Now see, this is the issue I have...I don't think that you can justify the H/G relationship by saying that is was below radar any more than you can criticise H/Hr, because we would say exactly the same thing about that and you can be pretty darn sure that we have a whole heap more evidence to back our opinions than you guys do to back yours. For every piece of evidence you could cite showing H/G, I'm 99.999% sure that I could produce at least two pointing towards H/Hr.

The thing is that it's all a matter of perspective and how you choose to view certain events.

R/Hr were always there - but the intimation that either of them saw the types of things in each other that partners look for - like, for example, he thought she was pretty, or she thought he was attractive - was very, very vague. It was in subtext and through interpretation of such events as the Yule Ball. Harry also thought Hermione was very pretty, but Ron got surly over it - there is equal justification there for both camps, depending on how you choose to view it.

H/G has never, ever been there. Never. Whatever evidence you think you've seen, Muggy, could be as open to interpretation as any other events in the books. Harry has never, ever thought of Ginny in a romantic way - or even so much as cast a second glance at her - until HBP. It was completely and utterly out of the blue and the flimsy evidence to say it wasn't is no more valid than the evidence that H/Hr's used to support the idea of their ship that so many H/G's can't see.

Now, for the revelation...hold on to your seats, guys, 'cos this is a biggy...

I'm beginning to settle for the H/G ship. I'm not anywhere near as happy with it as I would have been with a H/L ship, but I have to accept the canon and deal with it or else I'm going to be reading book 7, gritting my teeth the entire time...and I don't want to end up with lockjaw, so... But I will argue to my grave that this ship was out of the blue and that looking for clues for that would be tantamount to looking for clues that McGonagall harbours a secret desire for Dumbledore.

Oh, wow, Louise, I did have to hold on to my seat! It is fine and dandy that you have accepted it enough to read the seventh book in peace, but never let down on what you truly like.

To be completely honest, I didn't see much of things that pointed toward romantic things for H/G, but I did notice how Harry always was aware of what Ginny was doing. He only really started paying attention to her in book five. I think I started seeing a little more stuff in book five, contrary to you, Louise. I mean, I was reading the fifth book and I was just like...ah...what's going on here? But I didn't think that it would pull through. I was hoping for it, but I didn't think it wouuld really happen.

While I can't really say there has been romantic things for Harry and Ginny other than just noticing each other (which isn't really romantic), I can't really see romantic things for Harry and Hermione either. I think the bulk of where H/Hr was pulled from was OotP, but maybe that's just how I interpret it. And like you Louise, I feel like I could counter anything presented for H/Hr. To me, it's all about interpretation of how you read the books. Which is pretty cool if you think about it because the books can inspire lots of thinking.

Would I be upset if Harry and Ginny didn't end up together? Nah. I don't really care about Harry's love life to be honest. He needs to be worrying about Voldemort. Voldemort is his new love interest. And that sounds weird, but that is what I want him to focus on. I think Ron's going to die, so I would like something good for him to happen before he bites the big one.

Hm... I think I may be understanding more and more why I never saw the H/Hr ship on my own. I think the whole bulk of why I see it one way and you see it another way is because we're seeing it from an entirely different context, through an entirely different scope, and for entirely different purposes... And now that I see that, I actually have an enormous amount that I think I can say on the subject... if I only had the time. I just wanted to put this here to sort of make a marker of what I intend to dig into as soon as I can... I still disagree with H/G being "out-of-the-blue" but I can see how from a certain perspective, it totally is. I'll explain further in my next post...

Ms. Dressler, I've just been able to release my hold on my seat. What a revelation! What a great move!

I would first like to say I really never thought I would be getting into a SHIP thread...

Like some of the posters before me have said, I just didn't think that the whole romance/relationship aspect in the series was all that important... I mean, it made a lovely little sideplot and all, and I was absolutely thrilled when the final ones happened in HbP, but I was really more concerned with, you know, the fate of the wizarding world as we know it?

Alrighty then... That being said, I guess I should declare my sides...
I am H/G (Harry/Ginny), R/Hr(Ron/Hermione), L/T(Lupin/Tonks), and P/H (Pigwidgeon/Hedwig!)

For the purposes of this particular thread, I am going to limit my discussions to H/G and R/Hr.

I, too, was mighty surprised by the whole Harry/Ginny romance. In the beginning of SS and CoS, I was all "awe, poor Ginny... she has a girly crush on Harry, and he is too famous/complicated/old for her, and it's never going to happen...", and I didn't think it would. Then, in GoF, I was SORELY disappointed when Harry had a crush on Cho (what was he thinking? ). Next, in OoTP (despite what Louise says ), I definitely started to see some Harry/Ginny potential there...

Ginny was growing up. She wasn't the googly-eyed little girl that used to have a crush on Harry. But, alas, my heart was crushed yet again, when she started dating people. I, too, thought that Ginny had moved on for good... That Harry was doomed to a life with that whiny little basketcase Cho...

And I did happen to notice that Ginny was around quite a bit more in OoTP. She was now Hermione's best female friend (wouldn't want to take any emphasis away from the trio ), and seemed to finally have become mature enough to be on the same level as our trio. I noticed a massive difference in her, both emotionally and physically. Clearly, other boys at Hogwarts thought she was beautiful. She was now popular and sought after, and both Harry and Ron took notice.

Then, in HbP, I couldn't help but say to myself "she seems an aweful lot like Lily Potter...". They are both popular, beautiful, smart, talented, and, most importantly, self-confident. You know why Harry/Cho didn't work? Because Cho is a sloppy mess! She needs other people to say "just the right thing", and comfort her, and make her feel better all the time. Harry is busy fighting the most powerful Dark wizard ever known! He doesn't have time for that crap! That is why he and Ginny are perfect for each other . She is independent and has her friends and has her schoolwork, and Harry has his schoolwork/friends/fights-with-the-dark-lord to attend to. So, their lives are perfectly in synch. It worked out perfectly. And, at the end of HbP, when Ginny simply "understood" that Harry had to break up with her and go off fighting LV... WOAH . How much maturity does that show? What girl would just be like "oh, ok, I'll be miserable because I know it's for the best..."? You know who would? Ginny! Maturity rears its head, people...

Moving on...

As far as R/Hr goes, I don't have much to say on this subject. I saw it coming, I liked the detours that JK laid for us with H/Hr, it was cute, a little confusing, but, nonetheless, not that confusing. I pretty much saw it coming. I was happy about it, but there just wasn't any "woah look at that!" factor, like with H/G.

Now if anyone wants to talk about L/T ... oops... ok... nevermind

I don't think I can add much to what LilyPotter has written.
Jo indeed wants to make Harry/Ginny mysterious and complicated, whereas Ron/Hermione is a steadily growing one. It's nice to see that Jo valued the importance of time to proof true love. Ginny's love for Harry may start from a crush, but it grows steadily to be an unselfish love. Ginny understands that Harry has to save the world. She successfully overcome her jealousy at other people. She maintains her love from afar without being intrusive (like Romilda, for instance). Harry has never really ignored Ginny. Being a boy, he could not understand the significance of girl's affection, until he got bad taste from short fling with Cho. Now he realises what's real and what's not. Harry/Ginny has become a great romance with all kinds of hurdles in between, carefully designed since Book 1.

I agree with what Muggleview said.

I also think, however, that the H/G relationship was sort of "out of the blue" as Louise says. Not in that we did not know there was something between Ginny and Harry, but the way in which Harry suddenly realizes he is in love with Ginny. There are a couple of instances before he spies her kissing dean thomas in the hall where Harry thinks something that sort of hints at feelings toward Ginny, and, if you remember Muggleviews arguments prior to HBP there were instances throughout the books where Harry would glance over at Ginny, or share a look with her or something through the first five books, but really those could have been anything. I mean, Harry was fascinated and dazzled by Lavender's hair during his HoM Owl, but that meant nothing.

However, sometimes that is how love works, and so I think it works for the story. I know I myself have been friends with a girl for years, and then suddenly realized I had fallen in love. Infact, I believe the realization came when she got involved with one of my friends and I became insanely jealous for the first time in my life. Sometimes, infact, we men only realize a woman is attractive and desireable when we see her with someone else.

What we have here is a case presented by Jo Rowling. A case of a boy who has been in close proximity with his soulmate for years, but didn't realise it until much later.
The term "out of the blue" can be attributed to the shock effect the book has. However, once the end point is known, it's possible to trace back the previous hints and see the trail the author left leading to the conclusion. It's not quite out of nothing. It's a revelation.
Rereading the series again, we can still dig out more clues. For example: do we realise that Harry was also speechless to Ginny? In Book 3, Ginny said "Hello" to Harry. Harry failed to say anything. Cleverly, we are given Harry's description that Ginny was very taken etc..., but in fact, Harry was silent for a while. In the train, Harry couldn't get the word out in Ginny's presence, that he didn't want Ginny to hear that Sirius (supposedly) was going to kill him. Somehow Harry didn't want Ginny to know that he's in danger.
In Book 4, there are much conversation post World Cup Quidditch, Harry only captured a bit here and there, but he was apparently the only one realising that Ginny had fallen asleep while holding her chocolate mug askew.
I tried to rephrase the sentences, but it didn't work well. It's clear that the author has formulated the phrases as such with a strong intention: Harry actually also is very taken with Ginny, but being a boy (according to the female author) he can still have an eye for another girl (Cho) in the process. Still, news about Ginny having a boyfriend managed to get through Harry's mind and then, suddenly we read more about Ginny's boyfriend.
Those are a unique literary style utilised by Jo Rowling, leaving the trails to support the revelation.

Some of those instances are pretty thin, muggleview. However, I think it more likely that Harry began developing his feelings during GoF, when Hermione told him Ginny had "given up on you ages ago." Remember, he felt a bit disappointed? I know for a fact that it is somewhat annoying to have someone you're not interested in chasing after you, but the moment they stop you can't help but wonder why. Is there something wrong with me? Which causes you to start looking at them closer.

After that he spent a lot more time in her company at Grimmauld Place over the summer. He grew to respect her for her magical abilities and talents during OotP and the DA sessions, and later in the DoM. Then in HBP he was with her quite a bit, during Quidditch practices, joking around with her, at the Slug Club meetings.

These are the reasons I say it was not out of the blue. If all JK did to point it out were a few vague instances of Harry noticing Ginny while no one else seemed to then it would be out of the blue. However, those instances taken in conjecture with all the rest could actually have been planted for a purpose.

So...this thread has been quiet for a long time. Thought I might throw something in here.

I have a feeling she went looking for the diary because she was frightened. It wasn't because she was interested in Harry or anything like that, but she was so afraid of the diary and Tom that once she knew Harry had gotten hold of it, she couldn't let him keep it. Being a teenage girl, she was also probably afraid of what Tom would tell Harry since she had spilled a lot to Tom in that diary. Any girl is going to be shy about that type of stuff, usually around that age.

I don't really understand how it is always said Ginny was selfish her first year there. She was new to the world and she was talking to a diary that talked back. She was young and naive, not selfish. Once she began to be frightened by the diary, she tried to throw it out, but Harry got hold of it, giving her a whole new set of problems. Perhaps I'm totally skipping around what Die Zimtzicke wanted to be explained, but that's that.

And if anything, wouldn't this be good for non-H/G shippers? Harry isn't going to be real interested in someone who trashes his room. At least I don't know anyone that would be. Course, he didn't knew who it was, but I don't know why this would help either ship.

I'll probably regret wading in here, but oh well.

Maybe I should state my current ships perspective before I comment. I am one of those lucky enough not to have questioned Jo's ships. Not intentionally, really, or because I particularly love Ron and Hermione together (I do ), but I just seriously didn't know people were rooting for Harry and Hermione to end up together. I didn't even have a clue what a 'ship' was until March this year. I have a suspicion that had I entered into fandom before HBP, the arguments of the H/Hr shippers may have swung me. I can't say, though. Anyway, so I'm in the happy position not to have a problem with R/Hr - I saw the anvil sized hints and never looked any further.

As for Harry, I seriously thought he was going to end up alone. I actually thought it would be rather cheesy if he had a girlfriend at all (taking my acceptance of R/Hr into account). The trio were the trio, and I couldn't imagine a fourth person joining them and fitting in. Yeah yeah, Ginny hung out with them over the summer, but she was... extra. She will never really be part of our trio, no matter what happens in book 7.



Yeah, but doing that with a love story is rather silly, imo. A whodunit could work brilliantly in that way. Agatha Christie is the master of that type of storytelling, but I have never read a good love story where that style worked.

If I could give an example of a love story where the author told it from a bit of a distance, it's Marianne and Brandon in Sense and Sensibility. Their courtship is told of from a distance, and most of it happens after the action of the story has passed. But the greatest difference there is the incredible depth the two characters have. We already know Marianne very well, we know enough about the Colonel to realise that he really loves her. Even though we don't read much dialogue of his, his actions speak louder than words ever could.

This, for some reason, works. I attribute that to two things, which is the incredible character development up to that point, and the fact that Marianne and Brandon are not the main characters. It's Elinor we know best anyway, and if there is a love story that gets the most attention, it is, in fact, Marianne and Willoughby.

Sadly, Harry and Ginny can't be paralleled to that, nor to any other great love story I know. I like Ron and Hermione way more than Harry and Ginny, because I just don't care enough about Ginny. Even if I did 'like' her, like I 'like' Fred and George for instance, I still just don't care enough. In that sense, if Harry had to have a girl, Hermione would be the best choice, because I do care about what happens to her.

To be quite honest, I don't see how Harry having a girlfriend fits in with the story. Jo started them off as a trio, meaning that if two of them decided to hook up, the third will be left out of it to some degree. Without giving it much thought, I figured it to be Ron and Hermione, and it made sense to me that Harry didn't have time, energy or need of a girlfriend. He had a Dark Wizard to fight, for crying out loud. I thought Cho was put in there to show that Harry and girls didn't go together, because he just had way more on his mind.



I agree that she wasn't being selfish, Aubrey. Here again though, we would never have wondered whether she was selfish or not if she hadn't kissed Harry. She was just there, little girl in the background - Fred and George got way more screentime.

Meh, I just don't care about her.

