirectly, by passing information to Voldemort. They don't know anything about that possibly - all they know is that Snape is in the Order, that Emmeline was too and now she's dead. That's all they know - so there's nothing to contradict.

Well, that's a matter of opinion. I think that Snape knew exactly what he was promising to do when he made the vow. And that's why he was so hesitant, not because he wasn't sure, but because he knew precisely what he was getting himself into. Of course, this is just a matter of opinion, but for the rest of the book, things seem to be getting worse for the Order. More people are dying, more mayhem and chaos is happening. Perhaps this is a sign that Snape was shifting the transfer of information away from the Order and more towards the Death Eaters, since he knew that at some point he was going to have to show his hand. But at the same time he didn't want to tip it too far, because he was still trying to figure out a way to have Draco's mission fail without him violating the vow. The status quo would have been kept and Snape would still be in the position of power that he's in.

Dumbledore could have figured it out. Dumbledore had already guessed that the diary was a Horcrux, and it follows that Voldemort would've been angry with Lucius once he found out it was tossed aside in an attempt to get back at the Weasleys. When taken with the fact that Voldemort had given Draco a task that Dumbledore also thought impossible, it's not to far a stretch of the imagination to deduce that it's a punishment for the Malfoy's.

And even if Snape gave the information to Dumbledore, what does that prove? He has to throw Dumbledore a bone or two, and even a few gem's of information to keep Dumbledore from suspecting him. I'm not saying that Snape was exclusively giving information to Voldemort and none to Dumbledore; he would have wanted to keep both sides in a stalemate by giving each information about the next play by the other side. But only enough to stop the play from maximum effect. Snape's game is all about the status quo.

Just because he wasn't the one to say Avada Kedavra doesn't mean he's not responsible. Nixon wasn't the one to place the recorder's in the Watergate Hotel, but he's still just as guilty as the person doing the dirty work. Giving the Death Eaters information about Emmeline that directly lead to her death is the same thing as pulling the trigger.

That's pure speculation. Of course, so is mine, but just the off hand way makes the claim...Bellatrix was questioning everything - even things that were completely logical. Particularly things that she didn't have information on. If she had evidence against Snapes claim, she'd have presented it. And if she didn't have reason to believe his claim, she'd have demanded an explanation.

Lucius isn't exactly a low ranking Death Eater, and Narcissa seems to be fairly well read on what's going on. I'd bet she's quite involved. Bellatrix is Voldemort's self-proclaimed most faithful servant, and though Snape makes it clear that she's not being let in on the most secret secrets, I still think that she knows quite a bit, even if not directly from Voldemort.

It makes more sense that they would have known about this seemingly trivial things than they knew nothing and didn't question it.

I'm not saying that at the end of Book 7, Snape is going to be evil and dead. I think he may have a chance at redemption. But I believe that at the end of HBP, he is firmly in Voldemort's camp.

My "explanation" is that he uttered this in the same breath that he told them he was responsible for Sirius Black's death. Sure, maybe quite indirectly-but it was Bella (sitting right there) and Sirius who made the decisions and carried out the actions that led to his demise. Snape merely informed the Order of a situation about which they needed to know. Perhaps this was a similar circumstance-perhaps he had informed the Order of Death Eater activity, or vice versa and Emmaline happened to be there. I'm not excusing her murder, but I think we should take into account that Bella didn't contradict him on taking credit for Sirius' death as well.

And-

Is he really? Isn't it just that he has a Special Ops kind of position for them? Is he there with Dumbledore at Grimmauld place making the decisions, getting his voice heard at every meeting? Sure, he's probably high up there-whatever their rankings are: But I'm not sure there's much of an inner circle in the Order besides Dumbledore and now Harry (who isn't even in the Order). Dumbledore has never seemed to share, much like Voldemort come to think of it, his full knowledge of situations or reveal his tactics until they are need-to-know.

Just wanted to throw that out there. Now I have to go recover from vacation and catch up on the real content of those posts. Perhaps I've just picked up on some inconsequential things. . .so like me!

Janet

Because you said that Snape was the only choice, being a Potions Master as well as being a Dark Arts expert. What I'm saying is that he could have gone to Lupin who could have helped him with the counter-curse (being a Dark Arts expert too) or he could have called for Slughorn, if he required help with the potion later.

In either case, whether the potion had poisoned him or whether he'd been cursed, there were other people he could have called for. Of course, Dumbledore's trust isn't in dispute - and that's precisely the point! In spite of everything, he trusts him...with his life, as well as Harry's. That's an unshakable faith and it must be born of something unshakable too.

