For the record, I never named this topic "Was Harry Already a Horcrux"

I posted something similar to this in the "Is Harry A Horcrux?" thread, but I thought it seemed different enough to make a whole new theory and maybe allow others to create a different theory on the connection and whats really in Harry. Please keep it from turning into another "Is Harry A Horcrux?" thread, talk about the other possibilities

I’m going to introduce another possibility that may shock or make you very confused. But first, we must look at what we have come to see what happened that night that Voldemort attacked the Potters. First he killed his parents, Lily sacrificed herself, thus protecting Harry. We don’t know how long it took, but Voldemort turned his wand on Harry, did the AK curse, and it backfired. This left a scar on Harry’s forehead, Voldemort was ripped from his body, and they both now have connection.

One theory I propose is that a piece of Voldemort’s soul was already in Harry because someone else (whether that be Dumbledore, James, Lily……whoever) placed it in him. So when Voldemort did the AK, he essentially hit himself which may be why it backfired (going to where the soul originated, which is Voldemort, and thus ripped him from his body). But we know that its ancient magic. So does that mean anybody who has this ancient magic can live through an AK curse? What if Voldemort tried the curse again before the power goes away, or before he became a new walking, talking, Voldemort? Would it have had the same effects? This would only mean that somebody got a Horcrux, extracted that soul piece, and then placed it in Harry. I don’t think that’s likely, so maybe Voldemort placed it in Harry. That would make absolutely no sense, because he AKed Harry, which would mean his soul piece dies as well, unless theres something in the spell to make a Horcrux that protects it.

Unlikely….

But what about this theory? Its not a soul piece within Harry, but its Voldemort’s imprint left behind. Voldemort was supposed to die that night, but he remained in existence (I won’t say alive because being immortal, I believe, is not alive or dead). When he did the AK, he himself was ripped from his body and left clinging to life. What if his imprint went on its own too? Without a mind to guide it (like the ghosts), since Voldemort is still around, it had to somehow find its way into a living thing that matched Voldemort (“mark him as his equal”) So it went back to where it originated…only it didn’t realize that its not Voldemort since it doesn’t have a mind. Voldemort was able to use this to his advantage in OotP, but didn’t realize what it was until the end, where he may have had second guesses. He was able to access the imprint, now residing in Harry, and give it a mind (but it couldn’t control its actions, which is why we didn’t see Harry walking around killing people or anything like that). Giving it a mind, allowed it to be manipulated by Voldemort. So when Voldemort actually possessed him a the end of OotP, he found out it was his own imprint and stayed away. He retreated to think about the next move to get his imprint back. There might be certain ramifications to not having an imprint.

Did any of that make sense?

And I couldn't think of a proper title, so feel free to ask for it be changed.

yes i see what you mean, but what is the imprint without the mind?

There is a jellyfish that is made up of cells but does not have a brain to speak of, it can't move, think or sleep, it simply goes with the tide, but it exists still. And it is one of the most dangerous creatures in the world.

But if it could think for itselfit could be much worse

Now if Voldemort could access that part of him in harry he could control his subconcious, making him do things he doesn't want to do, thus he could kill harry potter without him having to touch him

It's like what happened to ginny, voldemort could eventually control what she did.

a very interesting theory

by the way, ghosts do have minds as they can walk, talk and do anything on its own accord.

wasnt the AK backfired because of his mother somthing about the sacrifice for love were since she gave her life it protected harry? hence is why it backfired. and my opinion on the scar is that it is an imprint not a horcrux left by the AK becuase of LV being such a powerfull wizard at the time of this doing and using such a powerfull spell even lillys spell couldnt stop that and that the scar is more of a link or bond if u will that harry and LV share. and that they can prod each others minds if need be.

I realize ghosts have their own minds

Thats because the person had a choice to become a ghost. Voldemort lost that choice when he was ripped from his body. The soul piece remained with him, the imprint (or ghost) was also ripped out (because Voldemort was supposed to be dead, and immortality does not mean you're alive). It would go back to its body, and if Harry has just been marked as his equal, then it would go to him (out of instinct, or force).

