Yes! Some sense at last! I'm so glad that logic is still a means of human reasoning. This protest was so brainless that it threatened to upset everything civilation has built up over more than two millenia - rational thought. Homer was writing and reasoning two and a half thousand years ago already, so I'm quite glad we haven't quite lost that yet.

Definately good news for supporters of Harry Potter. I hope this case can be referred to when other parents attempt similar bannings. It's funny that the board member had more faith in the rational mind of children than the mother.

Darcy, I'm curious. What school district was it? Was it urban or country? or suburban? It's interesting to look at an areas demographics, isn't it? I'll have to put some effort into it and look it up.

Janet, it would be the Pierre School District, the capital city of South Dakota.

I tried finding something online about it but there was nothing. I am not surprised, really. South Dakota is getting a real reputation for being full of backward, fundamentalist hick types. I want to move. Nah, actually I love SD, it's so pretty, and people are actually very friendly. BUt this just torques me off!

I'll replay when I'm done laughing/mocking these people.
*runs out door and throws waterballons at Harry-Haters*
Okay I'm back. I think we should accept that the majority of our planet is filled with closeminded twits (I swear if they banned that book...) who don't understand literature free speech/expression or have any background in real literature. Ever read the Great Gatsby, Their Eyes Were Watching God, Of Mice and Men, Grapes of Wrath, Monkey, A Tale of Two Cities, Oliver Twist, The Bible, The Odyessy, The Count of Monte Cristo, The Scarlet Letter, The Hunchback of Notredame or anything actually worth reading you Fascist nitwits. Ever watched Guess who's Coming to Dinner (not the one with Ashton, the original), Judgment at Nuremberg, Saving Private Ryan, the Hunchback of Notredame, Romeo and Juliet, King Lear(?), Henry V, Ray, Brokeback Mountain (that's right I watched Brokeback Mountain!), Crash, The Lion King, Princess Mononoke(?), the Shawshank Redemption or anything worth waching. I'd keep going but my laughter has become anger.

I do like the water balloon idea, FFFanatic06! Good clean fun, gets the point across, and doesn't hurt anyone.

Unfortunately, in many cases you're right. There will always be a lot of people in the world who would prefer that the world be run according to what they think is the proper thing to do, what they think is the proper way to think, what they think is the proper way to live, and what they think are the proper things to read.

Unfortunately for them, there will always be another group of people quite ready, willing, and able to tell them to take a flying leap! Such fascists never succeed in the end.

This is totally crappy CENSORSHIP! Just because Hp is not real doesn't mean that it is a bad book or sends a bad message. I mean, you don't see people complaining about Nursery Rhymes, but they're fitional so whats the big deal?? I also remember that the church doesn't like Hp because the story involves "witchcraft and wizards", there is the same fued with the church and the Divinci Code. But I think people are wooried that their son's and daughters might become evil if they read about evil which is bad in my opinion because if this new generation of children are never exposed to evil or danger, how are they going to cope with it once there older?

Good point. A lot of this has to do with people wanting to protect/influence their children. (How would I feel if my little sister was reading the Turner Diaries or Mien Kampf?) But, I do feel that we can all agree that there is a right way to influence your kids/friends/relatives/ect. Advise, explain, whatever. Just don't force yourself on them. If they are rational, feeling or competent, you'll be able to avoid them becoming anything radically wrong. And if you can't, well, hopefully seeing exactly what it is they now stand for and what has become of it will change their minds.

I don't know how they ban half blood prince in the Schools?i don't think so it is most furious Hp series book.But may be some children being afraid of by read this book,so thats why they banned it.

Tuni, from what I've been reading, people want to ban ALL the Harry Potter books, not just HPB, because they promote magic and evil. Quite frankly, some of the nursery rhymes I remember from my youth were much scarier than the HP series, and watching the news these days on TV is downright terrifying. HBP is definitely NOT for most younger children (OotP isn't really for the young ones either), but to ban it for ALL children because YOU don't approve goes beyond censorsip.

I agree. And the worst thing is these zealots can actually reach power. Not only have none of these people actually read the series, but they go around and condemn it. Evil? Please. If anything the series supports good and its never ending struggle.
Real literature doesn't shy from controversial(?) themes. They rise up and challenge them. They give a view of reality that's real without being real. All good writers write what they know and use that to further their underlieing(?) moral/social theme. And Rowling knows fantasy so just del with it.
Oh and regarding sordid themes. I have a quote for you. "Wherefore his servants said unto him, Let there be sought a virgin: and let her stand bfore the king, and let her cherish him, and let her lie in thy bossom, that my lord the king may get heat." Can anyone guess where this is from.

I, for one, think it was a fabulous decision. While they're at it, they should also ban "Little Red Riding Hood", because the wolf eats her grandmother! OOh, OOh, and "Hansel and Gretel", because and evil witch fattens them up and tries to eat them. (can you guys catch my sarcasm here? )

What idiots these people are. There is nothing wrong with HbP. It is a fabulous, well-written, intrigueing book that inspires millions of children to read. Who in their right mind would want to ban it?