Jo Rowling said she hoped to follow Jane Austen's example of surprise romantic pairings at the end. Noting that Harry Potter series is actually Jo's first writing, Jo hasn't reached the masterful style Ms. Austen showed in the like of "Emma" or "Sense and Sensibility".
The surprise works best if the storyline is flowing through one continuous record. HP series is 7 individual books that can be linked together; it's not the same as one big book with 7 parts in it. Hence, we saw discontinuities. Some contributing factors can be that the author has more time to think about the plot more thoroughly and deviates from the original plan, or the editors have contributed to the changes in the original plan (such as, cutting off some "redundant" information for the sake of less pages). Somewhere, some information and data are missing in the final printings.

About the debate itself, we are actually discussing at least two different aspects:
1. From the storyline itself, which "ships" does the author intend?
2. Do we like what the author intends?

Aspect number 1 is the main reason for the debate.
Aspect number 2 is very subjective. For instance, Ginny. Not everyone likes her.
Nonetheless, the author may have intended to pair Ginny with Harry.

Are the hints, clues, traces, nuances, facts from the books support Harry/Ginny?
My answer is yes.
Do I like the pairing?
Coincidentally yes.

I missed that - Jane Austen?! Gracious no, she's definitely not there yet...

I loved Emma by the way. You're right, that is a perfect instance of a whodunit-type romance. Completely forgot about that.

Spoilers for Emma following - for what it's worth...

I have never heard anyone complain about Emma and Mr. Knightley ending up together. It's the type of 'revelation' that leaves everyone feeling like a mole for not seeing it all along! There is also not one person I have ever come across who isn't thrilled by the ending.

And that's the difference between Jane Austen and JK Rowling. (Jane Austen?!) There are seas of readers who were left distinctly underwhelmed by the kiss and subsequent blitz-romance between Harry and Ginny.

The bottom line is not whether random individuals like Ginny or not, but whether there was proper character development for her. And the answer lies in numbers, simple as that. An author has failed when many intelligent, interested and mature fans don't like a character she wants them to like. Ginny probably has the biggest hate-following in fandom, and not because hoards of teenage girls are secretly in love with a fictional boy wizard. I'm betting Jo wasn't intending to shock fans into disgust when she planned her 'surprise'.

Nah, this isn't about we here loving or hating Ginny. Why have I never come across anyone who 'hated' Mr. Knightley? There are enough sensible fans who dislike Ginny to be able to say with confidence that Jo has not achieved what she wanted to. Unless she wanted half the fandom to dislike one of own favourites...

Mr. Knightley and Emma are as real as two love interests can be. There are passages upon passages of interaction between them and their love for each other is obvious all along, but not in a romantic sense. From the very start everyone knows that both characters respect and love each other, and it's only their romantic love that surprises. We know and love Mr. Knightley before we realise that he and Emma are to be married.

The same can not be said of Harry and Ginny, without really stretching the clues that lie few and far between. This was the perfect time for a few anvil sized hints.

It might be noted that Sense and Sensibility was one of Jane Austen's first novels. It was the first to be published, and the first draft of it was started between 1795 and 1797 together with Northanger Abbey and Pride and Prejudice.

I'm sorry, Jo is a terrific writer, but in terms of romance she will never be in the league of Jane Austen. To tell the truth, I haven't seen anything of Jane Austen's acute and ironic wit in the Harry Potter books. Yes, Jo is very funny, and I absolutely love her sense of humour, but there is something hilariously haughty and acute about Austen's sense of humour that makes her such a wonderful romance author. It's like she cuts right to the bone of her life-sized characters.

No way can Emma and Mr. Knightly ever be compared to Harry and Ginny.



Whether that's true or not doesn't cut any ice, I'm afraid. It's what's left in print that matters, and her or anyone else making excuses for Jo will not do anything to change our opinion of the characters. It's her book, and she alone is responsible for what ends up in it. I've never heard of an author complaining in all seriousness about losing out on a prize because his editor cut out some stuff. It just doesn't work like that.

And if it's so difficult to manage something like this over a series of seven books, whose fault is that? This isn't an essay competition. It's a series for which she earns loads of money. I'm not about to sympathise with her because she had to write seven books instead of one.

Your own concession that details could be missing proves that what we see of Harry and Ginny isn't enough to sway enough of the fans. That's the bottom line.

Apparently I need to get into some of Jane Austen's stuff because I really have no idea what you are talking about. Well, I do, but I ahven't read the books, so I really can't get the full meaning behind what you are saying. Does that make sense at all?

I do agree with you. I've never really solidly pictured Harry with anyone, though I have no problem with Ginny. It seems to me like Harry was just destined to be alone. Sad, yes, but some things just can't be happy. He's lost everyone close to him and he did realize at the end of HBP he would have to do things alone. As strong of a character as Ginny is, I still don't think there's really a girl that could put up with Harry. I blame it more on him than I do on any girls.

Like you again, Laurette, I came to HP without questioning the ships. I had seen movie 3 before I read anything, and the hand grab in that movie really had me hooked onto R/Hr. It's basically what I fell for first, and since I have read the books, I've pretty much attached myself to it. Then when I came onto the internet and saw talk of H/Hr...wow. It was a real eye opener. And then my crazy HP obsession began shortly thereafter...

I find it interesting how people start shipping what they do. Why is it that I saw R/Hr in the movies rather than H/Hr, when both ships can find reasonable evidence in the movies? Perhaps it all comes down to characters you like. I like Ron...therefore I want his best interests, which would be Hermione. Others prefer someone like Hermione, and since Ron is mean to Hermione, they want her with Harry. (Not true with everyone, but I have seen it in lots of discussions around sites.)

Jo isn't really a romance writer...probably not to the level of someone like Jane Austen. (Having not read Ms. Austen's books...couldn't really make any real comparisons.) But I think what has to be remembered is sometimes authors choose to show romance in a more realistic way. How anything could really be realistic in Harry Potter, I don't know. All the cheesy stuff like in movies like Walk to Remember and The Notebook...don't ever really happen. Maybe sometimes, but it is really rare. Even more rare with teens. That's where I think Jo has portrayed the romance correctly--she has shown the awkwardness of it all and the difficulties. It did go a little crazy with the H/G kiss, but other than that, I was pleased with the portrayal throughout the series. Though that kiss still made me smile.

You and Aubrey have correctly captured the difference. Jane Austen intended to write romance books. Jo Rowling intended to write adventure books, with romance as one of the additional spices.
In her own words, Jo chose to develop her adventure storyline in more details than the romance storyline. This is obviously disappointing for regular romance book readers. All romances in HP series are told in broken pieces, not in a smooth continuity. Still, all the information so far have led to an unambiguous endpoint that the author has intended.
Like it or not, R/Hr and H/G are the logical consequences of the built-up in the series.

As far as similarities, you, Aubrey and I are not real "shippers", because we came to the series not for the ships. I found the "shipping war" interesting, in terms of how readers might perceive the author's intent. Clearly, some readers invest more feelings into the ships. This can blur the real purpose of the debate. We could have easily agreed on the results, and disagreed respectfully whether the results are likeable for each individual.

JustTheDroobles is right to say that Harry is intended to be a lone hero. Books after books showed that at the end Harry had to fight alone. Therefore, there is no counterpart heroine in the series. Despite knowing that this may cause Ginny-hating more, I have to say that Ginny is meant to be a Hero-reward to Harry; just like the fairy-tale princesses to the valiant princes who completed dangerous tasks (including releasing the princesses from captivity).
Ginny was developed as a rare jewel, carefully polished and stored in a desirable jewelry box, with nasty evil things lurking around. Once the evil things are removed, the hero will get the jewel and supposedly have a happy life ever after.
I find that the logic to match Harry and Ginny is much simpler than generally thought. Harry is a hero, Ginny is the beautiful princess. Harry needs unconditional love, Ginny has shown clear unconditional love to Harry since the beginning. Harry has rough sides, Ginny occassionally shows her rowdy sides. Harry likes humour, Ginny possesses Ron's wit, etc.
As we can see, this is not a well-balanced romance development. It's more a match-making romance, which reflects the current modern trends for single adults. The computer is used to match criterias and, voila... here's the pairing.
On the other hand, Ron and Hermione relationship is a tribute to the classical romance with tensions and bickerings, simulating Jane Austen's style.

I find myself agreeing with Louise on the point that Harry/Ginny relationship appeared just out of the blue and it also appears kind of forced. It found it strange that suddenly Ginny became such a prominent character in the sixth book and suddenly we had all these references about her being "pretty, charming, popular, athletic" and so on and how she would be perfect for Harry. Make no mistake about it, Ginny is a fantastic character and has displayed enough fortitude and character to come into her own as a person, out of the shadow of her siblings, but her "transformation" or rather JKRs attempts at convincing Harry and the readers that Ginny always had these qualities that makes her perfect for Harry, doesn't cut much ice. It seems that she realised too late that Ginny needed a makeover and here we are. This makes the whole Harry/Ginny fiasco much too forced and I would certainly not venture that far out to call them soulmates.

Though, Harry "recognized" his feelings for Ginny, neither did he contemplate nor was he advised by Dumbledore to include Ginny in the list of people who were aware of what Harry was actually dealing with. I am sure in most cases, a soulmate would be privy to the deepest secrets of their "other half". The surprising thing is that even after Harry and Ginny became an official couple, there was no attempt on Harry's part to include Ginny in his scheme of things. Even though the things were a bit rocky between the three of them, Harry made it a point to discuss all events and information he had come to know of, with Ron and Hermione. Ginny was never in the picture and that doesn't sound like a "soulmate" relationship to me.

It is entirely possible that one reason Harry noticed Ginny was that she "gave up" on her idol worship and actually "started admiring" Harry for what he truly was as a person and not the heroic figure she had in her mind possibly derived from fairy tales recited to her in her childhood. This is a perfect example of how a person has evolved over time and it's extremely likely that most relationships in the series are going to go through several rough patches before they finally "stabilise". In such instance, assuming the fact that Harry and Ginny will stay together forever seems to be a bit risky. We saw how Harry changed during the year and the following year will be a difficult one for him and his friends. After the war ends and if he survives, will he be the same person he was before? Will the relationships be the same? Difficult to tell.

Looking at the way, HBP shaped up, I guess it's safe to assume that romantic interludes are definitely not JKRs forte. At least she's not consistent with them.

P.S. This is slightly off topic, so put it here. I thought I found something very interesting with the JKR interview on Mugglenet and TLC. None of the questions (or most of the answers in fact) were actually insightful or probing. It's as if all the concerned parties had agreed to stick to safer and routine questions that made the whole conversation quite unidimensional. Perhaps it was more convenient that way

Mayfair, I love you, and I want to have your babies! Other than Westerly, I don't think anyone else has really captured the way I feel about this whole thing so eloquently.



As do I. I don't care what anyone else says, or how people choose to delude themselves into reading more into situations and events than there is, the simple fact of the matter is that Ginny was a background, unimportant character until book six. Yes, she was important in book two, but then Sirius was important in book three too but he's not done a whole lot since, other than dying of course. Ditto Fleur and Victor - both important in book 4, not since. So why believe any different of Ginny?



Oh most definitely not. It always makes me smile when I see shippy comments about how in love they are, how they're made for each other, how they're soul mates and are going to get married and have lots of babies together - I mean, where on earth do these ideas come from? And all the criticisms I've ever heard of the H/Hr ship being drippy and sentamentalistic and based on nothing...yet it seems that most opinions on the H/G are based on not much more. Harry never really engaged with Ginny in any true sense of the word, hence the relationship feeling so artificial and forced. I would so much have preferred to see Harry with Luna, and at many times during HBP, I genuinely thought that JKR might have been heading that way. Disappointed though I was that H/Hr didn't work out, I felt pretty happy with H/L - I thought it was wonderful how she made Harry question himself and think a bit more deeply than he had been about the consequences of his actions without having to directly confront him. I thought that was beautiful, clever, and very insightful; very Austen-like. So it was quite the hammer blow when I could see the U-turn that JKR made towards the end. I could barely bring myself to read those sections where Ginny was sitting with him while they were in that brief little fling, it sickened me so...it felt so artificial and almost surreal.

I have to be honest, I never really hated Ginny until then. I thought she was kind of cute, a bit sappy, suffering from this hero worship thing. Aw, sweet little thing, I thought. But when I saw what JKR was trying to do, that's when I started to loathe her character because she just felt so flat, dimensionless, artificial and forced, and I still to this day can't see the point of that fling even being included, other than to keep the masses of younger people who read these books happy. Even R/Hr at least had some kind of build up, even I would never deny that. But I don't think that anyone, being reasonable and considered, could ever say that H/G was coming a mile off. If it was, then it was very poorly done, and JKR is capable of doing far better than that.

I think it's testament to how little she considers that sort of relationship in these books that she didn't spend more time developing it. It's quite clearly not that important in the grand scheme of things, and I've very pleased about it because the last thing I want to read in this final book is pages and pages of twittering about how much in love a couple of teenagers are.



No, definitely not - and it's also the reason I dislike the Lupin/Tonks ship so much, because that was exactly the same - artificial and forced, robbing the reader of any real satisfaction in seeing their "happiness". The only real ship in HBP with feeling, build up, and satisfaction is the R/Hr one. I'm happy with that, I think it's sweet and I can see it going somewhere in the future. Even Bill/Fleur was surprisingly satisfying in the end. But H/G will never be, and I can only hope that when JKR said that they were always meant to come together and then to part, that she was telling the truth.

I also have to agree that you could never compare JKR and Austen. Though I love JKR's work, she's not even in the same league as Austen. I'm not saying she's not capable of being in time, perhaps, but certainly not on the current evidence.

Wow, I had no idea that there was such a movement against Ginny! I love what everyone has written so far, and wanted to share an observation.

I have to start by saying that when I lived in Italy everyone called me Ginevra because that's the Italian version of Guinevere which is my full name, so naturally anyone with the name Ginevra is someone with which I have an affinity, so forgive me if I am already biased.

As to the lack of dimension of Ginny's character we have only Harry himself to blame. The books are told from his point of view, so it follows that he would not have noticed her (she would not have been expounded very much), until he noticed her (she would be written in more detail). I'm reading GOF again right now, and it's clear to me Ginny's feelings about Harry when Ron tells her she should go with Harry and she says that she's already going with Neville. Page 401 in the american softcover edition "[Neville] asked me when Hermione said no, and I thought . . . well . . . I'm not going to be able to otherwise . . ."
I interpret that as: she doesn't think that Harry would ever ask her.
'" . . . I'm not in fourth year." She looked extremely miserable.'
Why does she look extremely miserable? Because this would have been her chance to go to the Yule Ball with Harry! But she said yes to Neville! Argh!