Actually, we do. Lupin was terrible at Potions, which is why Snape had to make the Wolfsbane potion for him. But he was good at DADA - and counter curses.

So do I, which is why he hesitated. Why did he hesitate? Because he doesn't want to kill Dumbledore. He's certainly not afraid of doing so - he's not afraid of anyone. He's also afraid though, being Slytherin, of dying himself if he didn't fulfil the vow. He doesn't want to kill Dumbledore, but he doesn't want to die himself either. If he had died because he broke the vow, then Malfoy would also have died. Voldemort would have killed him. So, by Snape's actions, he saved both himself and Malfoy. Yes, he took Dumbledore's life - but if Dumbledore was prepared for it, demanded it, then pleaded for it, that's more than sufficient explanation for the 'hatred' and 'revulsion', isn't it?

Again, I agree. If he did give the information, then he is just as guilty as the person who committed the act. But you (or was it bajab?) stated previously that Snape killed Emmeline - what I'm saying, perhaps a little pedantically, if that he didn't...and all we have is his word for the information he gave...which isn't enough to draw absolute conclusions, considering that he was trying to prove his "toughness" at the time. Janet is absolutely right - he did it in the same breath at he bragged about Sirius. Not that he's responsible for that...or, actually...maybe he is....mmm....nah, I don't want to think about that... He sent the Order to the Ministry - they wouldn't have known what was going on if he hadn't told them. As Janet said, they didn't contradict him about that and any hand he may have indirectly had in Sirius' death was precisely that - indirect.

Oh, I doubt that. Dumbledore repeatedly said that Voldemort trusts no one absolutely by his very nature. He has "devoted" followers, yes, but none of them know everything. They just think they do, and that's the big difference.

Sorry if I mangled your post a bit here, but I just wanted to pick out a few lines without having this huge long thing...

Lupin is good at DADA, but not potions. Slughorn is good at potions, but not DADA or under pressure, which sort of cancels out his potions skill. Lupin is off in the woods with the werewolves, inaccessable. Slughorn was God knows where at the time, perhaps inaccessable, but at the same time not a very solid choice.

All's I'm saying is that Snape was the only logical choice.

Not necessarily. It must be born of something that Dumbledore thinks is unshakable. Another thing altogether.

I completely agree. Self-preservation, I think, it's Snapes main motive throughout the series. And if self-preservation dictated that whatever unshakable reason Dumbledore trusted Snape be forsaken, well, I don't think he'd hesitate to do so. Whatever this reason was, (love for Lily, some other debt, I highly doubt it was personal remorse, but it's inconsequintial at this time) would have taken a back seat over his own life. Snape would save himself rather than die for an idea.

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Snape only saved himself. Dumbledore seemed quite confidant in his ability to hide and save the Malfoys. He reasons the same as you for the whole year, but he's found a way to keep them safe.

Now I agree that perhaps Dumbledore may have suggested that he take Snape's place, allowing Snape to fulfill the vow. But if Snape is really good, wouldn't he have realized that he is no where near as valuable as Dumbledore? And if that had been the plan, then why didn't McGonagall know? Why didn't anybody else know?

Yes, I think it was me. But I was just cutting out the middle man. Snape is just as guilty as whoever pulled the trigger. And yes, I do think that he's responsible for Sirius, not the way Harry blamed him, but that whole delay thing was certainly suspicious.

But think about him sending the Order. What happens if he doesn't? Voldemort get's the prophecy. And Harry dies. That's quite a swing in power, and at the end of Phoenix, Snape wasn't ready to openly declare himself on one side. Especially if he hadn't heard the prophecy. He certainly knew about it, everyone in the order knew that there was A prophecy, but I doubt they knew the contents. He wouldn't know that without Harry everything is lost. So he wouldn't know that it would have been as big a hit to the Order as it would have. He just knew that Dumbledore was putting all his resources into guarding the prophecy hall, and that Voldemort had lured Harry to there. It makes sense if he's playing the fence.

Janet- You're right about Dumbledore keepng things like the prophecy to himself, but Emmeline Vance isn't the prophecy. She's not even a major player in the war. Her whereabouts were most likely easily obtained by anyone in the Order. And her death wasn't something that would have been needed to be secret in the Death Eaters.

We're not talking about top secret information. We're talking about common knowledge here. And still, the way Snape says it...it's too offhand for it to be a good lie, and the possible gain for telling it to Bellatrix isn't enough to risk it in a game where being caught in one lie to your 'own people' is enough to warrent your death.

