They're playing at power, plain and simple. You know, I feel that if the HP hadn't been so popular, no one would worry about banning them. And if they had been just as popular, but had been about cute fluffy bunnies, no one would have banned them then, either. It's the combination of extreme popularity, mixed with a theme that some very religious people find 'offensive' that has caused the comtroversy, even going so far as some saying JK Rowling made a pact with Satan in order to become rich.

So far, though, from what I can see, it's only the isolated school district that has got away with banning them. And if, in a year or two, there are new elections to the school board, the ban could be lifted.

Repression never lasts forever--it's the last resort of fearful, ignorant people.

<----Husband of Georgia Woman (yes, that's mean!)

I can't believe school districts are still going on about the Harry Potter books and how they're bad for kids. If they want books that show people being perfect, good, and no evil at all, that takes away most of the books in the world. Without Harry Potter around, some kids probably wouldn't read at all.

As for the ban, I think it's a fruitless attempt. That ban isn't going to stop kids from reading Harry Potter. If they can't read them in school, they'll just read them elsewhere.



How dare they think that! If they want those types of books they should go after the ones with extreme amounts of violence and sex in them. How could anyone be so dense?

So true, writingfreak!

OK, what if I decided that, let's say, "The Wizard of Oz" should be banned? There are plenty of good reasons, aren't there? Here's some the fundies might like:

1. Demonic flying monkeys
2. Glinda, who happens to be a witch, yet is depicted as 'good.'
3. A young girl spending time with three male characters for days on end, with no chaparone.
4. Attempted murder of a young girl.
5. A deceptive world leader (now we know none of those exist, right? ).
6. A cyclone picking up a house (too scary for impressionable young minds).
7. Melting witches.
8. Talking animals.
9. Talking trees.
10. Dare I go on?

How about "Alice in Wonderland," with a demonic card Queen threatening to decapitate people?

Like the little kid said in "The Sixth Sense," 'you have to have some twisted stuff in there,' if it's oging to engage a kid's imagination!

Maybe that's it in the end. Some adults would like to think that the world corrupts a young mind, instead of having to consider that there is a dark part of all of us, which is drawn to intrigue, and 'twisted stuff.' They think if they ban it, the minds won't be twisted? Hah!

I think it's been said before, but isn't this exactly like the Quibbler? The best thing to do to get kids to read it, is to ban it! Jo herself is having a go at these buffoons through her books - twits.



You know, apart from wanting to hang people who say this by their thumbs in dungeons with Filch-like glee (not really!), I get very angry about such remarks when I think of Jo. It must hurt deeply. If someone ever accused me of that I honestly don't know what I'd do. It takes the wind right out of one's sails, I should think. The more you want to scream and kick, the more you realise it won't change anything.

Can't they see they're hurting a person? Has she ever, in her (obligatory) very high profile life, given the slightest indication of having ulterior motives? When I think of JK Rowling as a public figure I see a kind woman, who feels and fights passionately for causes she believes in, and voices her opinion about things she feels are important (that weight issue, for example). She's been heard saying that she would always work, even if she didn't have to, because she wants to set a good example for her kids, and that she wouldn't laze about on yachts. Does that sound like someone who's in it for the money?

That quote isn't ridiculous, it's inhuman. It is, ironically, unchristian. It's low, base, vile (where's my thesaurus?), cruel, hurtful, disgusting, childish... and does that sound like someone we want to trust with telling us what to do?

Of course not! Morons!

ok this happened in my area a few years back i think it was when GOF came out though it may have been sooner but all harry potter books were banned from schools and they even tried to get it out of schools all together as in the book itself was counterban even if it was yours and they tried to get it out of the PUBLIC liberary!:o all because of the fact that its about witchcraft some churches were running there mouths and as a potter fan i could tell that they hadnt even bothered to read the books they just took from what someone els said about them it was rediculas the worst part was my own parents were against them and i had to borrow the books from frends to read them (im a bit proud of my loyalty) but in the end i talked my parents into watching the first movie and they gave in the whole point of that story is to say keep yelling about the injustice and it will die down after a while they will find some other evil dooer to persue and give you up like a bad job




------i apolagize if i offended anyone about the church thing i myself go to church but it bothers me when they go off on Jo and Harry like that:angry: i mean if they would atleast read the books first and then call them"evil" well then that would be something but no matter...