Now we obviously don't get that insight into her feelings like we would have if this had been a novel written by Jane Austen and the heroine was Ginny Weasley, because this novel is written from Harry's Point of View, not Ginnys, and the author is JKR, not Jane Austen (one of my favorites as well Louise). So of course her character seems shallow and underwritten until the sixth book, because it took that long for Harry to stop thinking of her as Ron's little sister, and to start thinking of her as a young woman who can date other young men.
So those are my thoughts, I hope they don't appear too unsubstantiated, and Cheers!

I think at some point the question ceases to be which ships work for people and which don't, but rather how important ships are to the Harry Potter world. Especially in the case of H/G - there's a link.

That's essentially what you're getting at SpinJam? Because Harry, the main character through which we're told the story, is a teenage boy, it's he who dictates what we know about the ships - sort of. They're important if he thinks they're important.

Which is all fine, I'd say. By all means, it could be said that the ships aren't the main thing. It's easy for me to say I'm not a shipper, because the ships aren't that important, so sucks to everyone who thought so. The problem is, though, that before HBP came out I might have gotten away with it. Not afterwards.

Ginny like she was in OotP was cool. I liked her. She was nice to Luna, she had spunk and she was independent. Her boyfriends were a little silly, but I guess every one's allowed their silly moments, especially in their teen ages. It's just when these silly moments don't exactly make way for wiser ones that it irks me to think of her and Harry together. I didn't mind her because she didn't really matter.

It was Jo herself who forced the idea of her and Harry as a serious relationship on us. In a way, I did wonder at the end of HBP whether everyone would eventually pair up. A phrase you used, Louise, in the Snape loved Lily thread kind of sums it up nicely:



The stuff of cheese!

I got a little queasy at the point in Dumbledore's funeral where it seemed as though everyone had finally found someone. Lupin and Tonks, Bill and Fleur, Neville helping Luna into a seat, Harry and Ginny, Ron and Hermione. Meh, at that point I still didn't know what a ship was (that nice escape clause again ), so I think that I can say that I was pretty objective in that respect. I thought it was cheesy.

I read in the thread on first reactions to HBP someone saying they felt as though Jo had written a fanfic. She did want to give the idea of these pairings emotional weight by drawing the focus towards them at Dumbledore's funeral. I don't know, but somehow Jane Austen wasn't ever guffy about romance, even though her books are devoted to romantic love.

Jo tried two things at once, and it didn't work. She made the ships a sub plot, because the romance that got the most attention did not include the main character. She also tried to use the idea as a powerful one. I personally thought McGonagall's comment to Lupin and Tonks about the fact that Dumbledore would probably not have minded a bit more love in the world was inappropriate in that moment and uncharacteristically teenage romance-like.

I'm not being very articulate, I know. I find it difficult to pinpoint exactly why I think it's cheesy and to give a blow by blow account of where she went wrong. You just have to wonder if so many people could be misinterpreting it all or whether there is cause to doubt the way she went about the ships.

As we exit the world of Jane Austen and agree that Jo Rowling is not Jane Austen, we can be back to the reality that Jo Rowling's books are promoted mostly for pre-teens and teenagers. Jo herself wrote with that age group in mind. We all know that the majority of readers are not teenagers, but of all ages. That's where the small imperfections are magnified.
As Capricorn stressed repeatedly, romance is not intended to be a significant storyline. Jo may have thought she could just casually tell the readers this boy will be with that girl without too much details. Unexpectedly, there was shipping wars, causing the romance storyline to be scrutinized and unanimously declared not satisfactory. "We want more".
Let's reflect ourselves, as I believe we all love Harry Potter series: is Harry Potter series with the existing romantic storyline good enough as a masterpiece, or must it also contain an entertaining romances? In my opinion, as an adventure series, HP series has its class, including the romantic aspects. We have come to the penultimate book with most romances clarified to a certain degree, leaving the last book for a great audacious ending. We can always rant that Romeo should be with Rosaline instead of Juliet, because Rosaline was more mature, but Mr. Shakespeare decided that it's Romeo and Juliet. They met only once and fell in love and married (underage) and died. A great love? Apparently many literate people say so.
Harry has described several girls, and then he showed us he likes Ginny. Why should we protest his choice? Ron and Hermione's relationship has been developed from the very first encounter, more apparent in later books. Should anyone deny it? Even it's not to our liking, the series has followed a plan that beyond anyone but the author to decide. But if everything is so fixed, what's left to be debated?

Nothing at all, I guess. I see what you're saying, just accept what JKR has done and get over it, but the thing is that I simply can't accept something if it doesn't make sense and if I believe it does a disservice not only to the author's integrity as a writer, but also to the stories overall.

Tell you what it smacks of to me - crowd pleasing. Pure and simple. And I have to wonder at the tracings of desperation that seems to indicate. If ships are not important to the plot, which they aren't, then just include them as a little light relief here and there. That's fine. But at least make it believable. Otherwise, you may as well stick all the characters names in a hat and pull them out as complete random pairings... Lets stick...erm....Mcgonagall with Snape, Lupin with Ginny, Dumbledore with Sprout, Harry with Lavender, Hermione with Blaise. Yeah, looks good to me.

It indicates that JKR almost doesn't care, and if she doesn't care, then why include them at all? Do you see what I'm saying? It's almost as though fan pressure is dictating the outcome of certain aspects to the books which indicates that she never really had an idea about where they were going when she started writing, particularly if it's only in retrospect that some of the "evidence" makes sense. You can retro-analyse any book in the world and say, yeah, I saw that coming, regardless of whether or not the author intended that particular interpretation, simply because every single person who reads a book will interpret it in their own way.

No, ships aren't important in the great scheme of things. But my point is that the shabbiness of how this particular ship was pulled together is indicative of a general feeling about the books as a whole - I sincerely hope that JKR hasn't adopted the 'oh, that will do' attitude to the Harry/Voldemort storyline or I have a feeling that fundamentalists won't be the only ones heaping HP books onto the bonfire.

Louise, I Love you too!!! and it would be great if we could have babies together, coz we seem to think alike on so many issues!!!! Perhaps we could spawn a new legion of HP fans with views more in line with ours

Seriously though, I agree with you there. If we are just to accept all that JKRs written in her books then what's there to debate about. It's like let's not discuss how Harry will get rid of Tom because that's what is going to happen anyway. Let's not talk about how the characters have turned out because its JKRs prerogative. No one denies that. She's come up with an excellent series and has all right to shape it as she wants. But that does not mean that I have to accept all her portrayals as sacrosanct.

If we look at those carefully, she's not been entirely original in her series either. Much of her works draws from ancient, medieval and modern literature on fantasy. Take magical beasts for instance. Vampires, Werewolves, Griffins, Dragons, Unicorns are not new. She has modified their portrayal to suit her story lines because she felt they were better that way. Similarly most people who read her books have differing perceptions on how things should have worked out and that's reflected in numerous fan fictions out there. Those who were dissatisfied with her stuff chose to write their own. Louise's assertions to that fact are quite valid. Many readers have felt that JKR messed up big time with romantic relationships in her series and that's not just because she favored a different pairing. It's because some of her pairing are just too forced. Look Harry/Ginny for instance. Two characters who haven't interacted with each other for more than 15 minutes put together in first five books are suddenly proclaimed as soulmates? I mean how unbelievable can you get. Ginny come in from being a no body to be all and end all of Harry's life? That's something I find so hard to digest. If JKR really wanted to have them come together as she claims, she could have at least put some sort of a build up there a la Ron and Hermione. But what do we have here is that the "slow build-up" relationship has the characters still dancing around each other, while "no build-up" relationship is all over with people proclaiming that how it was always meant to be. Like Louise points out, retro-analysis is a great thing and you'll always find clues after the treasure hunt is over. If not find them, you'll manufacture them and that's what seems to have happened in the case of Harry/Ginny relationship.

I find myself in agreement with you Louise when you talk about some sort of pressure on JKR to lean in a particular direction. Whether these pressures are commercial or political is not clear but they are there. Is it a wonder that two people chosen to interview JKR happened to have the same views on all aspects of Harry Potter? (Of course I am referring to the TLC/MN interview). The questions were too convenient and only serve to support one point of view. It's as if it was to justify all that has been portrayed in the books. For instance there was no question on why JKR refused to train Harry and how would he with his limited skills would take on an exceptional wizard like Tom Riddle. But what we have is this-"It's a tall ask, he'll do it..... somehow". Thank you for being obvious. I am also surprised that this question has never come up in any of the interactions JKRs been a part of. It's almost as if participants are selected for how comfortable their questions will be for her.

With the way she has left things in HBP, she would really need to pull a big rabbit out of her hat to make this convincing.

I agree with you Mayfair. There is no reason why one should accept everything from an author. Books aren't either extremely good or completely horrid. It's perfectly fine to enjoy certain aspects while criticising others.

I've been trying to figure out why I'm as unhappy as I am with the fact that the Ginny-clues are only visible when you retrace everything. I think I've figured it out, for me at least.

I'm not an H/Hr shipper. It just doesn't really feel right in canon, because I never read the books that way, but having read quite a few fanfics where it works beautifully, it was easy to acknowledge that the two characters fitted. Why, then, have I never read any H/G fanfics where I really bought it? I had attributed my disgust for the pairing to the fact that it was badly done, but fanfic is the one place where it could be 'put right' in a way.

Thing is, if you take R/Hr out of the equation for a moment, it is screamingly obvious that H/Hr is set up better than H/G in so many ways that there can be no comparison. I mean, there's an established dynamic between Harry and Hermione. Their relationship has a personality of its own. If she says something, we know how he'd react and vice versa. They've been through everything together, and they know almost everything about each other. They're practically family already. There's a deep friendship between the two of them that can only be rivaled by Harry's friendship with Ron. For all intents and purposes, Ron and Hermione are Harry's family.

The sincere love Harry has for Hermione is already much deeper and greater than for any living non-trio character. I'm not saying they should necessarily have ended up together. What I am saying is that before that chest creature moved in, the possibility of a meaningful romance between Harry and Hermione was set up more fully than Harry and Ginny ever was, and was only ended by the chest creature robbing Harry of any credibility in that respect. And that is not just based on interpretation (because that wasn't even my original interpretation) - count the lines of dialogue between Harry and Hermione over 6 years, the amount of interaction that led to an ever deeper growing affection, and it's impossible to compare it to his *whatever* with Ginny.

I have never read a dedicated, strictly canon (in other words, canon Ginny) fanfic where the ship worked, as opposed to the few very nice H/Hr ones I've read. That's because there is nothing to go with on Ginny. There's not enough to her that makes her interesting with Harry. She either has to branch out and become someone else, which defeats the object anyway, because it has no canon build up, or it's a silly little fic about two slobbering teenagers.

It could be argued that fanfiction has nothing to do with this, but I beg to differ. Fanfic is a great medium through which to explore characters, and the base for that is canon. Well-written, character canon fiction is a projection of JK Rowling's own characterisation, and therefore a reasonable indication, if not exactly damning evidence, of her success or failure. With Ron still theoretically out of the equation, if she had gone with H/Hr in HBP it would have been much more believable than H/G, as quite a few talented fans have shown.

But that's just the point, isn't it? There's nothing to go with on Ginny, so it is understandable as to why the relationship seems odd. Jo has tried her best to develop Ginny's character, but she has only really done any decent development in the last two books, and she still is a bit of an enigma. We can't really see anything in her for us to understand why Harry is going to go for her, though I will try to explain that in a bit.

That said, I would like to say that I am definetly a H/G shipper, but I am so mostly because I am not a H/Hr shipper. I won't say that I never rooted for Harry and hermione, but after the 4th book, I saw that it wasn't going to happen, and I understood why. Ok, here's my thoughts.

Hermione: I know that hermione loves harry. I think that we can all agree on that. However, I do not think that it is romantic love. She sincerely cares about him, worries about him, loves him. But he is just not her type. You say, what? She goes for good-looking quiddich players. I know, I know. But think emotionally. Let's look at the two characters we know she likes. Ron and Krum. Both are emotionally distant. Both are complicated characters that she feels drawn to in a motherly way. "Oh, look at the poor, damaged boy. I want to make him feel better." That is a natural female response. I know that it might sound like a sexist statement, but I do not think it is. I am close friends with a lot of girls, and I've seen it time and time again. Harry does not instigate Hermione's motherly instinct, and he does not initiate her desire to "crack" him. Harry has his flaws, but, to her, he gets it. He's to "easy" for her. He's not a challange, and that's part of the draw for her. I just don't think that she would go for him.

Harry: I think Harry is a trickier subject. Our only example of a crush for Harry has been Cho, and that was almost entirely a physical attraction. About the only thing about her besides looks that I think we can take away from his attraction to her is her being a quiddich player, which really is about as notable as guys who like girls who play guitar. It's not really a big "must." I think that after the valentine's day disaster, Harry realizes that he wants a girl who he can connect with on a friend level and isn't shy all the time. He wants a girl who he can talk with and hang out with. He also wants someone who he can enjoy time alone with. That's part of the key here. Go back and re-read those points where harry and hermione are alone together. What does he miss? Ron. He is friends with Hermione, and likes talking to her, but he tires of her quickly. He and Hermione don't fully connect on that level, and Harry knows it (we've seen him ponder it on several occasions). Also, Hermione is definetly a "girl" (in the case of emotional depth and variability), and harry has had his fill of over-emotional girls.

Now to Ginny. Can you see now how Ginny might be Harry's type? She's a tomboy. That would appeal to him. She plays quiddich, and is good, so she meets that little quirk of his. More importantly, after she got over her shyness, she and Harry can and do joke together and have a lot of fun by themselves. He's content around her like he is with no other female in the series. I was unsure of the whole making-Ginny-a-major-character thing too when it first developed, but I totally bought the relationship, and I could see how Jo developed her. It makes sence. It's not ideal (it's not the most perfect relationship development in the literary world), but it works I think. It works better than anything else.

-Fish

PS: I didn't realize the connection between "ships" and "relationships" until earlier this week. boy I'm slow sometimes.

Just thought I'd throw this out there:

I started to mention this earlier, so I don't want to sound like I'm beating a dead dog or anything, but here's an interesting word connection:
'Ginny' is short for 'Ginevra' (not 'Genevieve' as is listed in this site)
'Ginevra' means 'Guinevere' in Italian
the origin of the name 'Guinevere' is welsh and the original welsh name 'Gwyn h'farr' (not the only spelling, I know) actually is the name of the snow white barn owl that is the type of owl that Harry has. I wonder if JKR knows this, and did it purposefully, in which case I bow to her as the queen of all word/name connections, or if it was a fluke?