See, but Snape had nothing to do with Sirius' decision to go to the ministry. Sirius did. Dumbledore did. Snape merely conveyed the message. The blame for Sirius' death can only be placed at Bellatrix' and Sirius' feet. Perhaps the timing is fishy, but don't you think others in the Order would have been supicious of that too, if it were really an issue of Snape's betraying them?

As far as Emmaline . . . I'm not saying that whatever the information Snape gave to Voldemort was about Emmaline herself. I'm saying that perhaps it had to do with a mission the Order was doing . . .and Emmaline happened to be the one that got killed. Perhaps it could have been anyone. It just seems to me that he's taking credit for deaths that he really didn't have anything to do with. Perhaps Emmaline would have died in battle whether or not Snape had offered his information-much like Sirius. Does that make it any clearer, or am I still just talking circles?

I was getting dangerously close to suggesting that Snape didn't know about the prophecy, and if I didn't, I was thinking it. But that's wrong; Snape knows just as much about the Prophecy as Voldemort, since Snape was the one who told Voldemort about it. Consider that my correction. And no quips.

See, the problem I have with this is: if Snape really wanted 'self preservation' he couldn't have chosen a more gruelling (and highly dangerous) way to attempt it - playing both sides. I mean, it's absolutely insane for anyone to think that they could play Dumbledore and Voldemort, the two greatest wizards of the age - at the same time, against each other!

I'm not saying that Snape isn't arrogant, but like you said Mason, he's very logical and calculated, and trying to juggle these two wizards is just as irrational as you can get. No-one can be that arrogant and not be as mad as a hatter! His best bet would have been to just choose sides and maintain a low profile, which I think he did, until this Potter thing came along - I still like my theory about the wizard's bond, but whatever. Either way, he had to choose...

So Snape has to be either good or bad - or completely mad and inconsistent, which I don't think he is. He's a potions master, after all.

Ok, so having said that - the only information Snape gave the D-E's, that we know has actually helped Voldemort thwart the Order, is this about Emmeline Vance - and like it's been said - not the most crucial piece of information ever. He could of course have given Voldemort 'sixteen years worth of information' on Dumbledore - but in tactics and beliefs Dumbledore isn't such a great mystery. He's very outspoken on what he believes in and what he thinks the right way is. And the information of what Dumbledore did for 16 years in a time of peace can only help Voldemort so far. Especially since Voldemort knew Dumbledore well himself - so all in all, the question remains: to what extent has Snape really contributed to the D-E's?

On the other hand, he has passed crucial information on Voldemort's plans to the Order that helped them preserve the prophecy. This was a very important thing for Voldemort to hear - if Snape could have chosen the best time to pass crucial information to Voldemort - it would have been then. If he were waiting for the opportune moment... (sorry, just love that quote ).

So if he didn't use that opportunity, and he's not mad enough to try sitting on a very prickly fence (or perhaps newly painted one ), I have to say that he looks quite loyal to me...

Then you go and add the sheer weight of Dumbledore's trust - something that has, throughout the books, stood as his greatest gift and a blessing to all who have it, I definitely think that there is much hope for Snape's loyalty.

And there are a thousand reasons why Harry would tell them the fine details of what went on. And Dumbledore would know the goings on in his school, even if he isn't present. I say they knew. . .

This can be argued for either side, really, but I'll just say that he has to give them something to keep them happy with his status. He has to offer some sort of insider knowledge for his position as spy to be useful and necessary. If he doesn't, then he's superfluous. . .and Voldemort isn't a forgiving lord, nor does he suffer uselessness. Perhaps this point would fit more into the "Snape for himself" arguments. . .that way he can be free in his consious that he has offered either side nothing more than the other. . .

Oh, fine. . .take all the fun out of it.

But let's think of some of what we know of Snape's motivation: To be respected (I'm thinking of his worst memory. . .his jealousy of James and his friends for being popular). How respected will he be . . .whichever side wins . . .to be able to show them that he was, indeed, powerful enough to trick at least one, if not both, of them.

I'd say that he will probably end up either good or bad, but he doesn't necessarily have to be either. . .to the extreme. JKR has been teaching us a lot about defeating certain prejudices. . .working in areas of grey. I think that Snape could just as easily put himself firmly into a grey area-and be quite comfortable there.

Heh. I think it was a crucial defeat for Voldemort at the time. . .but it really wasn't all that important to hear. That's just my opinion. I actually think that Voldemort probably figured out the rest of that prophecy that night he couldn't kill the baby Harry Potter, but he wanted to hear it to confirm his suspicions . . .or even to find out if there was anything else, which there wasn't really.

Snape is as much a master of phrasing as he is at potions. . .that part of him greatly intrigues me.