Voldemort controlled Ginny with a soul...which is living...I guess he can control Harry, but through something that represents somebody already dead. So somehow there would be control, but very limited, which is why I think it was manipulation of thoughts (like Sirius being tortured), and actual visuals (like when Harry looked at Dumbledore and suddenly had anger). It could be reversed, as we saw with Avery being tortured (I think it was him), but it still remained within Harry.

you are right since voldemort really doesnt have a soul anymore he cant become a ghost...but i think he might be able to since he isnt dead yet so he cant choose to leave or stay as an imprint...

Do you guys think that if Voldemort performs the AK curse on Harry again, that it will destroy his imprint and make Harry appear to be dead (as in knocked out)? or something like that...any other possibilities?

Just a suggestion

PS, if a mod is reading this, can you change the title to The Imprint Theory? Please

if youre imprint theory is correct, then yeah i would have to say that it would look like harry was dead because voldemort just killed his imprint.. that would also be an excellent way for jk to bring even more suspense to the story, making it look like harry was dead

one more quick thing to add to your theory, i am 99% positive that voldemort would choose to make himself a ghost in case he ever really did die.. you remember in OotP when harry is talking to nearly headless nick, he says that wizards make themselves ghosts so they can remain on earth, in some sort of life.. voldemort is so obsessed with not dying that he would definitely be a wizard to leave an imprint of his soul behind, which makes your theory even more plausible.. when the ak curse backfired, voldemort was basically dead, and so his imprinted soul would remain behind, but, in actuality, he was still alive because of the horcruxes

the only question then is would his imprinted soul actually come out if he was still alive, even if it was in the least possible form?

Do you think it would? Perhaps he doesn't know it is there, and if he does, is there anyway he got call upon it to get it out...or even if he would. I wonder if it would act like some sort of Horcrux...only when he does he possesses Harry by being granted to be a ghost (he'd be stuck in Harry because he isn't dead, or be able to get out?).

Have you checked out this topic? It talks about whether Voldemort would or could become a ghost

im not sure it would come out.. it would have to almost be confused to a point, because voldemort would basically be alive and dead at the same time, so it would have to choose what to do i guess.. i dont know if imprints can choose? but that brings up another topic, since ghosts can actually think for themselves as the wizard once could, would voldemorts imprint come out either way just so he would exist again on earth?

To be honest, I had a very difficult time following that. Perhaps you could explain a few things for me? Perhaps then I could respond to it better.

Imprint, you say, is like a ghost. by that do you mean that it has no soul, but merely an imprint of a person's personality, like a ghost or portriat is? In other words, what exactly do you mean by "imprint"?

What reasons would someone have for putting a piece of voldemort's soul personality into harry? And how would this have been obtained, given it wasn't voldemort who did it?

Why does the imprint not have a mind?

was the imprint put in before harry was attacked or during it? Or both?

You say the imprint was released during the attack. Released from voldemort or from harry?

If this is a second imprint, where did it go? Harry already had a piece in him. Did he now have two?

If it is the first imprint that was originally in harry, why did it return to harry?

If the imprint was released from voldemort, and there had been no peice before that, why did it go to harry?

How would voldemort give the imprint a mind?

Ok, those were the things I didn't get.

-fish

Whoa! Let me see if I can answe these, Savingharry. I've been meanig to say this, in case I didn't, I'll put here...I don't think anyone could have put "something" in Harry in order for this to work, so I think it was just the charm at work.

Anywho...


Imprint as in what somebody leaves behind when they die, or maybe an echo if you will. It is also reasonable to call it a ghost, of course...but I'll get to that.


You're right about how hard it would be to comeby this. Somebody would have to physically take a piece away from Voldemort's body...or something...which would happen unless he was dead...or if they did, they wouldn't be able to get away fast enough. So that is a flaw in the theory (corrected above hopefully)

Voldemort's imprint doesn't have a mind of its own because Voldemort is still technically alive or in existence (like that prophecy thread, huh? Its all basically based off of that I suppose). Voldemort was ripped from his body and was supposed to die, but he didn't, which let his "imprint" or ghost go on its own so to speak and thus he didn't have a choice to move on. It then went to Harry because he had just been marked as his equal, meaning it couldn't differentiate between Voldemort or Harry.