For me that's why the whole Harry/Ginny thing works really well. By the way there is a really great article on this at the HP Lexicon. Hope everyone had a great weekend!

That's funny because I've seen that point turned on it's head. It has also been interpreted that Ginny comes from Ginevra, and then as it is linked to Guinevere, people think King Arthur. Guinevere is most known for her affair with Lancelot, and it has been pushed back on to Ginny saying she will not be loyal and it is jut in her character for her to just run off to whatever whim she so wishes. I don't really know who she'd be running off with, but King Arthur was betrayed by her.

I guess it's all in which name interpretation you prefer...

Oh I totally agree about the just in a name thing. When I first found out Ginny was short for Ginevra I was really worried that she might betray Harry at some point. Maybe in Book 7? But there is the idea, that she is just the "Hero reward" as Guinevere was for Arthur. I've always felt Ginny was a very loyal character though, and I don't really have too many worries. Maybe the whole betrayal thing has already been covered in book two? I apologize if I'm talking in circles, it's still early.

Now that's something I definitely disagree with. I am not sure that many females would take this generalization of them being branded as getting into a relationship that is really hard to carry. We would not do Hermione and her feelings any justice if we categorise her feelings for Ron and Harry as her response to different types of challenges. Not only does this demean their friendship, but also undermines the love she has for both Harry and Ron. I am not sure that challenge is what she was looking for, if that's the case then there are bigger challenges than Ron, there's Draco Malfoy (bad enough), Snape (not the "Alan Rickman" Snape, the thought makes me sick) and the biggest challenge of them all Tom Riddle. If a challenge is what Hermione was looking for, then there's no bigger challenge than Tom riddle.

The fact is that several romantic relationships are not meant to be seen with a logical frame of mind. People just fall in love and though things may not make sense to many out there, it's perfect for the two people involved. In case of Ron and Hermione something similar seems to have happened. They seemed to have fallen for each other, though at a glance one might feel that they have little that's in common, but underneath all these differences and varying perceptions is the love that they feel for each other. Lets accept the facts, before the sixth book came out, the perceptions on whether Hermione would pair up with Ron or Harry was an open question, with each scenario having their own band of supporters who would put up quite convincing arguments in favour of their viewpoint. It was after the fact that JKR clarified that it was going to be Ron/Hermione that the issue was settled and suddenly we were deluged with all the evidence pointing to the fact, conveniently forgetting that similar arguments could have been raised by the other side had they got their wish.

Now we heard all things about how Ginny is the best for Harry, but what we forget is that she's rarely seen him beyond his boy-who-lived persona and this seems to be further fortified when she says after their breakup "I know you won't rest till you have Voldemort.... one of the reasons why I love you...". Now howsoever you look at it, this is hero worship to me and she doesn't seem to have grown out of it. Another thing about Harry liking athletic girls, well I have never seen him falling for Angelina, Alicia or Katie Bell, who all are pretty tomboyish to me. He's fond of but never saw Tonks as a romantic partner in spite of her carefree outgoing nature. Before we talk about age, lets look at Tonks-Lupin, if that can happen in canon then age is definitely not an issue.

It's not that Harry feels more comfortable with Ginny than with others. In fact he's more comfortable with Harry and Hermione than with Ginny. Like I emphasised in my previous posts, he still hasn't shown any urgency in confiding his secrets to Ginny in spite of all that happened. Him, Ron and Hermione remain closer to each other than to anyone else. In spite of Ginny's forced prominence in the sixth book, she's still not the main character and to me it appears that Harry finds it easy to talk to her because she's like a good getaway from routine in his life. He can talk to her about things not concerning his future, but then he can do that with Hagrid, Neville and others as well. So does it mean that Ginny is just a get away for him?

Like Louise and Capricorn have remarked, Harry's meaningful interactions with Ginny have been few and far in between and most of their conversation revolves around mundane issues or non-issues. Maybe it works for some in canon and may gain wider acceptability considering the official stamp of approval, but I would always see that open as a case of a little girl finally getting what she wanted all along- her hero to marry her.

P.S. We all agree that JKR is no Jane Austen and her books are not meant to be as such, then perhaps she should think over it as well and get on to more meaningful issues such as how a average skilled half trained boy will take on the most evil wizard of all kind? We have heard about "love", but can somebody enlighten me exactly how will he use this "love"? What will he do with it??????. That's a different topic though, perhaps I'll put this up in suggestions section.

It may not just "just", it can be "IS a get away" for life.
Ginny IS a harbour for Harry's wandering. Harry felt no warm love since he was one year old. He found comfort in Ginny and her family. With her, he can be relieved from his youth angst. With her, he can taste a joyful life without Voldemort (Important later!). With her, he feels what love is, a direct love, not a hidden or complicated or dreamable one, but a very real one. Here is someone whom Harry loves and knows that she loves him as much. Isn't that enough reason for Harry and Ginny to be together?
Ginny IS a paradise for Harry, where there is no fear and terror. He knows hell (Voldemort) and he knows that Ginny IS the only other person who survived Voldemort and tasted hell (Tom Riddle's possession). When one tasted hell, one will be more grateful about paradise. Harry and Ginny can enjoy life, knowing that terror is out there, without fear, because they have had that fear. Ron and Hermione were nervous about Harry's encounter with Voldemort, and each with their own style bugging Harry about it. Ginny already knew the feeling, so she wouldn't need to know more about it. Harry can be at ease with her, even after Voldemort is no more.
So, Ginny IS a get away for Harry, as Harry is a get away for Ginny.

I'm sorry, Muggleview, but what exactly are you basing all this on? If only I could see where the canon behind that is, but I am still not convinced by the way things were done in the books.



I missed that. Totally. It wasn't real love. It was a teenage romance, and it was done in a patchy way. The time Jo spent on building Harry's friendship with Hermione is so much more than the time she spent building a romantic relationship between Harry and his supposed soul mate. One day, when I'm really bored, I'll go count the lines of dialogue between Harry and Hermione (as friends) and the dialogue between Harry and Ginny (soul mates) and I will humbly eat my computer if Ginny and Harry spoke even half as much as Harry and Hermione.

How can Jo expect us to accept that it was real love? It was animal, and she couldn't have made it more clear with that chest creature. I didn't like Harry when he was on his flights of fancy about Ginny professing her undying love over his unconscious form or something. That was just silly, sorry.



And her family, yes. The warmest love came from Mrs. Weasley and Ron, and Harry spoke more with the twins than with Ginny. Hermione is a big part of his life (even as a friend), and Harry wanted to spend his last golden days with her and Ron. Sure, as friends, but that is warm love. He didn't discard Ron and Hermione. He wanted them with him in his darkest hour. They are his family. His reality. After ditching Ginny, he doesn't yearn for her. He wants his friends.

You say Ginny is his real love, but that she's an escape. I can't see the two co-existing. Harry/Ginny arguments are always about how they are equal, and how they are real mates. They both 'understand' Quidditch and they have a similar sense of humour, but this escape-Ginny you talk about sounds more like a prize than a soul mate. If they were soul mates, they'd stick together above anything else. I hate the idea that he metaphorically leaves Ginny at home while he goes to fight dragons, and that she'll wait for him until he returns from his conquests. In the twenty-first century, that just really doesn't go down.

It doesn't seem to be in accordance with Jo's insistence on making her a popular, sporty, strong, powerful sort of character. Again, she's trying to do two things at once and failing. I'm confused - is Ginny his friend, soul mate, equal - or is she his escape from reality, his prize?

If the former, why isn't she right there with him? How can they be ok with being separated in their darkest hour? If the latter, why the attempt to make her 'worthy' of him by suddenly characterising (or trying to characterise) her as a strong and popular equal?

Are the ships an important part of the characters' emotional journeys, or are they a nice and entertaining sub-plot? If the former, why must we be satisfied with having to trace back on it? Why are there clues missing? If the latter, why is the fact that he experienced no warm love even brought up as part of the reason that he should have a girlfriend. We all agree that his difficult childhood had a huge impact on him, and if his relationship with Ginny makes up for that, how can shipping not be important?

Nope, I enjoy reading about Ron and Hermione, but Harry/Ginny just gets stuck in my throat. Harry shouldn't have a girlfriend, and I'm growing more and more convinced of that.

It is written all over the canon cleverly by Jo Rowling. This is her definition of "love", I am not saying that I completely agree with her. See how she strategically places her proofs.
1. Who can deny that Ginny is "very taken with Harry"?
Book after books, we were told the fact. This is delivered as a subliminal message. The author used the people around Ginny to label it as "crush", but the author keeps indicating it's not. This feeling is reported to be stronger every year, and the longing for Harry cannot be replaced by any boys.
2. Harry find a great friendship in Ron, whereas Ron and Ginny are so close together (in age and wits).
Don't know why Jo chose to follow "boy falling for his best friend's sister", but the general view is: one find likeable attitudes in his/her best friend also in the sibling. Being together with the sibling is to get the same friendly feeling, but now can go deeper into romance.
Harry sees Ron in Ginny. He laughed hard at her jokes, similar to the way he does at Ron's.
3. Harry loves the Burrow and attached to the parts of it.
As Jo finally opens her card in HBP, one attractive factor at the Burrow is Ginny. He enjoys the family life and the certain presence of Ginny (she has always to go back to her parents during holidays). According to Jo, boys are slow to understand romance, but they can understand joy.
4. The hero-saving event in the Chamber of Secrets. This is so obviously fairy-tale story of hero saving his girl from the mighty evil. Not for friendship but for romance. Notice the parallel between book 2 with book 6 (the 2nd book from the end). The kiss that usually accompanies the rescue is postponed due to the age of the characters, but it's there according to the well-known script. Casually the rescue is mentioned in Book 3 and 5.

Jo Rowling definitely has her own definition of "real love". She didn't let her main characters shared their first kiss with the right person. Jo also has low respect to words like "I love you". She may still hold the true meaning of it, but uses it in a light way. The actions speak louder volume. Throughout the series, we cannot get fair share of words. Many dialogues have not been recorded because of Harry's absence or negligence or because it's deemed not important for the main storyline. How many jokes did Harry share with Ron? If we put a detail list, we won't be anywhere near the author's claim that they share a lot with each other.

Some people use the amount of spoken words to measure the depth of relationship, but the author apparently doesn't do the same. Not only Ginny was quiet in Harry's presence, but actually Harry was also often silent in Ginny's presence. Harry couldn't say a thing to respond to Draco's teasing of "girlfriend" in book 2. At least Ginny said "Hello" to him, but Harry didn't say anything back in book 3. He couldn't even bring himself to ask Ginny to leave, as he was about to tell Ron and Hermione that Sirius came to kill him, and Ron had to do the harsh act in Book 3. Harry couldn't say a thing when Ron arranged him to go with Ginny (but Ginny already accepted Neville's invitation) in Book 4. The recorded words of Ginny in Book 5 mostly to show the readers that Ginny can verbally handle Harry while the others cannot. Now after the kissing, the author omitted the subsequent dialogues with a tiny note that they might talk about Quidditch if they still have time to do so. A lot to talk about, but nothing was written.
How interesting would those dialouges be? For a number of readers, beautiful flowery romantic long dialogues would be a distraction from the main storyline. The author may have used this as an excuse not to write the conversations. Only the results count. At the end, Harry felt the great comfort, sunshine, other-person's-life, deep mutual concerted understanding with Ginny. This is a basic for long-lasting relationship!

A soul-mate and an escape do co-exist in one person. Coming out of the problematic world of school or work, one comes home to enjoy a precious short time with one's beloved, a little paradise. It will be insane to talk about work 24h. Most of the time, we share memorable moments with our romantic partners, get-away from our busy world. Harry and Ginny talk about many sweet things, and surely not much about "work" (related to Voldemort). For Harry, it's an important moment of recharging his soul.
Ginny is also set to be a reward. She possesses a bunch of attributes that any girl/witch would die to get even one of them. This is again based on the best-selling story of fairy tale. How many will read a story that the valiant hero killed the fierce giant dragon to marry an ugly, despicable girl? The best-selling story ends as the hero weds the beautiful, lovely, admirable princess. Ginny is clearly prepared for Harry after he finishes his task. Not out-of-bound, because Harry Potter IS a fairy tale (a bit inaccurate, since there are elves, not fairies).

Warning: H/Hr Shipper. Militant and Delusional.

...

I'm terribly sorry, but I still don't see where you're getting some things there, muggleview... But before I move onto that, I have a couple of things I want to mention to everybody. After I read HBP, but before I saw The Interview, I had a serious case going for H/Hr. This is actually one of my theories: in Book 1, Harry met Hermione. CoS, he met Ginny (yes, I know he met her in SS/PS twice for about a minute each. THis book was where he actually met her). PoA, he met Cho. Skip over GoF for a minute. OotP, he went out with Cho. HBP, he went with Ginny. And I seriously thought that with DH would come a H/Hr pairing. This was all before I read the Interview, mind you. That was not my only reason for shipping Harmony, of course, but still an interesting theory. Secondly, the book is not told from Harry's point of view. It is third person limited. THat uses a narrator to portray the maincharacter's thoughts to the readers. Whatever we see from the narration is not nessesarily (?) what Harry is thinking.

Ok, now on with my first post with the Dueling Club:
Yes, we acknowledge the fact that Ginny has always had a crush on Harry. But where does JKR say that what Ginny has for Harry is more than a crush? Book, chapter, page, and line would be appreciated, please. And also, since Ginny seemed to get over her crush in her fourth year (the time at which she started to date other boys), we can't really say that that her longing can't be replaced by other boys because she hasn't really had her crush while dating other people...

Something I've been wondering about: many non H/Hr shippers use the fact that Harry and Hermione are too much like siblings to be in a relationship. But how many people her can honestly say that they get along that well with their siblings? I would say that Ron and Hermione's bickering make them much like siblings... Anyway, Harry has almost been "adopted" by the Weasley's, and Mrs. Weasley even says that he is almost like one of her sons... Wouldn't that make Harry and Ginny much like siblings, too? Back to your statement, specifically where is it mentioned that Ginny was the reason Harry likes the Burrow so much?

Wait, so you're saying that Harry saved Ginny not because she was Ron't friend, but because he loved her? So if he didn't love her, he wouldn't have rescued her? Even Riddle makes the comment that Harry can't resist saving people.