If I was a witch I would crucio their butts until they came to their senses

Here, here! Only I wouldn't use cruciatus. I'm againdst the Dark Arts. Except for Sectumsempra that technique is cool. Probably whatever Hermione put on that parchment in OotP.
Anyway. You bring up an interesting point (though I don't think you did it intentionally) most childhood stories are based on old legends/myths and are designed to programm the child into a certain way of thinking. Both Hanzel and Gretel and Little Red Riding Hood came about the middle ages when it was essential for that society to prevent children from running into the woods. Or atleast that was there excuse. Back to my point, this is just a society hving an alien idea entering and them wanting to get rid of it. It's probabaly the lamest excuse you can have but that's why they do it. Or atleast how it got started.

True, and I did bring those stories up for a reason. All of the most widely-known classical children's stories have 3 parts:
1-a good guy (e.g. hansel and gretel, little red riding hood, bambi, etc.)
2-a bad guy (the witch, the wolf, the hunters)
3-a moral behind the story (don't wander off into the woods, umm... ok same for the other two but you get my point )

So, you see, the writers included a frightening element in each of those stories for a reason. The reason is to teach the child reader a lesson. The same goes for Harry Potter. The recurring theme throughout the HP series is "love is powerful". Harry has the power to love and LV does not. DD continuously presses this truth upon Harry for a reason. Now, as we enter(ed) the last few books of the series, the story has branched out to trust and cooperation. The sorting hat and DD state, on many occasions, that it is of the utmost importance for the students of Hogwarts to unite as a whole. They need to put aside their differences and work together for the greater good. What better moral could there be in a story?

None really.
It just occured to me that if anyone in said school district really had a problem they could bring this before a court. The defense would have to claim that it's the school's library and that the board has an obligation to preserve the minds of the stdents. The plaintiff would probably just say everything we did and win. It'd be a very open and shut case. And if the board won...Good-bye worthwhile literature.

I'm not sure about the nature of this ban - does the ban means that HBP book is not to be studied under the syllabus? Also, is this school is primary or high school etc.? Or does this ban means that under no circumstances that this particular book is to be within the school property?

If it is the latter, then that is just plain nuts. I don't understand how a school can ban someone taking HBP book to school for having a bit of read during the lunch time or a free period?? Do they have bag checks to see if anyone has a possession of HBP book?

Although I believe everyone should have the right to access to different varieties of books, comics, so on...they may have thought that this book isn't appropriate (don't know the reasons - perhaps age, beliefs?) but as age can be a factor -- but beliefs shouldn't intefer the person's right to read/bring the book to read at their own spare time, only parents have that power, I reckon. Hmm...this is definitely very suss.

I certainly feel for those kids as my one of my happiest memories at school was scouring through the library's fiction section and borrowing a great variety of fantasies, thrillers, romance etc etc. and I'm very grateful to been given that freedom to do so.

No, greeneyes, they haven't actually banned it. It was a victory for common sense and rationality, thank goodness. Some silly little twit with too much time on her hands tried to get it banned from the school libraries, but she failed. I think she was afraid HP was going to breed a generation of Satanists or something. A perfectly logical thing to think, of course. [/Sarcasm]

She's probably going to start on her next crusade now...banning the Teletubbies because Tinky Winky is rumoured to be gay, probably.

Get a life, you sad, pathetic little woman...honestly....

Well that's good to hear. I really hadn't been paying much attention to whatever it was that was going on where ever it was this was going on. We really don't hear much of what's going on in other states here in New York unless you really spend a lot of time looking. I guess it does make sense, though, who could honestly pull something like that off without it hitting the Times.
Glad to here the twit failed just the same.

P.S. Michelle Dessler, I thought we were forbidden from insulting real life people. Can we make an exception for Harry-Haters?

Yes, of course...Harry-Haters, bash away I don't think there are likely to be any HP haters coming here who are liable to take offence, so I'm fairly sure that's safe territory

Kudos to you for reading the rules though - not an awful lot of people usually bother, which is great for tyrants like me. I love having an excuse to whip my Umbridge quill out

Oh that's a relief - I'm thinking geez, there is another aspect of our society going crazy, and it is totally irrational to ban a literature...Couldn't that lady focus on more important things, such as bringing more awareness of the environment, social justice etc. rather than focusing on the specutulation that HP series creates the next generation of "Devils"...man...

I just found this article.

This is so ridiclous, those Harry- haters seem to be searching for anything to make people change their veiws. If that Lauren or whatever her name is lady doesn't like Harry Potter, why can't she just ban it in her household? Urghh, those people are just so ignorant.

Don't get stressed out, Emma. In life there are some things you can't change and other's you can. People like this James Garabino are a lost cause and we must focus more on the moderate and undecided people who are on the sidelines. Thses are the poeple who are easiest to make see reason because they aren't blinded completely by prejudice.
I do see why you're upset. It is rather ridiculous to view Hermione Granger as bad role model. True she lost her temper but she's also a model student and friend. Hermione was just under a lot of stress at the time and I'm sure that if Mr. Garabino had actually read the series and been objective he wouldn't have viewed the act as overly violent. If anything it is paren't we should focus on. It is the example they set that determine how their children will most likely react to the world around them.
Oh! And if any of you are nearly choking yourselves with anger just remember this prayer,

God Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can
and the wisdom always to tell the difference.