The Imprint went into Harry after the attack, since it could only be released when Voldemort was ripped from his body (released from Voldemort and into Harry).



-like I said, I made the mistake of saying something was put into Harry before they were attacked. The charm was the catalyst for all this. It went to Harry because of him being marked as Voldemort's equal (Harry has two, his own and Voldemort's, within him).
-Originally it was just a piece of something, not Voldemort's imprint itself...which now that I think about a piece doesn't really do anything.


He can gain access to it through Harry over any amount of distance and through anything since it is his own imprint. A imprint with no mind can't act on its own, so it layed dormant in Harry. Later, it was used to manipulate his mind. Maybe its an intangible thing. Perhaps all Voldemort had to do was think real hard and he'd have access, only before he didn't really think and just was able to make Harry's scar hurt a little (or burn).

Hope that helped...I admit it is complicated...

OK, I followed less than half of that, but, OK!
I really don't know what you're talking about, so I'm just going to list my own theory, which I think is connected, while I try and figure out what you're talking about (I'm slow, so this may take a while), oh, ok I get a little bit more, so I think I can connect my theory, to yours. Ok, here we go. So, I think that Harry is a Horcrux, but that he was created a Horcurx when he was attacked by the Dark Lord. I also believe that this happened without the Dark Lord's knowlege and that he knows now (well, of course he does, but still, he found out after the fifth book), and that's one of the reason's he didn't ask Draco Malfoy to kill Harry, and mostly cause he want's to do it himself, but I think he knows that if Harry's killed, he might loose that part of his soul/ thingy. I'm really not sure how this happened, but it would explain their connection thingy, you know? So, to connect this to your imprint theory, you people think, or you person, I don't know which, but anyways, you believe that it is an imprint, while I think that its a Horcrux, though I might say that the imprint theory makes more sense than mine, but only because I don't really understand your theory in the first place. So, I think that's all, cause I should probably go check and make sure that there isn't already a thread about him being a Horcrux, though that's what I though this thingy was titled, but I might be wrong, so just ignore everything I say, and you will all be safe, well, from me, at the least.

~La MaitressedeMort

La MaitressedeMort, there is a "Is Harry A Horcrux" thread up at the top (one of the stickys), but we can talk about yours here for now. If it requires an incantation, or a spell, how did Harry become a Horcrux by accident? Very interesting stuff! Unfortunatley there isn't a lot discussion going on in here

Anywho...check this out:

-Voldemort attacks the Potters'
-Goes after Harry
-performs the AK
-Is ripped from his body
-was supposed to die but didn't leaving his imprint and soul behind
-imprint (ghost) didn't have a mind because the soul or consciousness still belonged to Voldemort who was still alive via Horcruxes (essentially Vapormort)
-imprint goes to one that has been marked as equal since it can't tell the difference
-imprint resides in Harry

i dont know about all of that. i do remember him saying that due to all of these horcruxes that LV had made, he had essentially shredded his sould making himself something less than human. i think that when the spell backfired on him it did as you say mark harry as his equal. however it also destroyed his body and sent that soul fragment out into the universe where it managed to survive probably on the power of the remaning horcruxes at that time. because it is also said that in order to destroy LV his horcruxes must also be destroyed. which was DD theory. and i believe that in order to become a ghost your soul would have to be whole to leave behind an imprint such as nick. i think that voldemort forfitted that when he tore himself to bits in the attempt to have essentially immortality. i think the scar just forged a link between them transfering power. only when LV became aware of this link was he able to try and utalize it after regaining a body.

wow that was confusing

anyway i dont really get this harry is an imprint thing for 1 how could part of LVs soul been taken away from him without him knowing???