Have you considered the fact that Harry didn't respond to Draco's teasing because he was being teased rather than because it was about Ginny being his girlfriend? (I'm not sure if I worded that correctly...) And in GoF when Harry never said anything to Ginny: he just got turned down by a girl he has a big crush on, do you really think he was in the mood to say much, especially to Ginny, whom he knows has a cruch on him? And how does Ginny calm Harry down in OotP? If I recall, Hermione was the one to calm Harry down 90% of the time...

Ironically, there was an article in my school newspaper a couple of months ago discussing if it is possible to be chivalrous to a woman and for them still to be independant. For example, a chivalrous guy would pay, yet an independant woman would not want to have someone pay for her. I don't know if that came out right, or if I'm just sounding sexist... Well, that article sounds like what I thought while contemplating these statements: how can Ginny be a reward for Harry, yet still be a soulmate. The reward thing sounds like the Middle Ages where killing a "dragon" would earn you the right to marry the King's daughter. The story is not about romance, so it wouldn't/shouldn't matter if whomever Harry comes home to is ugly. But then again, true love isn't based on appearances, so why would it matter if Ginny was beautiful or not? The fact that in HBP, she is portrayed that way just reminds me of the stereotypical Hollywood romances where only the beautiful characters find their true love... If Ginny is Harry's soulmate, then why doesn't she stick with Harry? A soulmate would stick with their "other half" to the end, yet Ginny just gives Harry up so he can fight Voldemort, showing that she still has a crush on The-Boy-Who-Lived. If she was his soulmate, she would have refused to let him go... A soulmate should be the most important person in your life. Yet Ron and Hermione are the ones to go with Harry on the Horcrux Hunt, not Ginny. This kind of shows that Ron and Hermione are more important to him than Ginny is, or that Harry is more important to Ron and Hermione than he is to Ginny. And the idea of her being a reward for him for "killing the dragon" makes it seem as if he is higher up than her, undermining the whole soulmate thing. Also, if Ginny was so important to Harry, why does she not know of the prophecy or of what Harry is planning to do over the next year? This once again shows that Harry places Ron and Hermione before Ginny, and they regard him higher than Ginny regards him.

On a side note: please realize that in DH, they have to find and destroy all the rest of the Horcruxes and then kill Voldemort. There will not be much time for ANY romances in that book, unless you include Harry's love being "the power he knows not". So if Harry doesn't use romantic love for somebody to kill Voldemort, then there really won't be much room for any other side romance...

Earendil_Mithrandir (I hope I didn't upset too many people... )

P.S.- As I see it, JKR didn't say that it will be Hr/R in DH. What I remember her saying is that "yes, we know that now it is Ron and Hermione" or something to that affect. That doesn't really mean that it will be Hr/R, but that it is now. I'm not using this to say that it will be H/Hr in DH, but that JKR's interviews can be "translated" into slightly different meanings. And even though it may or may not play an important role in DH, shipping is still a major part of HPFandom. JKR has kept just about all secrets about the upcoming book to herself. Is it really like her to just give away a part of the book like that? I use that as my base for saying that I believe that there is more to The Interview than meets the eye...

P.P.S.- I've accepted those ships portrayed in HBP; I'm not upset about it. I just feel it wasn't the right choice for JKR. It really was just a fool's hope I held, just trying to convince myself something; of what, I don't know...

Warning... Soon to be a former Harry Potter shipper, militant and delusional (after book 7 is out, read out, and worked out)
Hard to believe that after less than 100 days, the whole shipping debate will come to an end.
Those whose ships sail will feel relieved, but then for what? The fictional pairs may or may not enjoy the life after Book 7. Those whose ships fail will feel "whatever", and find another literature to debate on. At the end, we are all a bunch of Harry Potter fanatics who enjoy the books and all the discussions.

Earendil_Mithrandir, nice to hear from you again. Shall we take a look at your points?


Actually, Harry saw Ginny first, and then got hooked with her family. Ginny was the first girl Harry knew by name.
On the other hand, Hermione saw Ron first, before greeting Harry after hearing his name.

So the theory should go:
1. Book 1: Harry met Ginny
2. Book 2: Harry saved Ginny
3. Book 3: Harry ignored Ginny, started to long for Cho
4. Book 4: Harry wanted Cho
5. Book 5: Harry broke up with Cho, started to know Ginny
6. Book 6: Harry dated Ginny
7. Book 7: Harry and Ginny forever


At the end of HBP, Ginny admitted she never really gave up on Harry.
A feeling lasted so long, and the author had to remind the readers book after book that the feeling exists, is not meant for a temporary crush. It's a growing connection between 2 hearts.


In HBP: Under influence of Amortensia, Harry smelled something reminding him from "the Burrow". Then it dawned to him that Ginny was the source of the smell.
By simplification: Ginny was the source of the smell that reminds Harry about the Burrow as one of things he loves so much. Ginny was the source of the things Harry loves so much. Ginny was the thing Harry loves so much.


You know I never said that, don't you?
I point out to the stage the author establish for the two characters. Why was Ginny the one brought down to the chamber? Why was Harry the one to save her? That's pre-arranged by the author. It's meant to be Harry and Ginny.


We won't need to pay attention on that silly remarks if not for GOF. In GOF Harry adamantly denied Hermione as his girlfriend, but never said negative thing about Ginny in the whole series.
Book 2: Harry was teased that Ginny was his girlfriend.
Book 6: Harry took action to make Ginny his girlfriend.


The morale of the middle-ages story: a man has to prove worthy for his wife.
Reward here means the lady will readily accept the man who proves his bravery in saving her life. Believe it or not, my girl accepted me only after I proved myself worthy for her.
I am not a killing-dragon prince, but she said I'm her prince-charming.


The author wants Harry to marry "the prettiest of all". It's a fairy tale anyway.
Why take it so hard?


In all fairy tales, I never read the princess helped the prince to kill the dragon.
The prince has to do it alone, then he will pick up the princess.
Jo is really strict with her fairy tale script.


We haven't told the answer yet, so I will speculate:
Ginny was never told about Harry being targeted by Sirius. Harry specifically wanted Ginny to go away before he told Ron and Hermione about this (Book 3).
Ginny was never told about the prophecy in which it's possible that both Harry and Voldemort had to die together to fulfill it (one cannot live when the other survive) (Book 5)
My opinion is: Harry didn't want Ginny to worry too much about him.


Only after everything is set, then she confirmed it.
Now it is a point of no return. Harry couldn't just go to Hermione and said "I love you", because it will certainly ruin his relationship with Ron (which Harry valued above Hermione) and the Burrows and especially Ginny whom he claimed to be the last person he wanted to see dead.
Hermione couldn't just go to Harry to say "I love you, Harry", because it will certainly ruin her relationship with Ron (for whom she was madly jealous) and the Burrows and especially Ginny who is her only and closest friend.
Besides, Harry and Hermione don't love each other that way (I mean, romantically).

WHat do you mean "former"? Just because my ships didn't sail doesn't mean that I won't still be a fan of the books!

That's pretty much the attitude of most in the H/Hr thread: if we can't have canon, we'll have fanfiction!

Wait, have we met before??

Yes, Harry "met" Ginny first, but he didn't talk tp her and I don't believe he ever learned her name until he was on the trian and listening to the Weasleys. Hermione was the first one he actually talked to and got to know well. And the Hermione and Ron part doesn't work well; I only came up with my theory because the first three books would have mirrored the last three books (1-7, 2-6, 3-5). And the same goes for the Harry/Ginny theory of yours: it doesn't mirror.

True, she never really gave up on him, but she did learn to move on after her fourth year.
Just because a crush lasted so long and is so often referred to doesn't mean it is anything more than a crush. Harry's crush on Cho lasted three years. Ginny's crush on Harry lasted for four years until she learned to move on. Not much longer.

When I asked for examples, I should had specified examples from the first five books. I was trying to find out what makes you believe that H/G was heavily foreshadowed.
What actually happened was that Harry smelled something that he remembered smelling at the Burrow, not something that reminded him of the Burrow itself. Harry never really spent much time with Ginny outside of the Burrow until HBP, so it is natural that when he is reminded of Ginny's smell, he would remember the Burrow because that was the only place he would have smelled it before.

Yeah, I'm sorry. I was too worked up by that time...
I could say the same in the DoM mysteries scene where Hermione was struck by that curse. WHy would JKR write Hermione complimenting Harry but getting cursed a second later, then Harry having "his heart stop" and race to Hermione's side? By applying your philosophy, Harry and Hermione are meant to be together, because Harry went to save her. (You see how I applied that to something you don't like. But the thing is, those two parts are quite similar in those respects, so what applies to one also can apply to the other. But I'm not saying my scene advocates H/Hr, I'm just using that to prove a point.). Harry saves people. That's how he is. It doesn't mean that he is in love with every person he saves, it's just Harry being Harry.

True, you've got a very good point with that. Let me think for a minute. ... ... ........ .................... Ok, I think I've got something: you know when a person is trying to guess something about you that you really don't want them to find out? Have you ever found that the closer the person is to the mark, the stronger you react and deny it? I'm not saying that Harry secretly likes Hermione, but there could be other scenarios that would equally justify Harry not denying that Ginny was his girlfriend and still not liking her.

Where are there any elements of fairy tales in HP, besides the mystical creatures? Fairy tales aren't quite as dark as HP and usually involve the Hero completing a single or a short set of tasks. Harry has a new task each book, and in the end he has to eithe rmurder or be murdered. Also in fairy tales, the Hero sets out to accomplish his tasks to "win" something as a prize, while Harry is setting forth in oder to rid the world of Voldemort (That is like a conversation that Bilbo and Frodo have in the Lord of the Rings about Bilbo's adventure for treasure (in the Hobbit) in contrast to Frodo's adventure to rid the world of evil.) Yes, Harry may "win" Ginny after he defeats Voldemort, but that is not the reason he set out, and if it is, that would be rather selfish... In fairy tales, the Hero usually voluntarily goes forth, while Harry is more forced into it. So in summary, HP is not a fairy tale. I hope this isn't too personal of a question for you to answer, but what did you do to prove yourself?

Once again, how is Harry Potter a fairy tale?

But Harry obviously doesn't care if Hermione worries about him too much. I would even say Hemrione had reacted more than Ginny would if/when Harry tells her (but we never got to see the whole reaction from Hermione due to the telescope). What girl would be content that another girl knows something so important to her boyfriend and gets to go on an adventure with him? That Harry values Hermione more than Ginny?

Yes, but even after HBP, Hermione and Ron haven't declared their "love" yet. If we ignore H/G for a moment, then Hr/R and H/Hr were both possibilities. It was only the Interview that confirmed, it not HBP itself. It was also quite risky for Harry to kiss Ginny in front of the whole Common Room; Ron could have been just as mad at him as he could be if Harry takes Hermione. Ron was shown to be quite protective of Ginny, so Harry might have crossed a line with Ginny, but Ron let it go. But imagine if Harry and Hermione were in love for a moment: they would value each other before their best friends. I wouldn't be surprised if there will be no romance at all in DH (at least until Voldemort is dead) because it would all just interfere with the Horcrux hunt.


I know you are all going to want to kill me for this, but I have an interesting theory, and I'm likely to be the only one in this thread who will support it.
In all of the books in the series, we are introduced with an object or person very early on just in passing that happens to have a very big impact on the outcome of the book.
Book 1: The little package from Vault 713.
Book 2: Gilderoy Lockheart was mentioned by Mrs. Weasley when she was talking about degnoming the garden.
Book 3: The escaped prisoner on the news at the Dursley's turns out to be Harry's godfather, Sirius Black.
Book 4: The other wizarding schools Beaubatons and Durmstrang.
Book 5: Umbridge at Harry's disciplinary hearing.
There are also several others for each book, but I've only mentioned one each. JKR wanted us to be familiar with these people/objects when they appear, so she briefly mentions it. My theory is that in HBP, Amortentia was used. It was mentioned in the first Potions lesson, and the connection I am guessing is that Ginny uses it (Don't KILL me!! *Hides behind the computer*). Love Potions were mentioned a lot in this book (more so than in any other book): Voldemort's mother and Ron/Romilda Vane being two examples. Draco was able to steal from the vat of Polyjuice, so why couldn't Ginny steal Amortentia? This would explain the sudden and unexplained monster, the fact that Harry was never attracted to Ginny befor HBP, Ginny's lack of interest of the funeral (she could have stopped giving it to Harry as Voldemort's mother did to Tom Riddle), and several other irregularities. Please don't kill me. I know you don't like my theory, but just explain to me why it can't be possible rather than just yelling at me.

Earendil_Mithrandir

Actually, I am referring to myself. Soon I will be a former Harry Potter shipper, insignificant anymore with whom Harry will end up with, because with Book 7 is out, there will be no more mystery, no more question, no more prediction.

Again, I am talking about my own feeling. I will miss the debate, regardless I guess correctly or not. Well, life goes on.

I don't think we ever meet, but I remember discussing with you in the past. Your name is unique enough to be forgotten.

Harry knew Ginny's name even before entering Platform 9-3/4. Since then, Harry was all ears to this girl's words, ignoring anybody else at the station, but her family.

I know the mirror effect. I believe Jo uses this, because it fits with Harry/Ginny. By the way, I don't start the theory. Many have stated that, I don't even know who started it.
I disagree that Hermione and Ron don't work well. They seem to be one book less towards a real romance. But that's my opinion, of course.
Hermione might be the first girl Harry talked to, but Harry was not the first boy Hermione talked to and knew well.

The books never stated that Ginny has crush on Harry. Since it's not in the canon, it's a reader's opinion. The author stated that Ginny will be paired with Harry. I believe her.

Book 2.

We know now that Harry likes Ginny, so we also know Harry is true with his denial about Hermione being his girlfriend, and is true that he didn't deny Ginny as his girlfriend.

To prove myself? I'm not sure what to prove myself. I'm also not sure about your definition of fairy tales. Have you known that many of Grimm's fairy tales are darker than HP? Of course not the watered down Disney version. The original ones (the stepmother was forced to dance with burning metal shoes to her death). H.C. Andersen's original was not less dark, either. And the hero voluntarily goes forth? I beg to differ. Frodo (that you mentioned) was not voluntarily do what he had to do. Nor did Aragon.

I copied from Wikipedia:
A fairy tale is a story featuring folkloric characters such as fairies, goblins, elves, trolls, giants, and talking animals, and usually enchantments.