What Voldemort didn't hear the first time was:

1. He will mark this boy as his equal
2. The boy will have 'powers the Dark Lord knows not'
3. Neither can live while the other survives

He still hasn't heard it, and Voldemort already thinks he has taken Harry's defences away by neutralising Lily's protection. I believe he is still mistaken - Harry hasn't even started to explore the power he has in love. This information, or the lack of certainty about it, is still crucial, imo. Why would the Order risk so much by gaurding the Hall of Prophecies themselves if this wasn't important? Why would Voldemort be so extremely angry at Lucius if he had already figured out what it was all about?

Knowledge is power here, and Voldemort might hesitate at a crucial moment because of it, and this perhaps could be his downfall. Snape could have defeated Harry - and with him James, Sirius, Dumbledore and everyone else, if he had decided to pass some information to Voldemort about something he obviously wanted to hear very badly. His role in the defeat would have been glorious and exactly the revenge he supposedly wants.

Hmm, he's still risking a lot for that. You can't deny that it is irrational to value such forced 'respect' above everything else. Which is fine, but hasn't Snape shown that he has extreme control over his actios and thoughts? He's lying to Dumbledore or Voldemort - and hating one of them, if you judge by how he fired that curse.

For him to clear his mind of such strong feelings so that one of them is fooled, takes exreme focus and control. Why would he then behave so irrationally in a search for power or respect that has, by the looks of things now - led nowhere? For thwarting Harry and the whole crowd that goes with him, he can't have done 'better' than kill Dumbledore in cold blood. So his big story is basically over. I'm asking - that was it?! All this mystery created around him throughout the whole series - and that's the climax of it all? And if he can do worse...? I shudder at the thought of how dark this series will be then.

Ok, about redemption. I have to ask: how can cold blooded murder, coupled with the worst of betrayals ever be redeemed? Treachery and murder is as bad as you can go. I can't think of an act that could redeem him completely - some things are just wrong. It's why we lock murderers up - they're not fit for society - or redemption.

And if the redemption does happen, I'd still feel like it was forced (like some other things in HBP), so it would be a feeble end to a great character, and a shame.

In terms of thwarting Voldemort and the D-E's - why would he start that in the first place? I can understand his hatred of the marauders, but Lucius is friendly with him - Narcissa pleads for him to help her, and Voldemort values him enough to make him a spy... I see no real reason for wanting revenge so badly. True, not everyone likes him, but that's just life - he'd have to be slightly round the bend if he wanted revenge for that at all costs.

The reasons for him being a lone agent are all based on his extreme issues making him irrationally vengeful, but at the same time->

It doesn't fit, in my mind. So he's cool and collected, calculated and precise, yet his whole scheme is based on the completely irrational notion that he is even more powerful than Dumbledore and Voldemort. I don't get it.

I guess my point is that the information in the prophecy is kind of mut now. 1. He's already done that. . .knowing it says that in the prophecy won't change that it has already happened. 2. He's already gotten several tastes of that-so he's probably finished taking Harry's "luck" for granted. 3. Hasn't this been his main goal now, regardless of hearing the prophecy? He's been, having already succeeded in remaining virtually indistructable, trying to kill Harry. And he knows that Harry would like to kill him. I'm not trying to say that he shouldn't want to hear it . . . but it just doesn't really seem all that important.

I have a big irritation with the Order for guarding this thing so absolutely. I think that was just another thing they didn't need to protect so dilligently. Perhaps they were guarding it in hopes that Voldemort would go get it himself, and that was their true purpose for standing guard. To catch Voldemort, not to keep him from hearing a prophecy.

I suppose the whole "respect" thing is just personal. If it were an important goal to you, then it would be worthwhile to you to pursue respect at any cost, dangerous or not. If there is elements of danger, more the better actually. Would I have had more respect for Arthur for pulling that sword out of the stone if he'd risked pulling it with a thousand soldiers clammering to stop him? Probably. . .I'd have thought him braver, indeed. As it is impressive that he could pull the sword from the stone at all is impressive in itself, surely. . .but it would have been a greater victory had he had severe opposition at that precise moment.

Hmm. . .probably a bad analogy.

I'm not sure that it is such an irrational notion after all. Narcissa herself seems to think that he is capable where Voldemort had failed. . .she seems to esteem his power over Voldemort's. He's a greater Occlumens than at least one of them. . .(A dumb movie line has entered my head here. . ."It is true that his power does exceed my own." Sigh. Have to stop now before I get out of control.)

And I don't even think it was sincere.