And here is yet another one. While this woman makes some valid points, I still view it as censorship at its worst. At this point, the only thing I'm going to consider banning in my house are these newspaper articles!!


Interesting that she doesn't see anything wrong with the "Wizard of Oz" or "Narnia" and probably reads fairy tales to her kids. Nowhere does it mention if she's actually read the books.

Hey, I was interested in witchcraft and the occult when I was a teen. I even went so far as holding a number of seances and casting a few curses. Does that make me an evil person, or a devil/demon worshipper? Harry Potter (and Jo Rawling) didn't even exist at the time, so they can't be blamed. Most people don't think I turned out that bad.

Oh my, this is pure nightmare. These people who try to delete books from school programs, or movies from theatres, or say that actresses are all ...bad girls and the actors all satanists...well I really think that they are scared to death of everything that they can't dominate.
There are several ways to interact with the world. I believe that the mental closure is the worst form of racism and punishment against ourselves and our offspring.
I don't really think that a book or a movie will change my life if I'm not ready for this. And if I'm ready to change, even without seeing a movie or reading a book, I will change.
Keeping eyes and ears closed, repeating "the worldiseviltheworldiseviltheworldisevil" is not the right way to grow up. I find these people very immature and not able to confront themselves with different realities.

And, anyway, I'm a pagan witch. I don't believe in demons.

Witchmom )O(

I feel the article was biased, on top of that. Why did they not give the pagan mom as much time as the Christian mom? Why did we not even get to know the one point she agreed with?

Now, I seriously do not wish to offend anyone here, I'm talking of one specific instance---I had a friend once, who was great fun, till she was bitten by the 'Born-again Bug." Then she became a teetotaler, never told a naughty joke, nothing. But she totally freaked out one Hallowe'en, and called to tell me she saw demons in her living room!

Why did she never see demons before then? Could it be because if you think about something enough, your mind can make it true for you? Or was it because she had so little stimulation in her life that she had to go ballistics over these imagined beings?

It makes me wonder if there is something hardwired into the human psyche that makes us crave excitement? And the more strictly we regulate our lives, the stranger the ways that need for excitement manifests itself?

After all, all of this crusading is probably definitely exciting to those participating in it--it's how they get their kicks! We read Harry Potter and feel the vicarious excitement with Harry, his highs, his lows...they vilify Harry Potter, try to get Jo's stories banned, and that's how they get excitement? After all, the true Christian way is supposed to be that of perfecting oneself before you try to perfect anyone else--correct me if I'm wrong--so all of these people who protest HP, who picket things like soldier's funerals, shouting to the grieving relatives that their child's death was the result of America accepting homosexuality -- Oh, how I wish I was kidding, but I'm not--is this truly Christian? Or just a desperate way for these people to feel alive and meaningful?

Or am I wrong here? Is there a big difference in purpose between the one and the other? Is Christianity--their brand of it, anyway--is that simply a crutch for what's really going on? That is--trying to control other people's behavior?

I agree, it is all about power and control. i remember there was a time in my life when i was bitten by the "born again bug" (love that term by the way) and i shut my eyes to the whole world....if my church didnt think it was right then neither did i...it wasn't untill i actually opend my eyes and had a look around that i realised what was going on.

isn't free speach and free will what we pride our selves on, wasn't one of the reasons people were once so scared of communism was because there was no free speach, no choice. and now they are turning around and trying to contol what people can and can't read.

and how can we take their (over the top christians) word for it...they don't even no what their own bible says, as they turned this censorship on their own bible and took out everything that was written by a woman. what gives them the right to cut things out of our bible, tell us what we can and can't read and call an inocent women who has done nothing but inspire the younger generation to read,a demon wisper.

i don't think harry potter is even half as sinister as some of the events the church has gotten involved in. what makes what they do so right.they think they can do evil in gods name and it will still be ok. they should really have a look at their own evils before trying to poke wholes in a fiction story.

"those who live in glass house, shouldn't through stones!"

Some people really think HP is evil and while I think they're wrong I'm glad they can speak their piece. Others are using it for a rallying point to increase attendance at a church, increase contributions or to get votes. The same as evolution. The library probably had her speak out of a desire to allow both sides to present their views.

We should be glad it's only a few places. To keep it that way, we should be very careful who gets elected to school and library boards. It's been my experience that people who "only want to give me the facts" have a very definite spin on those facts. If you live in the area, a nice letter to the library or school about how much you enjoy HP might be in order.