It's been a huge comfort to me and I have to go to class with fascists who won't admit they're fascists.

I was just going to post this link, but you beat me to it. I read about this for the first time a couple weeks ago and my only thought was "aren't these the same idiots that are complaining there are no good strong role models for girls these days." It's too ridiculous to even think about. You can't win for losing anymore.

That article made me laugh, Emma! Has that psychologist ever watched a toddler's cartoon? There's a whole lot worse that punching going on there! Heck, has he even been to a school lately?

I think it boils down to the fact that if someone wants to read negativity into the Harry Potter series, they are definately going to find something to latch onto. Now, I believe we are capable human beings with rational minds and we can process all of this information; as the existence of witches and wizards as portrayed by Rowling, the issues dealt with such as discrimination, and even the violence. For younger readers, this would certainly be something to talk through with them as they read the series (though I probably won't let my kids read the books until I'm sure they can handle the information in them), but I in no way think that keeping kids from reading these books would be any better than letting them.

*laughs in disbelief* I cannot believe those people. You can't really do anything about it because they are not going to change their own opinion. It's just bizarre that the whole content of Hermione punching Malfoy will somehow influence the readers to violently latch out on everybody in the public. Come on, use your common sense, "Professor" James Garabino. He has to do better than that and if he is going to make a claim like that, then at least back up with sufficient/appropriate evidence to support your claim. He presents none. Everyone knows that HP is fiction and he has taken that bit out of the whole context.

I agree with you passerby that if you ban the book for children then they will probably become more influenced by it because then they will figure out why some aspects of the story may considered 'bad' etc etc. It just comes down to discussing about it responsibly to ensure it is not taken out of context.

This item is making news worldwide, apparently. Found this article in a Phillipino newspaper:

QUOTE

he upbringing of our children is largely influenced by the schools that educate them—most especially the schools that nurture them from a very young age. These schools play a central role in teaching our children the value of humanity so that when they grow up to be adults, they can, as a community shape societal norms that respect human diversity.

And yet, it is no secret that some schools openly practice discrimination in their admissions process by refusing to admit children of divorced, separated or unmarried parents. Can there be a more shameless form of discrimination than this? And yet, what do many of us who do not agree to these policies do? We simply reject these schools and send our children to other schools.

Is this the kind of community we want our children to grow up in—a community that nurtures schools that discriminates against children who are different than the rest and through no fault of their own? Let us not forget that these schools will invariably pass on these biases to the children they educate who will one day shape the norms of the community our children live in.

But many other types of discrimination flourish within the academe—some subtly hidden within the curriculum. The use of textbooks, for instance, that box men and women into fixed roles propagate, without question, gender bias. I was once horrified to read in an elementary textbook the role of the father as that of one who earned a living to support the family and the role of the mother as that of one who stayed home to cook, clean and take care of the kids.

I don’t see anything wrong with this model of a family unit but perhaps this model should be qualified. Schools (as well as authors of textbooks) should be sensitive to the changing roles of parents. They should also be aware that the family unit is evolving in many different forms. Many children today are raised by single parents, grandparents, older siblings, aunties, uncles and other relatives. Men are not the SOLE breadwinners of the family as women are not the ONLY caregivers.

To tell children of impressionable age that there is ONLY one form of family unit and that the roles of mother and father are FIXED is to teach children to discriminate against those who do not conform to this mold.

And then there was this brouhaha over JK Rowling’s Harry Potter series spurring some schools to ban the books because they were about witchcraft. So what if they were about witchcraft? Does anyone actually believe that our children will want to become witches after reading the Harry Potter series? If such is the effect of media, should we also ban films like Superman in case our children should be enticed to leap out of windows and fly?

Where does such small-mindedness come from, I wonder? It is simply unforgivable within academic walls. Minds thrive in environments that are free—of censure, bias, judgment. The goal of educational institutions should not simply be to produce brilliant minds but to produce minds that are open and able to respect, accept and appreciate diversity. Our goal, after all, is to build a community, not a cult.

(sunstarcebucolumnist@yahoo.com)

Hi, Lorelai! Unfortunately, posting a large amount of quoted text does not count as a part of your own post, so you still need to obey the "no one-liners" rule. I know it can be tricky when you want to point out something interesting you've found but please do try to elaborate with your own opinions and such to keep the conversation and discussion going. Thanks so much for your attention to this! And thanks for pointing us to that article!

passerby

Even in the Phillipines!

Oh honestly, I think people need to get a grip. These books are FICTION. FANTASY. Nothing less, nothing more. It's not like we're all going to become witches and wizards!

I think the people trying to shove this stuff in our faces need to find hobbies, because if all they want to do is tell everyone how "evil" and "satanic" Harry Potter books are, they have way too much time on their hands.

And I'm glad that Filipino article is taking a bit of a stand against it. That is great to see that sort of thing.

She hasn't given up?! Did you guys see on the main site - she's appealing.

Gawsh, can't she just give it a rest? Apparently, this is why she's doing it:



Yeah, Harry Potter is a 6 (soon to be 7) part encyclopedia on everyday magic. If Harry Potter influenced one in every 10 kids that read it in that way, the world would already be covered in crazy kids running around graveyards with sticks in their hands.