That's exactly why we think Harry didn't treat Hermione as his girlfriend. You got the point there.

Ginny didn't know about those secrets, so that wouldn't bother her. Ginny knew that Hermione, her best friend and her sister-in-law-to-be, was together with Ron, her brother, to help Harry, her boyfriend. Why should she feel discontent?
Harry definitely values Hermione very high, but in term of safety, Harry values Ginny's safety more than Hermione's. He would rather Ginny stay out of danger, whereas he doesn't mind Hermione risking her life for Harry, although Harry knows that he had to do the task alone.

I don't think anyone wants to kill you. Besides, in less than 100 days, you will find yourself whether it's true or not. The theory was discussed to the detail a while ago. You are right that very few still support the theory among H/Hr shippers. Interesting theory, I say.
Some of the contradictions:
- Harry got Amortensia's influence the first time together with many, including Hermione, in the classroom. We noticed that Harry has none reminding him of Hermione, as we know all what he smelled. So there's no need to poison Harry with Amortensia just to make him like Ginny, because he already does.
- In case you forget, Amortensia cannot make someone to love other whom one never likes. Amortensia only strengthens the feeling. There are other love potions which can force someone to fall in love with a particular one, like what Riddle's Mom used, or what Romilda used. The Twins sold that kind of Love Potion in their shop, but not Amortensia.

The conclusion is: Ginny cannot possibly use Amortensia to make Harry likes her. Harry has to like her first before the effect can happen.
Sorry, but the theory just doesn't work.

Cheers,
Muggy

Are we going to be the only two debating here?

Oh, ok... Why are calling yourself militant and delusional? Isn't that what Emerson called H/Hr shippers?

Well, that's what I meant by "met", though. But where have we debated before, since that was my first Duelling Club post? Actually, now that I think about it, I kinda remember the name 'muggleview' from some debate in the past...

Well, the Weasleys were the first wizarding family Harry met. I think he can be excused for not paying attention to other families, and not attribute this to his liking to Ginny. Still, Hermione was the first one he got to know well. At Platform 9 3/4, Harry only knew Ginny's name, nothing else. As far as I remember, Harry never spoke directly to her.

Who did Hermione meet first? Neville? Yeah, I can see that point... But Hermione never got to know anybody well enough to be friends with them until the Troll Incident. And as far as I know, neither Hermione nor Ron have formed mirrors, so this can't apply to them.

No, it may not have been said it was a crush, but if you like a person before you even directly talk to them, what is it really likely to be? Certainly not "true love", because she doesn't even know Harry. All she has at that point was his looks and what she read about him. By the way: JKR said that she had planned for Harrry and Ginny to get together and then split up.

On your last post, you mentioned that you did something to prove yourself. Oh well... I haven't actually read Grimm's books, though. Yes, I see that there are many fairy tales darker than HP, and I withdraw my point. But Lord of the Rings is not quite a fairy tale. It is a fantasy, epic quest, or whatever else to that effect. And although there really was no other choice, Frodo did volunteer: at the Counsel of Elrond, when they were debatin gover who would take the Ring, Frodo steps forward and says "I will take It" (Well, that's what he says in the movie, I can't remember what he said in the book.). Yes, there wasn't much other choice, but Frodo had the chance to back down. Funny how the debate has shifted from how Ginny was the reward for Harry like in fairy tales to whether or not Frodo volunteered...

Although I find that Wikipedia is a very reliable source for events and items of similar nature, in definitions Wikipedia is a bit shaky, most likely because definitions are slightly opinioned, and Wikipedia is an open encyclopedia. That is not all a fairy tale has to have, though. But that, once again, is more of an opinion...

Ginny knows something is happening, but not what. For example, at the funeral, she mentioned that Harry was going off to fight Voldemort.

Slughorn's definition of the effects of Amortentia: it "causes a powerful infatuation or obsession." He doesn't mention anything about needing to already like the person for it to affect them. No, it cannot make someone love someone else, but we never were told directly that Harry loves Ginny, only our opinions, which are unsurprisingly varied. I'm not saying that Ginny bought it from her brothers' shop, either. I believe that she had just taken it from the dungeon, just as Malfoy apparently did with the Polyjuice.

Earendil_Mithrandir

P.S.- I am surprised nobody wants to kill me! All of the other H/Hr shippers at my school certainly did when I propsed this to them...

I suppose I will be the one to come in here and stir the waters by pretending to be on one side but then siding with another just to fit my own personal views...what can I say? I'm a universalist when it comes to shipping.

If you don't mind, I would like to try and touch on a few things....

For one thing, it is never stated in the books or in any interviews that Harry and Ginny are in love with each other. They have been described as "ideal" for each other, but that does not make them lovers.

I know you have both talked about this in later posts, but I thought I'd just grab a general quote. Amortentia will give you the three smells of the things you enjoy most. Pure speculation from me, but I'd assume the things you enjoy most at the time. If Harry would have smelled the Amortentia a year earlier, he probably would have smelled...Cho or something. I do not believe that Amortentia can give you a scent of the things you want most 'in the future' because we aren't there yet. If it did, heck, Harry might have smelled radishes.

Now, the flowery smell from the Burrow. You both have touched on that somewhere that what actually happened was that Harry smelled something that he remembered smelling at the Burrow, not something that reminded him of the Burrow itself. (um, that was a quote I agree with.) Harry only remembered it from the Burrow because that was the first place he could associate it with. As the Amortentia was at the beginning of the school year, Harry had not spent a lot of time with or near Ginny, therefore he did not know the exact thing it was from. The flowery scent represented Ginny. However, if you can recall, the Burrow was in fact on of the other scents he smelled most likely from the treacle tart that Mrs. Weasley makes. Harry likes the Burrow because it is the only place he feels safe. It is home to the only family he has ever known. Ron's parents took him in as their own, and that's why he likes it so much. Because it is a home to him. Not because of Ginny.

muggs--there's no sense on quitting your shipping just because the book is out. People are still going to disagree with how literature is written, so there's always the debate in that.

--I believe Ginny was the first girl Harry knew by name only because Mrs. Weasley yelled at her to stop pointing.

In my opinion, as a person just above Ginny's age, I would call going out with two other boys giving up. Yes, she is allowed to still like Harry while going out with the others--there's no rule against it and as long as she's not being unfaithful she's not doing any harm to anyone but herself. If she still liked Harry enough to be distracted by him in other relationships, she did still genuinely like him, but she did give up on him.

Ginny can be important to Harry but not be important enough to get this kind of information. There are even things that Harry doesn't tell Ron and Hermione. The reason that he does is because they are in the same year and they spend every waking moment together. They know each other pretty well and once you're really good friends with someone you know when they're down or happy or whatever. The thing with Ron and Hermione is they know how to ask the right questions. And by talking they gain each others trust. I don't think Harry and Ginny have been doing the same sort of talking, and that's why she doesn't know. It's a different kind of relationship. Plus, this information isn't crucial to her survival. Not yet anyway.

--Now, I'm not even going to bother with the fairy tale debate or the interviews. I take what Jo says and I trust her. I don't twist her words to make things how I want them because I honestly don't think there's much buried in what she said in that interview anyway. It was all rather blunt to me. And the fairy tale thing...well, let's just say the seventh book isn't going to end with a happily ever after.

The love potion theory could always slip in there somehow...I'm definitely not saying it's impossible. I'd say it's more improbable. Though Ginny isn't as much of a softie as Hermione is, she's not a rock. Ginny wouldn't be so desperate to trick Harry in to loving her. I have the feeling she's one to see Harry as more of a goal. Perhaps why their relationship didn't go quite as planned...

This is one of those times where a little inference is the best thing. Earendil_Mithrandir (I'm sorry, I don't know your real name...) stated that it's unlikely that it wasn't a crush. I agree with that. Love is not something achieved through glances and buttered elbows--I don't care what anyone says. Ginny had a crush on Harry through the first five books-at least. And a crush is a crush because it "crushes" you to watch your 'crush' crush on someone else. That's why Ginny was crushed when Harry was crushing on Cho. But Ginny never made a move. Darn.

And also, 'paired together' does not mean betrothed or madly in love or anything else. It means paired. Just as Harry was paired with Cho, Ginny with Dean, Ron with Lavender, Hermione with Krum....

--My guess is you know each other from reading posts in the Ships section. I've read just about every post in that place and even though I don't talk to everyone I know a Shipper when I see one.

Ok...I think that's all. Sorry for the monster post. But you wanted a third Dueller.

Now that's one unpalatable and indigestible idea. Harry caring more for Ginny's safety than Hermione is highly improbable. He cares for the safety of all his friends. His break up with Ginny, one might argue was imply because he did not have much faith in Ginny's abilities as compared to those of Hermione and Ron and that's one of the big reasons why he did not inform her of horcruxes, nor was he advised by Dumbledore to do so. Also he knew that Hermione and Ron were much more devoted to him than Ginny and thus, it would be best not to bring Ginny along. I am sure you would not agree with me, but then this is how one may interpret events in Harry Potter series. I am not saying this is entirely accurate, but equally probable as the hunch that Harry cares more for Ginny than Ron and Hermione.



Well then you could explain what happened in the case of Merope Gaunt and Tom Riddle. Apparently Dumbledore and Harry both agreed that Merope was able to ensnare Tom Riddle by using a love potion, ensuring that not only did she marry him but also have his child. When he stopped getting the potion, he simply abandoned her. there was no love there, but something created with amorentia. So amorentia works even if there's nothing to work with..

Another example is that of Romilda Vane and Ron. Ron ate the chocolate cauldrons meant for Harry and he was absolutely infatuated with Romilda. No love there, but amorentia created a delusion of love. So I would say that your theory has plenty of loopholes there.

But I admit that I am not too convinced that Ginny did employ a love potion to attract Harry's attention. Doesn't seem to be any evidence to that effect. Amorentia seems to have a delayed effect and Harry never showed anything like Ron did, though it may also be due to his stronger will power. But Ginny feeding Amorentia to Harry- I would need a lot more evidence to be convinced on that even though given the shallowness of their relationship, I can see why people gravitate towards that idea

Not anymore. Welcome, Just_the_Droobles and Mayfair.
The last time I check, Emerson didn't copyright the use of English word "delusional" only for H/Hr shippers. I believe I have the right to use the word for myself, as any person can use it for other purposes. Why should I be bothered to discuss about fictional characters while I could have to discuss something real, if I'm not delusional?
Good. So we are both HP fans, only in certain cases we disagree on what Jo Rowling intends to write.

It's a different pattern. Mirror is not the only pattern Jo Rowling uses.
Book 1: hate-love
Book 2: Hermione in grave danger
Book 3: Ron in grave danger
Book 4: hate-love
Book 5: Hermione in grave danger
Book 6: Ron in grave danger
Book 7: hate- forever love (prediction)
I don't think Jo mentioned anything about "true love" at this point. What we have seen is the process towards that. There is a phenomenon called "love at first sight", I witnessed this three times in real life and the relationships are still going strong. People do fall in love with another just by sight, and they didn't want to confess they fell for it until after they know the other well-enough. Surely that can happen.
Jo indeed stressed to us that she had planned Harry and Ginny to get together and then split up, but she redundantly listed the reason for split up: all points to Ginny's safety. (what do you think if it was you in the grave, Voldemort may target Ginny, I cannot drag you). All the notions about Harry didn't feel Ginny worthy to accompany him are unfounded and pure speculation, contrary to what the books stated.
Any princes who slayed the dragon would say they volunteered, and that's because the authors put them in the situation that there really was no other choice, as you stated. To put in concise word: he was meant to do it.
She knew this since book 2. Remember her valentine's to Harry?
Jo never uses the word "love" seriously. Ron said "I love you" to Hermione not in serious way. Using your standard, then Arthur never loves Molly, Ron never loves Hermione, Hermione never loves Ron, Ginny never loves Harry, Tonks never loves Lupin, etc. because we were never told directly that one loves the other. Each of us is a unique person, so we all have varied opinions.
Perhaps, non-H/Hr shippers prefer more peaceful discussion?
Harry had often smelled it but never really pinpoint the source until the smell was enhanced by Amortensia. Girls do have distinctive smell and flowery is just a way to describe it. The scientist calls the source of it 'pheromones'.
Hence, "crush" is readers' opinion, right? Can a "crush" evolve to be a long-lasting relationship? I have seen in real life that a few can.

It's okay to state an argument, but there's no indication Harry broke up with Ginny because he didn't have much faith in Ginny's abilities. All we know, Harry positioned Ginny as high as Dumbledore and Sirius for the important persons in his life. Did Harry have much faith in Sirius, because he didn't explain everything he shared with Ron and Hermione to Sirius? Harry also hid something from Dumbledore? or even Ron and Hermione? Faith doesn't have anything to do with breakup. Safety does.
You may confuse "Love Potion" and "Amortensia". Amortensia is only one of the love potions. The one used by Romilda or Merope is not Amortensia, and not even the same. There are many types of love potions, as the books hinted.
Cheers,
Muggy

Same rules apply in here. Please be careful of what and whom you are referring to.

The only problem I see with the Amortentia/love potion theory is the reactions of Harry. With Ron and Romilda, Ron's reactions were instant and extreme. He was loopy for her and defended her at every stance. He wanted to find her and be around her and was easily tricked by Harry to do things just to see her. Harry's reactions toward Ginny were not even close to being that extreme and Harry wasn't nearly as vocal and upfront about his feelings for Ginny. So...I guess Ginny wasn't using that type of love potion.

Also, with Merope and Tom, the love was more relaxed, and Tom was "in love" with her. It didn't seem as extreme as Ron and Romilda's, but I've got a blurry memory about that and surely Merope would have been using something more advanced than Romilda. Also, once Merope stopped the love potion, whichever one it may be, the effects were seen immediately. Tom dropped Merope like a rock without any second thoughts. I think if Harry would have been under the influence of a potion like this one he would have thrown Ginny out a lot more unceremoniously. The love potion theory still has too many loop holes.

I think that's a little far out. I don't really know where the hate-love stuff is coming from... perhaps you could tell me what's happening in those books to get that label? Also, in book 2, it was Ginny and Hermione in danger. In book three, Ron was never in danger for a long period of time. If anyone was in danger it would have been Harry or Sirius. In book 5, I think it was very centralized that Harry believed Sirius was the one in danger. Perhaps my memory is failing me again, but I can't recall when Hermione was in any immediate danger. Huge danger. There were a lot of people in danger in book 6. Granted, Ron's scare was pretty nasty. However, Ron's nearly gotten wiped out in every book if you think about it. I don't think this is a good enough pattern to base any ship.