When the books first came out, the network shows always had someone complaining about HP being evil. They consider such a reaction part of the story.

I find it quite entertaining that schools find harry potter unsutiable for schools yet they require books like lord of the flies were one of the main characters "piggie" gets squashed to death by a giant bulder.There are other books that are far more crude books that are required! The only reason why they don't want the book in the school is because of religious issues. We all know this. And it's just sad in my opinion.

I actually think that it is pretty funny too! We had to read Lord of the Flies and Julius Ceasar in school, both extremely violent books, and yet I am not allowed to read Harry Potter? It is a bit ridiculous and I if I was JK Rowling then I think that I would consider it an honor to be banned as well. All the great, classical books have been banned at one point or another so I guess that it simply secures her title as one of the great authors of our generation.

I have had my own personnal experience where when I was in elementary school and one parent was trying to get the book banned from my school. She was afraid that it was preaching witchcraft and that if her daughter read it then she would automatically begin to worship the devil. Her daughter decided to read the book and now she is a HUGE Harry Potter fan. It is all about fear and the fact that people just don't understand. We consider ourselves American, if you are from America of course, but we practice censorship and go against free speech. It isn't just and if people would just stop for a moment and think then maybe they would leave Harry alone! I love what you said about the Wizard of Oz, what will be next????

ROFL at Matthew's hilarious news piece on the VTM homepage tonight!

"Laura Mallory, the Georgia mother who has been valiantly crusading to have JK Rowling's satanic works removed from the Georgia school system for the past year, is taking her humble request to the Georgia State Board of Education on Tuesday morning at a public meeting.

Ms. Mallory's heartfelt endeavor has been callously brushed aside by a panel at Magill Elementary and the Gwinnett school board, so we can only hope that the state board will finally listen to reason and strip these monstrosities from innocent, impressionable childrens' hands. She hasn't read the books, but that is hardly necessary to judge their wickedness. A cursory glance at the covers, which shove despicable images of unicorns and broomsticks and wands in childrens' faces, is all that is needed to realize that the books are actually a subtle seduction designed to undermine souls across the world.

Best of luck to Ms. Mallory on Tuesday. This hearing is particularly timely, as it falls just three days after Banned Books Week, which is what this is all about - ensuring that our children will never be subjected to reading filth like Harry Potter."

Wicked, wicked, filthy Harry Potter! It's depraved!

I would say, yes, I definitely would say that this woman has passed into the realm of the ridiculous and pathetic, a realm even more dangerous than Harry Potter's...

I just finished reading the article.The first thing that popped into my head when i was done reading it was are you kidding me.She didn't even read the books and she is judging them.The wickedness of them{give me a break}All i have to say is i think it is ridiculous!That is the best word i can use to sum up this womens plead.

i think that this is uterly rediculous, but i disagree very strongly with a lot of things that happen in politics. it might just be me, but it seems that its always somewhere in the USA that someone is complaining about something silly. now im not saying that its amercans or anything like that, i just think it is really wierd. possibly one person started complaining about something like that, and then everyone else caught on and it took over the nation and soon enough it will be spreading to the rest of the world! you cannot stop it children! run... run as fast as you can!
but serriously, it reminds me of the episode of the simpsons where marge gets itchy and scratchy banned. and i agreee with the ending of that show, which is you cannot be against one form of expression and completely for every other. my question is are these people trying to get every fictional book that has ever been written banned? or just the popular ones, or the ones that they didnt enjoy? what about lord of the rings? or narnia? or dan brown? or the hitch-hikers guide to the galaxy? or hey even shakespear. what about all of the authers that have tought us so much abotu ourselves as human beings. to kill a mockingbird! fictional, yet it sends such a strong and important message to people.
these are books that we are taught in high school (at least we are in australia). they are all fictional, and most of them contain something you could complain abotu if you wanted to (be it magic, or religious issues, or racial issues, or anything else).
in case you havent noticed i am quite outraged that these people feel that they can ruin it for everyone else by gettitng things banned. to those people i have simlpy this to say...

if you dont like it, dont read it!

Having spent some time painstakingly wiping all the coffee from my poor keyboard (not really, but it was darn close! ), I just have to say - good one, Matthew! The article linked is also hilarious!

What on earth has gotten hold of this woman? I'm beginning to wonder if she isn't possessed herself, because good grief, can a human mind lose itself like this?