Harry Potter's fan base is so big, that if anything sinister was going on among its fans, someone would have noticed something really wrong by now. There are always a percentage of people who get too caught up in stuff - that's how it is. It has little to with the specific content - those people are always there. But because HP's fan base is so huge, hearing more of these stories is natural. Not that I've heard any really, but hypothetically speaking.

This woman needs someone to peer deep into the dark chasms that is her common sense, and stirr things up a bit there - clearly she has some dormant braincells where other people have logic.

But the silly little woman hasn't even read the books!! How does she know what they're filled with? She's going to battle here based on what she *thinks* is in there!! Maybe someone should tell her that it's just a big joke and HP is actually the story of the London sauce-making industry.

And she doesn't have time to read the books....

Mmm...she seems to be finding plenty of time to make a pillock of herself, doesn't she? Curious, that

Didn't i tell you? I'm a witch, i believe that you kill a pig and good things happen to you! Whooo... I learned this from Harry Potter. Except... no... wait a minute... I couldn't have... To the best of my belief, this is no sacrifising in Harry Potter

However there is a bit in the bible. God told Abraham to kill Issac, and then told him not to but to kill this sheep instead. Ok, not human sacrifise but, still a little bit of sacrifise. I don't think that killing animals for sacrifise is a good thing, and I don't think it's done today (and it's the old testament i'm talking about so a looong time ago )

oooh... red or brown? Or are they going fancy and making mayonaise?

Or if not sauce.... what about a bunch of cobblers? Oh no wait... sorry... there are contitations of magic connected with show repair people too. Those elves you know.

I really want to sit this woman down and give her a peice of my mind I told my mum about all this malarky and she laughed, saying that it was silly.

I think people who ban books are control freaks. It isn't enough to control the minds of their own children, they want to do it for everyone's kids! Strange thing is, this same person has not targeted the "Narnia" series, nor "The Wizard of Oz," books which are clearly classics in children's literature.

Usually the kind of people who are the most vociferous instigators for banning or outlawing something are those who have some skeletons in their own closet. I don't know much about this 'mom-of-four" from Georgia, who is so threatened by Harry Potter that she refuses to read it, but I'll bet her history is...umm...interesting.

My kid loves HP, and he's a total atheist. Gee...guess it didn't work. He's not a wizard.

Ah yes, unless you include Wormtongue Wormtail sacrificing his own hand to revive Voldemort.

QUOTE

but I'll bet her history is...umm...interesting.

I read in one of these articles this woman is an ex-missionary (I specifically noticed they wrote "ex-missionary" and not "formerly a missionary" - if that means anything.) Many missionaries tend to be zealots, and this person is proving she fits the bill. On the other hand, the school board DID tell her she had the right to appeal. Isn't that an appealing thought.

Hey - can someone provide a link to the main site about the woman's motives for appealing against the decision? I am quite interested to know a bit about her history and background, which would perhaps give an indication on why she is so particularly against the book. However, I'm surprised from what Michelle said that the woman haven't even read the books - how can she even make a judgement on something she has no understanding of the content and story? That is very narrowed minded, in my point of view. I truly sympathise for her children based on how she seems to be such a poor role model for her children in teaching tolerance and open minded view.

Edit: I found the bit that you guys were talking about on the VTM main homepage so at the moment, I'm googling Laura Mallory to find a bit more about this whole debate! Will report back if I find anything interesting.

2nd Edit: Ok, she states that the books contains demonic activity, so I decided to look up what is exactly demonic activity. Here is what I found:



So to my surprise, yes, HP series do fit the definition of what is demonic activity. However, I just think it is ridiculous that she has taken it as the face value, rather than considering the content - it is a fantasy fiction afterall and is not strictly referred as Satanic/devil.

So really, she should get a life and stop wasting everyone's time.

3rd Edit: Sorry guys, but I found this really interesting and is quite objective - have a read - Business Casual: The Trouble With Harry - clearly Laura is an idiot and mainly, she has embarrassed herself massively.

That was a good article, greeneyes, thanks for posting the link to it!

It, and your post, made me think of something I'd forgotten till now:

In my state, I was a Reader Adviser at the Library for the Blind. Anyway, while I was there, I learned an awful lot about how government agencies work. We had to put up with an extraordinary amount of abuse from Joe Public sometimes, simply because, as taxpayers, they had to be handled with kid gloves. So there would be certain people who would, as a rule, take up 90% of our time, while the nice people got far less!

The Braille & Talking Book Library was upstairs, the state library downstairs. The downstairs librarians would get phoned up 30 times a day by the same neurotic guy asking dumb questions for them to research, and they had to put up with it! They also had to put up with leering customers, etc. Same upstairs. We had a client who had, shall we say, certain fetishes? And he really enjoyed talking about them. And because he was a taxpayer who could sue, we had to put up with him.

Now, in both instances, things took place to save our sanity that were not entirely kosher, but that's another story. Simply put--the taxpayer can get away with being a total jerk to lower-level government employees, simply because they are a taxpayer!