Actually, since I know the poem by heart, there is no evidence in that poem that she knew anything more than the rest of the public. "The hero who conquered the Dark Lord" is in reference to his first defeat as a child. Everyone knew that. It didn't say "he who would be fighting every year and almost defeating the Dark Lord."

The flowery smell was Ginny's perfume. Pheromones cannot be outright detected. If a male were to walk by me and I was attracted to him, I wouldn't say "Gee his pheromones smell good." Pheromones are simply a chemical signal that sends messages. They don't work llike Axe. Yes, everyone has their own pheromones and that is one of the factors that attracts, but the flowery scent was not a pheromone.

No, crush is a pretty accurate inference. Ron says it somewhere (I'm pretty sure) that Ginny fancies Harry. Girls don't talk about one boy for an entire summer for the fun of it. And yes, they can develop, and they did. But before Harry and Ginny started spending time together, it was only a crush. After that, they developed more real feelings. "Deep like" I call it.

You can just call me Numenor, one of my many online aliases, but by far the shortest.

Umm, I'm just going to say that I agree with most of your comments instead of listing them individually.

Exactly: not impossible, just improbable. True, she isn't a rock, which is why I'm kinda expanding th etheory to include other potions, such as Felix Felicius and Love Potions from Fred and George's shop.

And to your second post, JTD (you don't mind that, do you?):

Slughorn says that Love Potions get stronger with age. That Potion had been in there for a while, so a regular Potion might not have as strong effects. Or, since it was from Fred and George's shop, it wouldn't put it past them to put something in there that would make whoever drank it make a fool of themselves or something.

Well, Tom wasn't "in love" with her (Slughorn says that it is impossible to create Love with a Love Potion). Tom may have dropped Merope because she wasn't someone he wanted to be seen with; as soon as she stopped the Potion, he realized that he was being mocked at for being with her, and left immediately. In Harry's case, Ginny isn't an unattractive person, so when Harry realized it, he wasn't so pressured to end it with her. Another thing might be that the further the Love Potion brings you (and the strength of the Potion), the further you have to "fall" back to how your feeling were for that person before you started with the Love Potion (am I making any sense at all?). For example, since Merope used Love Potions for a long time with Tom Riddle, he was very deeply into it. He was "attracted" (in place of "loved") to her much more so than before she gave him the Potion, so that when she stopped he "fell" much farther down to the point where he wasn't "attracted" to her.


Yeah, I really don't think that Harry cares more for Ginny than he does for Ron or Hermione, either...

Exactly: one doesn't need to like a person already for a Love Potion, or Amortentia, to take effect. Since Love Potions can't replicate true love, all it could do is make you like a person, but according to you, muggleview, you need to like then already, making the Potion redundant. But I don't think that Merope used Amortentia, but they never said.


No of course he doesn't, but those are the same words he used to generally describe H/Hr shippers, so I thought you were alluding to that Interview.

All I said was that I vaguely remember debating with you before...

Where was Ron in danger in HBP? And how was there hate-love in SS/PS?

So Ginny was in love with Harry since she first saw him at Platform 9- 3/4? She was ten years old! Unlikely...
Yes, "love at first sight", but all that starts with is appeareances. The true love thing comes a bit later.
This speculation isn't contrary to the books; all we know is what Harry tells Ginny. Just imagine a scenario, for a moment, where Harry didn't love Ginny and he broke up with her for reasons other than wanting to protect her. He would tell her the same thing! So we don't know what Harry's true intentions are at the funeral. Just because the book is from Harry's PoV doesn't mean we know everything he feels; it is 3rd person limited: it uses a narrator to tell the readers the events.

Could you please tell me the basics of the Grimm fairy tales? That might clear some things up... Such as what defines a fairy tale. Until then I'm going to abandom this part.
Look how far this has moved away from whether Ginny is a reward or not!!!

Well, we can assume that Arthur and Molly love each other since they are married and have had who-knows-how-many-children (I'm too tired to count right now...). But other than them, I'd say it's true that everyone else is not in love, because we don't have such concrete evidence to prove otherwise.
Exactly like you said, we are all unique, so this is open to "unique" interpretation.

Ouch, perhaps a bit less harsh towards H/Hr shippers? I was joking about the fact that none of them liked it very much at all...

We are not told what form of Love Potion Tom Riddle was given. It may just as well be Amortentia, but I doubt it. But either way, your statement that you need to be in love in order for a Love Potion to have an effect isn't true, as debated in my previous post.

Earendil_Mithrandir/Numenor

For both Just the Droobles/b] and [b]Numenor, a bit explanation may be necessary.
This is the pattern I see for R/Hr:
Book 1: Ron and Hermione started with bickering over Harry. Ron was on Harry's side, whereas Hermione was out to prevent Harry from taking Gryffindor's points. Down to the highest hate point when they were paired in Flitwick's class. Then, came the Troll incident, which bring Ron and Hermione to a friendship. Harry was also part of the friendship, but Harry was never in direct hate relationship with Hermione in Book 1. The dramatic change in relationship happened only between Ron and Hermione in this book.
Book 2: Hermione suffered from Petrification, and Ron clearly in mourning state, wondering when she could ever wake up. Of course the readers know that by chance the herbology class that year grew the plant needed to make the cure, so the danger seems not that serious, but with the Basilisk still on the loose and unknown, Hermione could have died. Here the author wanted to display Ron's yet-not-fully-developed feeling towards Hermione.
Book 3: While Sirius supposedly wanted to kill Harry and had all the opportunity to do that, Sirius apparently wanted to murder Ron, instead. This may be the realisation of "Die, Ron, die" remark of Ron, which he had to face murder attempts twice. Hagrid mentioned how Hermione was very upset about that, although she was actually at serious war with Ron. Hearing this, Ron's stance was softer to Hermione, that he offered to help her, which leads to the emotional display of affection from Hermione. Now it's even. Readers have seen the first round of feeling demonstration between the two.
Book 4: Ron and Hermione were in serious row about Yule Ball dating, but then as quickly as in Book 1, they became friends again. We knew later that Hermione had accepted to spend her summer with the Weasleys. (Knowing that Harry won't come till later anyway)
Book 5: Hermione was shot at the DoM and had to take many potions to be healthy. Somehow Ron had to stay at the hospital wing, next to Hermione for a similar period of time.
Book 6: Ron got another murder attempt by poisoning, caused Hermione to forgive Ron easily for his fling with Lavender.
Book 7: Ron and Hermione may start with a row (over Viktor Krum?) but as quickly as it starts, they will end it by really becoming lovers. This is just a prediction.
And later in the same book, Harry conquered Tom Riddle. I don't believe the poem was just referring the past. It's a deliberate hint from the author for the present (Book 2) and future (Book 7, end of the series).
Is it really stated the flowery scent was Ginny's perfume? Another poster said it was shampoo? I don't see any reference to that, or is it just readers assumption? In old times, people made their own soaps. Mrs. Weasley may have made soaps herself for the whole family. Ginny has been bathed with the soap since baby. The smell may also resides at the Burrow, but the distinctive combination that Harry picked up apparently only came from whatever fragrance Ginny uses and her own natural body scent. The major attraction part in every body scent is pheromone. That's what make certain body scent unique.
Thousands of girls may wear the same perfume as my girl, but only her scent makes me crazy. And actually, I can smell it even when she didn't seem to wear perfume, and she sometimes changed her perfumes or body wash. When I read about the "flowery scent", I immediately realised what that means due to this experience.

It will be moving farther away if we discussed Grimm's instead of Rowling's. I have given you the quote from Wikipedia about fairy tales, may be it's your turn to provide your definition of fairy tale.




I was joking as well, because H/Hr or non H/Hr shippers alike, many of us are not immune from harrassing or being harrassed.
I prefer a more peaceful discussion, no use to kill each other for a fiction, regardless who's right or wrong, regardless of the type of ship.

Hey, I thought you were against Hr/R??? I wouldn't say that Ron and Hermione had a hate-love going in book 1. And Ron wasn't exactly in a mourning state over Hermione being Petrified. McGonagol (however you spell it) thought Harry should be the first person to know, and only thought about Ron coming when he joined their group. If you want to count crying over somebody in the Hospital Wing, Hermione did it plenty of times over Harry during his Quidditch injuries. But yeah, if your friend is hurt badly, you're going to feel bad; it doesn't mean you love them or anything, just that you're upset that they're hurt because you're friends!!! Ok, Hermione consenting to come to the Weasley's with the knowledge that Harry would come later is irrelavent. Book 5: Ron and Hermione were both in the Hospital Wing at the same time. So what? The whole Trio was in the Hospital Wing during book 3. Book 6: once again, Hermione forgave Ron because she felt bad that he was hurt. This is because they are friends, not because they love each other. Just because you feel bad about your friend being hurt doesn't mean they love each other.

Yes, the author planted them there, but Ginny doesn't know it. The author can plant hints all over the place, but she just can't adjust the characters' memories to make them know things they haven't been told yet. She may or may not have planted that in the peom, yet Ginny herself doesn't know it. Plant all the hints you want, but don't change their memories.

Pheromone is a chemical signature sent between organisms of the same species. It works sort of like hormones, but outside the body, transmitted over the air between two organisms. Also, there have been no published studies that prove that humans use pheromones, although it is generally assumed that they do. However, pheromones have been mostly observed in arthropods. Sure, girls have unique distinctive scents, but not due to pheromones.

Somewhere previously in this topic Jane Austen's works were discussed, shy not Grimm's? Anyways, my definition of a fairy tale: a book or series in which the protagonist sets forth on a journey to accomplish a task for the greater good of their nation, often including a moral at the end. Also usually involves mystical beings, magic, and other fantasy related themes.
Alright, so Harry Potter is a fairy tale, but nowhere in there does it specify that the hero needs to fall in love with a beautiful princess as a reward. In fact, there are many fairy tales in which the protagonist is a woman, or where there isn't a "happily ever after" ending, or where love never even takes a role in it. So in all, just because Harry Potter contains some fairy tale elements does not make Ginny a reward for Harry.

Well, it sounded like harrassing to me (implying that H/Hr shippers are militant, while non-H/Hr shippers are peaceful...).

Numenor.

May be because I never call myself a shipper, I would rather see the series as a literature object, in which the author challenges the readers to guess who will end up with whom. I accept the challenge and with my limitation and the limitation of the information from the books, decided to put my bet on R/Hr and H/G.
Now you know that it's not so. Our presumption can cloud our interpretation. Let's discuss the "shipping" peacefully.
I skipped your personal opinions, because I respect them and don't have anything to add. The fact that Prof. McGonagall called Ron is interesting, because at that stage Ron was not as important as Harry. At that moment, Harry was the pride of Prof. McGonagall for her Quidditch team. She paid attention to Harry and knew his company. As Harry is the center of attention, it's logical for Prof. McGonagall to call Harry first, but then (as the author arranged) Ron came by and got called as well. This extra is a clue for R/Hr.
I disagree, because it was discussed in detail in the past and it was shown that Hermione's attention to Harry's broken arm in Quidditch was minimal compared to her attention to Ron's throwing out slugs, for instance. Hermione cried when Harry was thrown out of his broomstick from high up in Book 3, because without Dumbledore's intervention, he would surely be dead.
But also doesn't mean, they don't love each other. Hermione forgave Ron and then focused her attention to Ron, didn't reject Ron's "I love you", started to touch Ron more intimately, and cried in close physical contact together with Ron. All of those facts together (not just one scene) bring the conclusion that the two like each other romantically.
I'm glad we are in agreement here. Ginny wouldn't have known what will happen. It's the author who conveyed to the readers her foreshadowings.
I'm curious, where do you get the information about pheromones? Yes, scientists understand pheromones from the research in arthropods, but now it's known that pheromones are found in many species and presumed to exist in all species (nobody has yet completed checking on every species).
I never said, a girl's scent is due to pheromone. The scent comes from many factors, including nutrition, hygiene and environment. Pheromone is only a part of the scent, which is thought to be responsible for the attraction between people. I can testify it works in my personal life.
I don't know where you get the definition. I hope it's from more "valid" source than Wikipedia, that you feel not authoritative enough. Anyway, I'm glad we come to agreement here. Let's move on.
Are all fairy tales following the same path? Of course not. But let's see some of the famous ones: Snow white, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Beauty and the Beast, in either original or Disney version, which more people are exposed to. Why should there be beautiful princesses (made parody in Shrek)? Why should be a grand action against evil before the happiness is due (good things I don't have to vanguish any evil to get my girl's approval)? All are apparently the classic and successful recipe for a good fairy tale.
Jo Rowling obviously follows this successful pathway as well, because there is no urgent need to make Ginny that desirable for many boys. It would be sufficient that Ginny is attractive for Harry alone, just like in the parody Shrek, wouldn't it?
It's an opinion which I support (I'm not the first to state it) that Ginny is developed to be a "hero reward", a special person filled with desirable attributes and enviable traits only for the ultimate hero of the story. Ginny is not developed as a robot, but as a dynamic person, with limitations matching those of Harry and appopriate for her age. True to the author's style, Ginny will not be suited for any other boys but Harry. Equally, Harry cannot find his match in other girls, but Ginny. Similarly Ron and Hermione were developed from the raw incompatibility to refined harmony. The author stressed that no good relationship is from raw personality alone. Two people have to get closer and understand each other better before they can become a long-lasting couple. She arranged that it took 7 books for her main pairings to achieve her goals, no less and no more. However, she uses different patterns to develop the pathways of the relationship.

So McGonagall called Hary to tell him his best friend was Petrified because he was on the Quidditch team and that somehow made him more important to her? Ron is Hermione's friend, too, yet McGonagall didn't find it important enough to tell him about Hermione. Ron didn't know what happened when he came over to Harry and McGonagall, so he didn't come out of concern for Hermione. It's just that, to me, McGonagall thinks Harry is more important to Hermione than Ron is, and that Hermione is more important to Harry than she is to Ron.