I think this is what happens when people grow up in a protected environment (which is fine, they're kids) but they just never leave it. She has probably never come to grips with the fact that most people aren't Christians, because she has probably never set foot outside her own little world to see that most people aren't like her. I used to think that pretty much everybody believed in Jesus and loved him, but hey, that was when I was tiny and I didn't have a huge social circle as a toddler! For the greatest part of my short life, though, I have known that most people don't think like I do, and that's perfectly ok.

When I got to high school, I had to realise that that insight had not found all of my peers, who had perhaps come from the country. But living in a city amongst people of all races and religions cures that, and everyone can go on with their lives.

Anyway, I can't explain any of this woman's actions without assuming that she just doesn't realise this (or I have assume that's she can't think like a normal person). No normal human being would, in this day and age, consider actually telling people what to think. Sorry, but we've moved a few centuries past that, thank you very much. Unless they didn't know anything about this day and age, which leads me to conclude that she must have been living in a bubble for her whole childhood and adult life... That's pretty sad, because now she's taking on the big world, and she has no idea what it's about. Not good.

I'm just wondering what, if any, oppinions everyone here has on the whole debate among Christians as to Harry Potter books and magic etc, have real demonic influence. I've heard many say that they don't read or support the HP book series is because of the use of "witchcraft" as the medium as to which the stories are told, then again, I've heard others say that they read the HP series openly and can differenciate between fantasy and real life. Why do you think that Christian's in general seem to be so stand off ish about these books? How do you think it is that other Christians are fine with it?

Just curious.

NICKELS

Hello nickels, welcome to Veritaserum I am going to move your post to a lively, well-established thread where our community discusses the exact questions you have asked, if you have any additional questions feel free to Owl (personal message) a Head Auror for support.

Hey Nickels!

I'll try to answer your question, but you must understand that it's just my opinion, so I'm really only speaking for myself.

The main problem is that Christianity forbids Christians to participate in witchcraft. I suppose it really comes down to what 'participate' means to different people. I, for one, don't regard reading Harry Potter as participating, simply because the story is, in my opinion, innocent in that respect. The whole point of the book isn't the fact that Harry can do magic, but that he can love. Some people don't see it that way.

Also, Christians are prone to shutting their eyes and ears from the evil that happens in the world. In many instances in the Bible, it speaks of God as the opposite of the world. 'Worldly' therefore, mostly has a negative connotation in the Bible. That's why Christians choose to ignore, or stay clear of the evil things of the world, which is fine. Differences arise when people don't agree on what evil really is, and to what extent you should shut it out of your life, because after all, we do live in this world, and if we weren't supposed to be here and live in the world, why did God place us here, you know? Problems arise when Christians can't understand that everyone has to choose for themselves.

I have a friend who was Harry Potter crazy until she read the fourth book, where Voldemort resurrects. It freaked her out, and she decided that she just didn't want to continue reading. She doesn't have a problem with me reading it, but she just felt uncomfortable with the whole Dark Magic thing. That's ok. If that is what she as a person has to do, that's what she should do. As long as she lets other people have the same choice, it's all fine.

The fact that this isn't getting resolved, is not because people don't agree, but because some Christians won't let others choose for themselves.

Like this Mallory woman - she refuses to allow people to make their own choices about Harry Potter, and it's simply getting ridiculous now.

Latest News of the Gwinnett County, Georgia case:



I don't understand this article--I was thinking she was going to the state level, but there is no mention of it here. There is no mention of a decision, one way or the other. Maybe I need a cup of coffee--desperately!--because I am missing something here!

*Indoctrinate children into Wicca? Wicca is not about Satan, he doesn't exist for them. Wicca is about nature, worshipping the many gods of nature and respecting the earth. This woman is not only ignorant of the HP books, because she hasn't read them, but she's pretty ignorant about religion, too! Including her own! What a dork.

Thank you for your words, Aethonon. That's why, basically, I can't live my faith openly. Because ignorant people would, sooner or later, shake pitchforks in the air, yelling "Burn the witch", without giving the opportunity to explain what I am and what I worship.

Extremism is always dangerous, among christians, pagans, muslims, even atheists. Luckily, not all the people in the world are so extreme in their beliefs.

I have been hit by the fact that Mrs Mallory didn't read the books.Maybe she wouldn't risk a contamination...OMG, this seems a horror B-movie.