So it is with Laura Mallory. Since our education system is funded by taxpayer dollars, if a taxpayer has a beef with anything, the employees have to see it through. It's the law. Everyone who is a taxpayer has a right to complain, and take people's time, and waste resources, arguing the same thing over and over till there's nowhere higher to go.


The funny thing to me is, is that by continuing to push the envelope on this issue, this woman has galvanized the HP fans. I'm sure far more will show up for the state hearings than did for the county ones. Georgia is actually as progressive as any other state. They're having Katie Leung & Matthew Lewis over for DragonCon in September! Let this woman waste money and time. In the long run, she can feel she did all she could, and the rest of us can still let our kids read HP. lol

Hear, hear!

That was really interesting - about the tax-payers and the time-wasters who complain and is allowed to. I hadn't really thought of that way and now I feel bad for those who work in the public service etc. They must put up with a lot and worst thing is that they are unable to whinge about it at work (well unless they are at home or something like that)...

You are exactly right, Laura will suffer the consequences for her actions, which perhaps wasn't the best course of action, but she should have let people, particularly parents for younger kids, to make the decision to read HP and accept that it's their choice, rather trying to force people not to read it.

Well first off I want to make it clear that i dont agree with this women even though some of my points may sound like it does. She lost face with me when she stated that she hasn't read the books. This is where a person will automaticly lose any credit with me. If you want to make a stand on something you must do the research and thats where one of my passions have stemmed from.
I'm a fully devoted christian and take my faith very seriously, but one of my passions have been defending the Harry Potter world from my fellow believers. Many of them have not read the series for the simple fact of one word, witchcraft. In christian beliefs, We are told not to tolerate any form of witchcraft because its a sin. On that point alone i fully respect my fellow christians, If in their personal life they want to remove the influcences of witchcraft from their children they fully have that right in their own personal life and kids.
My problem that i have with this is the fact that they focus on specificly Harrydom. When i look at it from and unbiased side not just an outraged fan of Harrydom, prostesters need to fine tune their agruement--their focus on just harry is where my agruement comes into play. My first question is does their children watch disney, narnia, lord of the rings? most of them let their children watch these programs. and this is where my problem sits, why is one form of withcraft ok but not another, they need to boycott all withcraft not just Harry. Many people say that because Tolkien and Lewis were such honored "christian" writers the magic is ok because of the christian symbolism that their story is ok. I can find all kind of "christian" symbolims in the HP books.
I fully applaud this womens attempt to stand up for what she believes in but her means are wrong, she needs to focus on witchcraft in general not just one book. She has the passion to pursue her beliefs and not care what others are saying about her which from what i've been reading on several HP sites is really bad. She hasnt backed down.
Where she goes wrong is forcing her beliefs on other parents. the books have the right to be there and its the parents responsiblity to do there own "sensoring" of their children and guide them in their reading. if a parent thinks HP books are ok for their children thats that parents right-a right you cant take away. Now if she wants to be truly effective, then she needs to do her research and do her own campaining and let parents decide if they agree with her or not. But taking the books out of the books would be denying parents their rigihts to raise their children in their own ways and beliefs.
I want to side step I would like to say that all missionaries are not zealots. I have participated in many mission trips through my churh and we dont go on trips to force our beliefs on the people we go to help. I went to Haiti in 98' and yes i was able to share my beliefs to the people my main goal was to provide healthcare to children that had nothing. That's what most missionaries are out there to do. Help the people in their flock and it doesnt matter if they accept our beliefs, their there to be a beacon of hope to people that have nothing or have lost everything. Missionaries are there to provide food and shelter and comfort for the hurt.
Yes they do share their beliefs but most missionaries will not force thier beliefs. But let it shine through their actions till the people see that there is something different about that person and they want to know what it is. Sorry about this tangent its just missions is very important to me and I just dont want people to think that all missionaries are not like this women.
But anyway, I really do think that this women is really off. She needs to do her research and change her tune. She has the right to her beliefs just not to force them on everyone else. I guess my main problem is that if the very minor witchcraft is your problem, then you need to focus on just that witchcraft and not single out Harry.

I really hope that I don't ruffle too many feathers here - it's not my intention so if I do, I apologise. It's just my two cents on what seems to be the hot topic around here

'K...let's see if I can work these quote things...

[quote]they need to boycott all withcraft not just Harry[/quote]

Trouble is that I don't think they should be boycotting anything. Stand outside the movies or stores and rant with their placards if they want to, but they've got no right to stop me from seeing something or reading something if I want. That's forcing opinions on me, which really makes me want to tear someone's limbs off If I'm going to hell for watching something with witchcraft in then hey, so be it. It's my choice, you know? I wonder how it would be if I stood outside 'The Passion' and tried to get it banned because it conflicts with something I believe in? I mean come on, guys - there's bigger things in the world to be worried about. Seems to me like some people have screwed priorities. These people should practise their censorship at home, and only at home.

[quote]She hasnt backed down. [/quote]

So, by this logic, do you admire Al Qaeda? Because they haven't backed down either. They're standing up for what they believe in, aren't they? Yeah, standing by your beliefs is an admirable thing, but it's when you cross that line and try to get everyone else to think like you do that things start to break down. That's what she's doing. Forcing her beliefs on others and she has no right to do that. Respect the opinions and rights of other parents, Mrs Mallory.