Hermione paid just as much attention to Ron when he threw out slugs as Harry paid him. Hermione didn't cry very much in book 1, when Ron was knocked out at the chess match. (This is going back a couple of posts:) In book 3, Ron was't the only one in danger. In fact, I'd say he was in the least danger. He broke his leg and got drawn into the Shrieking Shack. If they had returned to Hogwarts without Pettigrew escaping, I'd say yes to that being to most danger in the book. But Hermione and Harry (and Sirius, too) were in far more danger when they were attacked by Dementors. They were about to lose their souls! Book 5: Ron was attacked by brains, Harry was possesed by Voldemort. Hermione was not in the most danger in there, either. Ron was not the only one to face near death in HBP. And in CoS, Hermione was Petrified; Ginny was almost dead; Harry was almost killed by the Basilisk; Ron and Lockhart were almost crushed by the rock slide in the Chamber. Hermione not in the most danger here, especially since we know that there will be those plant things to revive them.

Right: it doesn't mean they love each other or they don't. It's just one of those scenes that could be turned both ways, and may not even be meant to be going towards any particular ship at all. Ron's "I love you" was joking because she saved him from having to redo his homework. It's not like every time you say something you are being serious. If I meant everything I've said... I'm not quite sure what shape I'd be in right now, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be good Hermione continues the joke by saying "Don't let Lavender hear you say that." Now, if Ron was being serious, then Hermione then showed that she doesn't return his feelings by talking about Lavender, instead of herself. She cried at the funeral. I'm sure she would have done the same thing had Neville been sitting next to her. Now, I have no proof for this, so I'm sure this can't be accepted as evidence.

Ok, so Ginny doesn't know what they are doing. At least not until HBP. She still doesn't know what they're doing specifically, but she still knows that they're going to fight Voldemort (She made a comment about that at the funeral). Hence, she shoudl feel upset that Harry appears to value Hermione more than her. It may or not really be that way, but to Ginny, that's what it should look like.

I got it from Wikipedia (See my comment about that below). Pheromones are presumed to exist in all species, but not confirmed. So yes, there are sex pheromones. But no, they are chemical signatures picked up by an organ thought to be somewhere in the face. Not the nose. Perhaps they are picked up in that organ, then interpreted as smell in the brain? Or perhaps the pheromones are sent along with their scents, so that pheromones appear to have a smell? I really don't know. And yes, you said, "the major attraction part in every body scent is pheromone" a couple of posts ago. Pheromones are not a part of the scent at all, but are closely associated with it.

I got that from dictinary.com. Wikipedia is a very good resource for almost everything (I use it on practivally every project). It has an error margin close to that of Britannica, despite it being an open encyclopedia. The only problem I have with Wikipedia is with it's definitions of certain things, fairy tales among them. There really is no set definition for a fairy tale, so it's more of an opinion. We can form loose guidelines for it, as we have shown here, but nothing in stone. So the definitions in Wikipedia for these kinds of words are only the opinions of those editing that page.

You've just said it yourself: not all fairy tales follow the same pattern. In HBP and OotP, many guys are said to be attracted to Ginny. Ginny is not just attractive to Harry alone anymore, then. Actually, in all relationships, you must be attracted to the person you are with to some degree, even if you are the only one who thinks so. What I don't agree with is that in all fairy tales, the Hero must fall in love with and marry the most beautiful princess. If she is the most beautiful to him, fine.

Earendil_Mithrandir

McGonagall brought Harry to Gryffindor Quidditch Team and bought a broomstick for him. Naturally, she knew him well, more than Ron. Harry was in the field among 14 people, whereas Ron was among hundreds of spectators. Naturally, it's easier for McGonagall to find Harry first. However, interestingly, once she saw the less unknown Ron coming, she decided to invite him to come along. That means McGonagall understood that Hermione was as close a friend to Harry as to Ron.
Hermione was extremely nervous about Ron's case, compared with Harry who was actually amused by the slug incident. In book 1, Hermione immediately went back to Ron, once Harry got access to the next room. While the readers followed Harry's adventure, Hermione tended Ron all the time with all her might, dragging him far to safety.
From the characters point-of-view, Sirius was holding a knife in front of Ron, ignoring Harry who slept in adjacent bed. Thus, there was attempt at Ron's life. Hagrid stated that Hermione was very upset about the incident, despite her non-speaking term with Ron. The Dementors attack occured when Ron was even unconscious. Harry and Hermione could still do something, but Ron was totally helpless.
Harry didn't have to stay in hospital wing. Ron regained his conscience soon, only need to heal the wound marks caused by the brains, whereas Hermione had to take many potions to get better, and you think Hermione's injury was the lightest?
Ron was nearly dead by poisoning. He spent a long time in the hospital, and Hermione was extremely moved by that.
But from characters POV, Hermione was the one needed frequent visits at the hospital wing. All the things in the Chambers happened in one evening.
Hermione took Ron's words seriously, because she immediately challenged Ron about Lavender. Typical girl's attitude. Ron answered correctly by showing he wanted to break up with Lavender, hence, he chose Hermione over Lavender.

Crying while being held tightly like the way Ron did to her? I don't think Hermione would do it with Harry or Neville.
This has nothing to do with our discussion on valentine card.
We don't know Ginny's reaction yet. It's an open speculation. What we know is: while leaving Ginny behind in safety zone, Harry didn't mind to bring Hermione and Ron to danger zone.
Glad that we agree on using the Wikipedia as one of the information resource.
I can understand your sentiments about being attractive primarily to the one you love. Alas, the most successful fairy tales usually have the most beautiful and desirable princess in them. Ginny is desirable, as she has attracted many boys' attention, but her heart always for Harry, not the most handsome boy in the series.
Cheers,
Muggy

Only 100 more days... *Sigh*

I don't mean to be too picky, but there were at least 15 people on the field (Madame Hooch). Anyways, McGonagall didn't invite Ron. He joined Harry and her, and she said that it might be good if he came along as well.

I'd wouldn't say that Harry was amused. In fact, he was the first person to respond and help Ron, and then was the one to suggest going to Hagrid's rather than to the castle. When they got there though, Hermione and Harry began a discussion with Hagrid about Lockhart, ignoring Ron for the moment. Hermione didn't go immediately back to Ron in book 1, either. She and Harry "charged through the next door" with only a "desparate look at Ron." She wanted to continue with Harry, but when she realized that there was only enough potion for one person, she got very upset and almost cried. From what we learned towards the end of the book, Hermione went back, revived Ron, took a couple of brooms and flew out through the trap door. Ron must have been alert enough to fly, meaning that Hermione wouldn't've had to "tend to Ron all the time with all her might" and "drag him far to safety."

As we now know, Sirius didn't want to kill Ron, but Scabbers. Meaning that Ron was never in any danger, though it seemed so. Hermione was having a very rough year. She was taking so many classes that she needed to redo several hours at a time just to get to all of them. She was doing extra research to help Buckbeak. Harry and Ron wouldn't talk to her because of the Firebolt. She and Ron were having another stupid argument about their pets. I'd say that's plenty of reason to cry, but the fact that one of her best friends seemed to have almost been murdered just put her over the top. Ron even says that he refuses to talk with her until she gets rid of her cat. But when he takes over the research for Buckbeak, he doesn't have time to think about their argument and they begin talking again. Yet when he realizes that Crookshanks never ate Scabbers, he doesn't apologize to her, as Harry tried to do when he got his Firebolt back.
The fact that they could have done something about the Dementors doesn't matter. What is important is that Harry wasn't able to produce a Patronus. If Timeturner-Harry hadn't cast the Patronus, Present-Harry would have been Kissed by the Dementors because he wasn't able to do anything about it. Which means he was in just as much danger as everyone else.

Hermione didn't suffer the lightest injury, but there were others who were in just as much danger as her. Danger doesn't equal injury. It equals the potential for injury. Everybody who went to the DoM was in the same danger, it's just that Hermione was the unluckiest.

Harry almost died in several places, too. As did Katie Bell, and a bunch of other people who fought in the battle. But did Ron nearly die? Are we told that the poison would have killed him? Or is that just an assumption? Couldn't the poison do something other than kill the drinker? Although I honestly believe that it would've killed him, I'm just trying to find out how much of this is assumptions.

As far as I remember, Hermione was only visited once because McGonagall cought Harry and Ron sneaking out to try to solve the mystery. They created the fast excuse of going to visit Hermione, and that was the only time they were allowed in there. At all other times, they had to be with a teacher. And why does it matter how long these events took place?

Ron did not choose Hermione over Lavender by saying this. He had wanted to break up with Lavender for much longer than this (the earliest point I can remember is when he was in the Hospital Wing). If Hermione loved Ron back, then why didn't she respond with something about herself?

How would we know if she would? All we have is our own clouded view on this.

Actually it does, since it originated from the discussion of if Ginny knew what Ron, Hermione, and Harry were planning on doing. You said she knew something about it, referencing her Valentine's to Harry.

Very true... Of course we haven't seen Ginny's reaction yet. For all we know, she might be planning on how to secretly follow Harry. But I still wouldn't say that he cares more about Ginny than he does for Ron and Hermione combined... By DH, nowhere is safety zone.

Numenor

P.S.- Are you still here, JustTheDroobles???

Yeah, time flies... *Sigh*

A bit picky if I said to you "Come along!" and you said "That's not an invitation".

Hermione has said that nothing she or others can do but wait. Ron was in the conversation as well, snorting slugs.
Nice interpretation, but after that Hermione quickly disappeared to see Ron.

How about Hermione's remark that she pulled Ron?

Of course, but the characters didn't know that, so the feeling expression was based on Ron's "murder attempt".

Correction: not in front of Harry. Hermione and Ron apparently mended their rift privately, also in Book 6, behind Harry's back.

But nobody got Hermione's dramatic change of treatment like Ron. She practically spoiled Ron thereafter. That's the main point.

Dumbledore said to Draco on the Tower that the poison is meant kill DD. It's not a light-weight poison.

Because the author uses the time to display Ron's mourning, compared to Harry's business-like approach. That's why at the last visit (at least that's their second visit, because the first one was when Harry and Ron were called from the field), Ron could not get his eyes off from Hermione, while Harry could, and he found the paper in Hermione's grip.

We have known Hermione so long, it would be un-Hermione-like, wouldn't it? She has to poke Ron on this. That's their style of conversing.

You are absolutely right. We let our imagination fly. The book shows Ron holding Hermione while both were crying. No room for other persons.

Ginny made her valentine with the notion that Harry would win against Voldemort. The valentine refered to the first chapter of Book 1, but the message will supposedly still true at the end of Book 7. That's the foreshadowing by the author.

Good that we can agree on many parts of the statement.

Cheers,
Muggy

JtD, Droobles, Droob, whichever one is most convenient for you to type.

I feel strange calling you Numenor. I don't know why. Anyway, I know that he wasn't in love with her. It was in quotes because he was "in love" with her because of the potion. I understand what you mean, but even if Harry didn't mind being seen with her, I don't think he would have broke it to her so easily and had the thoughts that he did. It seemed like he genuinely cared about Ginny, whether it be love or not,a nd if he was on love potion I just don't think that ever could have really developed.

But then again, Ron didn't know Sirius was after Scabbers, so he really wasn't in any danger. And it could be interpreted that Sirius just pulled back the wrong bed hangings expecting it to be Harry. Harry was the real one in danger. And I also disagree that a dog taking ron by the arm/leg would not really be murder unless he started to maul Ron right in front of Harry and Hermione.

Hermione wasn't the only one that was hit by something. One had a broken ankle and Ron was attacked by brains. Harry was sort of unscathed because he was the hero and he has to go on and fight because that's always how it has to be.

Please don't make me be a Mod in here. You guys are good debaters and this is not something you should be debating about. Next topic.

The thing with pretty princesses and hero rewards could be viewed differently depending on the reader and the hero. Some people could view Ginny as the beautiful one, while others are much more attracted to Luna or Ginny. These days I find myself parallelled to Ginny and I respect her character, but I think Luna is a much more beautiful person than Ginny or Hermione. Does that make her right for Harry? Absolutely not. I think there are flaws with all three relationships, and in my opinion, I would prefer Harry to be alone. I don't think any of those three girls are particularly cohesive to Harry and his needs. If you want the reasons I'd be more than happy to extend the conversation to more than just Harry and Ginny.

Here's the definition of pheromones from Britannica online if you prefer that source. It sounds about the same to me.

This quote may have nothing to do with what I'm about to say, I just want you to know what I'm talking about. McGonagall chose Harry to come along because I think she knows that Harry and Ron are really the only true friends Hermione has. I don't care who else she talks to, whether it be Ginny or Lavender or Parvati or whoever, everyone knows that Hermione is tight with Ron and Harry. McGonagall I think has noticed this from the first year. It seems natural that she would want to alert Hermione's closest friends. McGonagall was in such a frenzy she grabbed the one she found first. Ron was there and she suggested he come too. It wasn't just because he was there, it was because they are good friends. I could go on a tangent about things supporting R/Hr because that's really the only ship I avidly defend, but I'll refrain since that's not the topic.

And on another point, I have always thought that Hermione and Ron have been extremely bothered and worried when the opposite is ever hurt. More so than Harry has ever been, except in the instances when Hermione is hit by a curse (Harry then got up and continued after he was sure she was alive), Ron was near poisoned to death (Harry saved him, hooray), Hermione was petrified (Harry was concerned, but Ron was more effected), Ron was attacked by brains (but Harry didn't do much about it...not that I can remember.). My books are out of reach...

Isn't Harry supposed to be the most desirable? Out of all the males mentioned throughout the series, I would also have to say that he is in the top five of being the most attractive too. I'm just going off book descriptions here though, because if it were movies, I would note vote for Harry. Harry is never described as ugly. But also, none of the others males are described as good looking with the exception of Cedric. (correct me if I'm wrong.)

I actually don't think that Hermione is the one to be focused on in this scene, but rather Ron. Ron had always been extremely awkward with Hermione whenever she would touch him or throw herself on him like she did somewhere around book 3, and this was a huge step for him. He was stroking her hair and was even crying himself. Ron--the kid with the emotional range of a teaspoon! He's the one that took the bigger step in HBP.

Hermione's not good enough friends with anyone else to care. She would be worried about Harry too, but since Harry's the "hero," he's not going to be put in the same danger as Ron. I think reading about a month in the hospital would be rather boring.

I'll point out that the line was written "the hero who conquered the Dark Lord." Not "the hero who conquers the Dark Lord." It could be foreshadowing, but there's lots of better ways to do that, and I don't think Jo would foreshadow that far in the second book.

That's all. I'll try to be better at coming in here because I feel like I'm just repeating everything everyone has said. Even though I'm sort of the middle debater here.