this is strange because he would feel something if someone managed to do it, however i dont know how any1 would do it

this leads me on to why would voldemort kill harry if he was an imprint/horcrux thingyee because he would know about his soul

then saying harry was an imprint, when voldemort did AK he would jst kill his horcrux, i dnt see how it has an effect on the rest of his body, because DD said i dnt know if LV knows when his horcruxes are being destroyed

however the most important part, what about lily and his scar i mean it would make no sense that lily died to save harry if they had put part of voldemort in him, they would know that harry would have to die. also why would they plead with voldemort not to kill harry, and why would james tell lily to take harry and run when voldemort came

also how about they didnt know if the chosen one was actually harry or neville because the prophecy applied to both of them. this means that they would have protected neville as well as harry and neville would have voldemort in him

i dont think that lily/james/DD would ever risk harrys life like that just to put part of voldemort in him, which they couldnt have obtained in the first place

i want to understand more about this and im soz that i have jst completely contricdicted everything and i dont mean to sound mean i jst cant see the sense in what you are saying

I know its really complicated, and I also realize it didn't make sense in the beginning for me to put that somehow a piece of Voldemort (soul) got into Harry without anyone knowing...especially Voldemort.

Basically it is this general idea:

-Voldemort attacks the Potters'
-Goes after Harry
-performs the AK
-Is ripped from his body
-was supposed to die but didn't leaving his imprint and soul behind
-imprint (ghost) didn't have a mind because the soul or consciousness still belonged to Voldemort who was still alive via Horcruxes (essentially Vapormort)
-imprint goes to one that has been marked as equal since it can't tell the difference
-imprint resides in Harry


You're right, if he knew about it he wouldn't attack Harry. If he didn't, the result would still be the same. I think most of your other questions are about them not wanting their son to die. If you had a plan where your child was going to die, would you want it to go through easily? Would you want to spend as much time as you possibly had with him/her? Maybe that was the case with Lily and James. Though, like I said before, I don't think (anymore) that somebody got a piece of Voldemort and placed it in Harry...that'd be hard to do right?

You should check out the Phantom Death Theory

As you said early on that they have a connection. Could that have affected Voldemort also?Could that be what saved voldemort from dying that night(the sacrificial thing lily did)?Does it were off for Voldemort right away because he is over 17? I want some answers and want them now!lol

I'll try, but we won't know the truth until the seventh book, that is if this is anywhere close to what is really going on. Remember, this is just a theory

I think Voldemort has a connection to Harry, but Harry has it in a different way...such that it affects him more than Voldemort. He, Voldemort, didn't really realize what was going on until the 5th book. He didn't feel the connection like Harry did.

Voldemort did die that night. What brought him back, or allowed him to "exist" were the Horcruxes.

Harry can not and is not a horocrux.

Firsty, if he was a horocrux, why would Voldemort be trying to kill him? wouldn't he be destroying part of himself as well?

Secondly, if he was a horocrux harry would have to destroy himself before anyone could destroy voldemort. and harry is the only one who can kill voldemort so that would be hard to do if he had to kill himself first.

Thirdly, if it is not good to make an animal a horocrux which dumbledore said it was, wouldn't it be worse to make a human a horocrux. a human is more able to make its own decisions and more likely to be hurt of killed.

Fourthly, I firmly believe that you need some sort of spell to put part of your soul in an object. That would be really hard to do if voldemort was torn from his body after attacking harry.

so therefore Harry isn't a horocrux.

I hate to tell you this, ladybear1515, but the theory isn't about whether Harry is a Horcrux or not. You can find that thread stickied at the top of this forum.

But, I'll see if I can answer your questions. The main idea of the Horcrux theory is that Voldemort made Harry a Horcrux on accident. I'm not real familiar with the whole theory, since I have my own ideas, so perhaps you should go to that thread and ask



Not necessarily, there are multiple things that can happen. Afterall, its magic isn't it?

In an effort to clean up the forums before the release of the final Harry Potter book, this thread is going to be locked and archived. Please do not open another thread on this topic; you will have plenty of places to discuss all aspects of the books after the forums reopen.

If there are any questions, please let me know via PM! Thanks!

passerby
VTM Forums Moderator