[quote]I went to Haiti in 98' and yes i was able to share my beliefs to the people my main goal was to provide healthcare to children that had nothing. [/quote]

I have such personal problems with this. It's not that missionaries don't do great work - they do. But I can't help but feel that they're doing what they're doing for the wrong reasons. These people need healthcare and help...but they don't need it to be piggybacked on a message of religion. It seems like a form of brainwashing to me and that bothers me. It doesn't wipe out the good they're doing, but it seems like kind of a sneaky way to get others to believe what they do at a time when people are vulnerable. But I guess I'm getting off topic with that and I don't think I want to get yelled at again, so...
Oh, just one more thing about it...

[quote]But let it shine through their actions till the people see that there is something different about that person and they want to know what it is[/quote]

Something different? So people who aren't religious can't be good people too?

You know, I think the church in general just has problems with anything that affects so many people because they feel threatened. Same thing with the Da Vinci Code. It presented a popular alternative view of history that has intrigued a lot of people. Anything that replaces the bible on home shelves worries them. They're just afraid that people are getting so that they don't need a religious crutch to lean on anymore. Which removes their power - which gets right to the heart of the matter. It's not about saving people's souls, it's about holding on to influence and power.

I'm reading back through this and it sounds a little strong, doesn't it? Sorry I just needed to get it off my shoulders, you know, and I don't mean to single you out, missmugglebethany - it's just that this is kind of a sore spot with me. Sorry if I've offended anyone.

Ok, I'm apologising too here, sorry. I need to draw some distinctions between what this woman does and what missionaries do - and why.



Ah but see, us Christians do believe that Jesus exists, and that he loves all of mankind. We want people to see it that way - we are happy in the knowledge that he loves us, and we want others to feel that love. Yes, we want that. We believe with all our hearts that we are loved, and our message is one of hope for those in need. (Or we should feel that).

However, once someone has said that they do not agree and that they believe otherwise, it is not our place to try to convince them by our own means. We believe that the Holy Spirit does that - and we should back down. Missions are there to help people in need with food and shelter yes, but we also believe that we are helping people by telling them about a God that loves. You cannot hold it against us that we believe our message saves and wanting that for others too.

But like I said, all you can do is tell someone about it - then it is entirely up to them to choose whether they believe in it, and I respect that choice. Forcing a belief on someone is, in fact, unchristian. I don't deny that you will get Christians who have alterior motives (i.e. who want the world to see their p.o.v. for the mere sake of 'being right') - it is tragic, and something that all humans should be try to avoid.

This woman, while probably believing that she is standing up for Christianity, is behaving in an unchristian way. The Christian message is one of love, hope and silent faith in God's will - not one of censorship, force and bravado. The church did that for too long.

Like missmugglebethany said, if people are ok with Tolien, Lewis and Disney, they are being hypocritical if they condemn Harry Potter.



I don't think she meant that. We simply believe that there is hope in our message - that's the 'something different'. Sorry, but answering this requires some explanation of the Christian belief.

I think the single most difficult thing about being a Christian is realising that we don't know the answer. We don't know why people are killed everyday, or why wars are fought, and why tragic things happen, why lives are wasted or destroyed or ended. Being a Christian is not saying "I know the answer", but rather, "I don't know the answer, but I believe that God does". Christianity is about admitting to not knowing, instead of claiming to know. It is a near impossible thing to achieve, because it gives rise to so many paradoxes which a human just can't understand. And it is there where people fail - the fine line between believing with all your heart and telling others, while admitting to not knowing the answer. Is there a line? Is there a way of explaining it at all? I don't know.

Faith, of any kind, is something that happens in one's heart. It is not something that should be contained by laws and censorship. I can't understand why this woman tries to do that - it has no depth. Does she honestly think that she is spreading the message she believes in? She's doing the opposite, and making the mistake many religious people have made in the past. She gets to me at two levels - she's making my religion ridiculous, and she's making democracy a joke.

Edit: Ok, I read this again, and the one thing that struck me is that I really am a romantic. Actually, I know that there are hoards of people who call themselves Christians who don't mean to save people's souls. It is difficult to figure out who really cares, but I believe that is what Bethany tried to say - you'll find out sooner or later by watching someone's actions.

Another thing - I don't mean to say that non-Christians can't be happy. I won't be as naïve as that. All I'm saying is that we do believe that people can find happiness and security in the knowledge that God loves them. And of course, if someone believes otherwise - nay, is happy otherwise and knows it, then I will not try to force anything on them, and if they needed my help with food or anything, I respect their choice by trying not to make them feel obligated to anything. One's actions should not be ruled by the motive of converting people. One should help for the sake of helping another human in need.

As I see it, a missionary's object is to help. Telling someone of Jesus is considered offering help, and if someone refuses that particular piece of help (and they have every right to do so), it should not stop a missionary from offering food and shelter all the same. Have I muddled it up more?

Sorry, this last bit is off topic, but I just wanted to clarify my meaning. Or try at least...

I can see both points of view here, but what this woman is doing is still way out of line.