Religions or religious practices are not mentioned in HP, and Wicca isn't at all. The whole world folklore tradition has been the major source for the magic stuff in HP. Folklore IS made of fairies, witches, unicorns, mermaids, healers, magic herbs, dances and moons, food and love. Since the dawn of times, human beings have dreamt, and some of them have practiced magic. Tell me now that dreaming is a sin!! It's really unbelievable.

I would say many other things, but I'm upset for this mad crusade.

Witchmom )O(

Aww, Clara! Don't let this woman upset you too much! She failed at a local level, given the evidence presented in the HP books themselves that contradict her ludicrous claimes, there's not way she can succeed at a higher level. Her agenda is one of an over-zealous name of Christianity, when she really has no basis to back it up. Drives me mad, too, that she puts on her self-righteous suit of motherhood and Christianity and send this book to the pits where she feels it belongs. Gah. As far as her view of the paganistic world of HP. . .it's just what she's been taught about the world. Wicca is associated with witchcraft, and she cites that the Bible is very clear against it. Doesn't matter that she may not understand. She doesn't even feel that she has to understand it, work to understand it, or even bother to read the books to see if what she's talking about is true.


Anyways, she's annoying. If she'd just read the books! (Well, she probably still wouldn't like them, and I'd have to find something else to gripe about her on.) To me, she presents herself as an over-excitable, over-zealous, idiot with a book she hasn't bothered to open (either one). For some reason, I can't take her seriously, and I don't know many who can.

Thank you for your words, Janet! Anyway, this episode is upsetting me because I'm sadly aware of what human madness can do if properly stimulated. I'm talking about insults written on the walls of a house, harassing phone calls, stones thrown at your passage, the whole get-out-of-town thing. It has been lived as an experience in my family, decades ago, but still today, things are not so different. Even in places where tolerance is the general law, if you go beyond the world they know, the whole quarter will try to punish you.
Wouldn't be easier and more peaceful to live and let live, even for these people who can't rest a minute?
And, I am curious to know how she finds the time to make campaigns against HP. Who cares after her 4 kids? surely she has to revise her priorities list.

I wouldn't underestimate the power of her speech. There will be thousands of mad people around the world who will pick their copies and burn them in the main square of their town. Because, for every 100 healthy persons who don't take her seriously, there will be one who'll say "Yeah, that's true, she's right" and start spreading a bad message.
It's not only HP which is concerned, it's the whole literary production of the last...1000 years? I'm sure they have a black list. Let's see...King Arthur? La Divina Commedia? Shakespeare?

Witchmom )O(

[font=Century Gothic][size=7]People like this just make me sick. If they would bother to think, all things were created from imagination. And what more is imagination than fantasy? I was also reading how people were calling JKR satanism and such things. PLEASE! Give me a break! People like this are pretty much that JKR was down on her luck and made the best books ever created. I cannot express my anger at people like this, there nobodies, and make me sick to my stomach!!!

And it isn't over. Now Laura Mallory is blaming the Harry Potter series for the recent rash of school shootings!



At least this one told me we have to wait till December for a ruling. I hope Laura Mallory does not get what she wants for Christmas! I don't even have words for someone who would use these tragedies as a way of pushing forth her own twisted agenda!

ROFLMAO! The shootings?!

Does she even have a brain? Apparently not.

I do agree that her words are hateful, dangerous and hurtful to those whose beliefs she is attacking without even knowing it. I also agree that fear of the unknown causes many (most?) people to do this to others, but if I'm reading the signs right, things are changing, and not in her favour. Painfully slowly in some cases, but tolerance and acceptance is at a better place (on average) than it has been for a few hundred years.

What she is trying to do was doomed to fail from the start, because she misreads the time she lives in. She's trying to go backwards, and not enough people are stupid enough to believe her. Luckily, extremists are in the minority.



What is she saying?! This is what I mean - she's trying to go backwards. What she doesn't realise is the Church has been trying to force people to read the Bible for centuries, and in my humble opinion, that is not following Christ's will for the Church. You can't force Christianity onto someone, in the same way as you can't force any type of religion onto someone, morally speaking now. Practically speaking, it didn't work either, so even if she was on a mission to get everyone converted by persuading them (which she seems to be trying to do), this won't do it.