I think he returned on Voldemort's orders to do what Voldemort wanted, and took advantage of the position he was in when Voldemort crashed, to stay alive - exactly how he explained it to the girls.

I think he has always hated having to hide behind DD's skirts when once he was so close to having real power, and that is part of the reason why he hates Harry so much.

So having been saved by keeping a foot in each camp once, it is not unreasonable for him to do so again.

Think of it this way, if he really is willing to work for Voldemort, he had very little to fear in going back, and was once again important. So it was only very dangerous for Snape to go back if he was truly spying on Voldemort (keeping in mind DD would believe the best and rely alot on trust).

Words fail me...I can't argue with that. Sadly. The only thing that came to mind about that was the possibility that perhaps Snape allowed Dumbledore to read his mind via Legilimancy, to see and feel his remorse and sincerity for himself. Either that, or he has allowed Dumbledore to see a memory in a Pensieve, but as we know that memories can be tampered with (not without leaving a trace, but...) that wouldn't be reliable either. And when you couple this with JKR's comments about Dumbledore's mistakes, that there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Dumbledore saw or heard anything other than what Snape told him and Snape's speech in the beginning of the book, even I have to admit that it's a flimsy argument. *sighs heart-brokenly*

I have to admit to not being particularly convinced by my own arguments about Emmeline either. I grant you, we're in the realms of supposition about the whole thing and you can't argue with the fact that Emmeline is very definitely dead, and someone killed her.

This quote though...it bothers me. It says that Dumbledore suspected Malfoy all along. If he did, why did he do nothing about it? Ron could have died...Katie could have died (incidentally, that necklace was mentioned back in CoS when Draco was at Borgin and Burks...interesting piece of foreshadowing Anyway...) Was that why Dumbledore was angry with Snape? Because he was trying to concentrate on the horcruxes, Snape was failing him by not watching Malfoy more closely (which he wasn't...because of the Vow, implying that Dumbledore didn't know about it)? That makes sense now, doesn't it? If Snape really was evil...he wasn't doing enough to stop Malfoy and Dumbledore was beginning to notice it, but because of his own conviction that Snape was good, it didn't occur to him that maybe Snape was working against him. Maybe he just thought that Snape wasn't trying hard enough. Which makes Dumbledore an immensely stupid, arrogant fool...not an "emotional" man, as JKR described him. *sigh*

I have a feeling that the problem here is simple - I know that Capricorn mentioned something about this - we Snape-is-good believers are working on the assumption that these books have some kind of deeper meaning, a message, a theme that JKR is trying to convey. I also think, (forgive me, guys) that we are "emotionally attached" to Snape and our desperate need to see good in him, to see a deeper meaning in the series as a whole, is colouring our perceptions of his actions and leading us to interpret things in a favourable light when, in reality, the less favourable interpretation would be the more logical one.

The thing is that JKR has proved that there isn't so much depth here as we want to believe - her pushing H/G and R/Hr together has proved that...the subtext that we wanted so much to believe in clearly just isn't there.

All Snape's actions are undoubtedly leading to one thing - self preservation. I don't think anyone can argue against that really. But what you guys have been saying about him risking more by playing both sides is true - doing that would be far more risky than just assuming one side. He must have realised, when he took that Vow, that the time was coming for him to show his hand. He had to protect Draco or he would have died - he had a choice to make, and he made it. He chose to save himself and Draco over Dumbledore and made the final step towards the DE's. To do that and still be on the side of good....it's just not really that credible, is it? *sigh*

As Capricorn said, how can you possibly commit the worst kind of treachery, and murder, and still be redeemed? Even if he sacrificed himself to save Harry, it doesn't wipe out the fact that he killed someone to save himself and betrayed the one man who believed in him, does it? It's just utterly heart-breaking, it really is. Would JKR pull off a redemption pattern in this way? I'm beginning to be forced towards the idea that yes, she would. She's done the shallow thing before and disappointed me...but then I guess that's my fault for looking more deeply than I should have done into what is, essentially, a children's book. Unless, of course, there is no redemption at all....in which case it's still shallow and I have absolutely no idea what she's shooting for at all by this whole series.

Maybe she's not shooting for anything...maybe she's just trying to tell a story - a simple story about a boy who becomes a hero. Well, I'm disappointed, that's all I can say really.

Oh, I need to take a break from this...I've lost the will to look any deeper at the moment because something at the back of my mind is nagging at me about being delusional again. I don't want to be coloured by what I *want* Snape to be, rather than seeing him for what he *is*.

Congratulations, prosecution....looks like you've got a convert. A disappointed one, granted, but a convert nonetheless....