And the whole thing about preaching religion--here's the rub. The Christians who do it want to share. They think they have found the key to happiness and they want to share it. I understand that. But by the same token, Christians who attempt to convert others are also often projecting the impression that they think they are superior, that their religion is superior to anything anyone else has. There's a really fine line between 'helping' and 'pressuring.' Having been subjected to both, believe me, they both start to feel the same after awhile, since they are based on the same premise-namely, "I have the superior set of beliefs, I want you to think the same way." Many times, such an action can be rationalized by those doing it, but what it really is about is a desire to gain power over other people. I'm sorry, it isn't a pleasant thing to think about, but it is, 99 times out of 100, true.

Now, one can see the bind this woman is in. She is a stalwart Christian. Christians are instructed to stay away from anything to do with witchcraft. So...if she reads the books, informs herself as to their actual contents, then she is going against her religion. But if she doesn't read the books, she looks like a willful ignoramus. There's no way to win. Either way, she's a hypocrite.

Thing is...assumption that your religion is superior is pretty common stuff. After all, if you didn't think that way, you'd find another religion, right? But the assumption that others should follow your religion is wrong. The assumption that everyone in Gwinnet County, Georgia, is a Christian, is wrong. The assumption that just because you don't want your children reading a particular book, so no one's children should be able to read it, is wrong.

I think Mrs. Mallory is using her religious beliefs as an excuse to force other people to go along with what she wants. And that is wrong. It is un-Christian. If she wants to be a 'good Christian' and stay away from anything to do with witchcraft, she should by all means do so. But she should also learn to live and let live, and mind her own business!

I bet they've never even READ the books! How could they judge something without finding out more about it? People like that make me so mad!

I think some of my points were misread,first point boycott- maybe that was too strong of a word, the point i was trying to get at was you can express your views and beliefs without forcing it on a person, they can get their views out there without removing a book from the public libraries and school libraries. thats all i meant, but my stronger point with "boycotting" is hitting the subject as a whole. Their research and information is off thats all. Trying to remove the books from the library is crossing the line and forcing your beliefs on others and thats where she goes wrong.
as for her passion, i was simply meaning that it was refreshing to me to see someone out there doing something. I'm tired of listening to people complain about stuff anything not just in Harrydom, but not do anything about it. Although her views and methods are flawed, she's trying to get her views out there. and to answer a quote

[quote]"So, by this logic, do you admire Al Qaeda? Because they haven't backed down either. They're standing up for what they believe in, aren't they? Yeah, standing by your beliefs is an admirable thing, but it's when you cross that line and try to get everyone else to think like you do that things start to break down. That's what she's doing. Forcing her beliefs on others and she has no right to do that. Respect the opinions and rights of other parents, Mrs Mallory."[quote]

No I dont admire Al Qaeda theres a difference here Al Qaeda is forcing there beliefs on others and hurting others. when you have to hurt someone because you think its the only way to get your views out there thats when its wrong. I,m totally against this group.
Mrs. Mallory's passion is just a little flawed. If she wasn't trying to take a book out of the school no one would have a problem with her they'd here her story and either believe it or shrug their shoulders and say whatever. I agree with this statement at least the second half. she has crossed the line trying to force her beliefs on others. she needs to do it peacefully. If i saw her statements and she was just trying to get her opinion out there without forcing it on me i'd be a little more persauded to listen to her and decide is this someting truly worth fighting for or is this just a lot of air.ts just like any other differences in views in this country past or present. Society will have a lot more respect for you and your opinion if its down peacefully. Im not going into this subject because its off subject and this post is already getting long.

theres one more thing i want to touch on

[quote]But let it shine through their actions till the people see that there is something different about that person and they want to know what it is[/quote]

[Quote]Something different? So people who aren't religious can't be good people too?
You know, I think the church in general just has problems with anything that affects so many people because they feel threatened. Same thing with the Da Vinci Code. It presented a popular alternative view of history that has intrigued a lot of people. Anything that replaces the bible on home shelves worries them. They're just afraid that people are getting so that they don't need a religious crutch to lean on anymore. Which removes their power - which gets right to the heart of the matter. It's not about saving people's souls, it's about holding on to influence and power.[Quote]

I am being quoted at the top and i dont that people whor arent religious cant be good people too. I'm just saying that we want to bring hope to people that are hurting and in need, and to us who are Christians think that that hope is Jesus. I would never force my beliefs on others but if you were to ask what i believe and why I believe it i would jump at the chance. I would never take a "holyier than thou attitude" because it just causes problems. and all honestly i really dont think the church feels threatened. I know that my beliefs so far has stood the test of time and are going strong. religion is not a crutch to a true believer its a way of life. its something we stand on. True religion should not be about power but caring for the hurting the sick and the poor as Jesus did. That is what true faith is its just we get hung up on the words "Religion and Church."

any way this is way way off topic. i appreciate everyones views and dont want to offend i just thought i was being misunderstood and if i didnt make my points clearly the first time sorry. when it comes right down to it I disagree with removing the books from the library. it just makes good discusion to get into the nitty gritty of things so i hope i havent offfended anyone

I really do enjoy reading through this thread and it's great to see so many well thought out posts and people who- like me- are so passionate about these books, freedom of speech (within reason of course) and all that jazz. However the problem that offer occurs with passion is aggression.

I'm noticing that this thread IS becoming somewhat aggressive in its tone- as well as like a couple of people have mentioned off topic.

Can we please return it to topic and try and watch our passionate tones a little. I'd hate to see this news thread close, as I do feel that it's important for people to express their viewpoints on it.

Thanks
~Pix

I'm quite new here, but, I've come across this topic quite a few times recently, and I thought I'd put a word in. Most of the people trying to ban Harry Potter books don't know the whole of the Harry Potter world. They hear stories of terrible 'witchcraft' that takes part in the books, only because these stories they hear become distorted over time. They sometimes don't bother backing it up for themselves, or, they just plain try and twist the words around. I looked up a few articles on google about Christians and Harry Potter, and some of the points were logical, and did, in fact, go against Christian ways. But, one man said "In 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire' a baby is sacrificed." Which is clearly just a twisted version of Voldemort resuming human form. This man also believed that in 'Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets' a cat was sacrificed, which, we all know...Ms. Norris was only petrified.

I respect Christians, and I respect the religious view of Christians. But, I thought the most important things about Christianity were acceptance, forgiveness and understanding. Harry Potter by no means has to be 'forgiven', but what I'm saying is, if these people are so strong on their beliefs, why let something like a book threaten those beliefs? Why don't they just accept the way of the world, and its people, and stick to their own ways. Sure, don't let your own children read it, but don't cut of the experience of Harry Potter to most children who, I strongly believe, won't want to whip out a wand perform 'dangerous witchcraft' on people. What about Dumbledore's insistance on seeing the good in everyone? What about Dumbledore's patience, kindness, and calmness? What about love being the strongest magic of all? What about the love of the Weasley family, and love between several relationships in Harry Potter? It seems like they don't look at the good things, and only create problems about the "bad". Harry Potter, in my opinion, represents things always working toward the good, and that, I think is a really important thing to learn.

You can't be serious! Those people are banning kids from their imagination! Just because THEY can't pick up a book and see the good side of it, doesn't mean the rest of us can't enjoy it!I'm confused ,first teachers are telling us to read 24/7 and NOW they're taking the books away! That makes me mad And YUCK! They say no fantasy? That is literally the worst taste of books i've ever heard of. Seriously, all I ever read is fantasy! Those people should go to some seperate island where they won't bother us.

It's not really about banning all fantasy books--the Georgia woman is focusing specifically on the Harry Potter series because it portrays witchcraft in a positive light. If every witch and/or wizard in the series were evil, then she'd probably be OK with that.

After all, the Narnia series is one of the finest Christian allegories ever written. But the only person in the story who is called a witch is an evil character.

Hmmm...she isn't trying to ban The Lord of the Rings, but it wouldn't be the first time someone has tried to.

Perhaps it is because the HP series can be begun by readers as young as ten. The first book isn't that difficult to get through, after all.

There are always going to be people who interpret things differently. There are some Christians who understand the difference between fantasy and reality, and some who don't--there are both sides in every religion. I think this woman has a lot of moral encouragement, but if this resolution is passed, I'll eat my plastic Hagrid figure. And Fluffy.

I'm amazed that the US are allowed to do this, if they tried to do it in the UK there would be a total uprising! It's like the fact that they are trying to teach creationism in science...shouldn't be allowed.

I have 4 words to say, They Are *bleeeeep* stupid. Like who the HELL bans books that don't relate to real life? Like your going to go mental if you only read life related crap. You need a change for once no? Like keep reading "How to cook rice" and you'll have LOADS of fun! If I see any one of those people, infront of my face, I will knock them out cold, for being the dumbest idiots the earth has known... Sorry guys I'm just so steamed like passerby
[Mod Note] Hi, please settle down a bit as Pixymajik implores posters to do, thanks.

These guys are definatley full of it.

I mean this kind of censorship is horrible. People are always saying they want to promote kid's imaginations then they go censoring books like harry potter? Clifford? Come on people this is ridiculus. To even imagine people doing this kind of thing and then preaching about building a childs imagination. I think anyone who is old enough to read these books or have them read to them no enough to not attempt it because they know there is no possible way they can. They arn't gonna try it then go join satenism because they think it'll help them do magic. Its like telling telling kids not to play games like army- guy or don't touch the floor.



You have to be kidding me.....

This thread has been really interesting to read, but has become more about religion than I think it should have. Although it is obviously a religious issue as it is a christian, anti-witchcraft thing, but the point is we live in a world with a huge number of religions, and it has no place in education. If you want to be a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim or whatever, that is fine, but that is your personal belief, and children should be educated regardless. Otherwise you would just get every child blindly following their parent's views.

well said catherine, the one thing that we can do is speak out against what Mrs Mallory is saying and make sure people know what the books are really about. Im not going to go any deeper in this because i've already been in heated conversations about this, if you want to see my full opinion scroll back and read it. But i will caution, threatening others for there opinions and using foul language against them just lowers yourself to their level. we need to express ourselves in an intellegent way or it just fuels their agruement.