My point is this - as a Christian I believe that only the Holy Spirit can save someone. Reading the Bible won't do it alone, because it's a book filled with stories about God and wisdom. She can't try to do the Holy Spirit's job. That's sin too. It's like trying to interfere with God's plan, so if she really was doing this to convert people, from a purely theological perspective, she is going aboit it sinfully. How's that for brainless?

Sorry for the sermon.

But Clara, don't worry about thousands of people suddenly believing her - there are enough smart and influencial people who'll prevent that.

Rant coming, but Laurette, it isn't at you!

Laurette, I understand where you're coming from. Worldwide, I think things are improving, well, sort of. If you compare it to 300 years ago, I suppose it has.

The thing that has me really upset is that clear heads and tolerance are not the way things are going in America right now. Intolerance is promoted, and the Religious Right is getting a lot of things their own way. I used to think that the things that have happened in my country since 9/11 would never, ever happen. But they have.

Now, when you go to a meeting of, say, a group that wants to protect forests? The FBI trolls the parking lot, takes down your license plate number from your car, and starts a file on you--because you might become an environmental terrorist. If you are invited to an event in which the President will appear, the Secret Service watches as you park your car. If you have an anti-Bush bumper sticker, you are not allowed in, even if you have an invitation. We're having controversies all the time about evolution vs. 'intelligent design.' Wiccans killed in military service are not allowed to have the Wiccan symbol on their military gravestones. The symbol is not approved, even though far more controversial symbols have been.

City governments can take your land from you and plow your house under in order to build a mini-mall. All they have to say is that it is good for the community. A person can now be arrested and detained indefinitely, with no accusation, with no trial. If they finally let you go, you have no legal recourse to complain about the arrest. Sounds like the freakin' Gestapo to me, and in my own country!

I can provide links to articles if anyone questions any of this.

Luckily, there are enough cracks appearing in the armor to where I think things might become a bit more sane, but we'll see.

This woman is just another example of the overall plethora of intolerance and hatred in my country right now. Banning the Harry Potter books may seem like small change to some, but it is an indication of just how repressed and fearful America has become. I predict this stupid case will end up in the United States Supreme Court, which is balanced in favor of conservatives like Ms. Mallory right now, and then we may see Harry Potter disappear from every school library in the nation.

Am I paranoid? Possibly. But I read too much to not be!

Clara, I didn't mean to trivialize any of your feelings at all! I hope you didn't take it that way! I understand that she is a force to be reckoned with, or she wouldn't be all over the papers spouting her anti-Harry rhetoric!

She's just willing to attribute anything negative to HP!
Two things: First, the most recent school shooting incident happened in an Amish town (where I KNOW HP wasn't involved in the school in any way!) and were carried out by a man who was 32. (Not that he couldn't have been exposed to HP . . . but anyways). And if she's going to attribut HP to these school shootings, how is she going to attribute it to this one:


the deadliest one in history?

It does anger me that she thinks that she can attribute the actions and attitudes of individuals to a fantasy book she hasn't even read!

EDIT: LOL. . .I didn't realize that there was more. . .I totally missed Laurette's "sermon" and Darcy's "paranoia!" Note to self: Make sure you read all posts until you get to the end and don't assume you're at the end because YOU'RE NOT!

LOL! Nice, Janet!



Wow, Darcy, from reading your post, it would definitely seem so. My frame of reference is South Africa, and I am astounded to find that our way of handling religion is so progressive in comparison with what you say about America. (But then, we don't have much of a terrorist threat, so extremist followers of Islam isn't such an emotional subject here, which causes unease over there, I dare say). The only other country whose politics I follow is Britain, and the Brits are far more to the left when it comes to religion... or at least, that's my perception of them compared to South Africa. Either way, it is worrisome to read that the religious right have so much influence where you live. And Clara, I understand that your situation is even more personal and irrational.

If I may give an outsider's opinion on this religion issue in America (I hope I don't offend anyone), is that it goes hand in hand with terrorism. It's not a new thing for a government to use religion to manipulate the morale of a country. The Russian revolutionaries did it, the medieval monarchs did it, the Romans did it.

This is probably a wild sweeping statement, but speaking as a relatively objective outsider and comparing it to similar historical instances, I'd say that it is easier for the religious right to have a finger in the pie while terrorism is a threat. Losing men in a war will undoubtedly knock down the morale of a country, and that's why the government wouldn't mind in the least if a religious message of hope and subjection to authority could be spread.

This leaves the door wide open for idiots like Mallory, because she has never needed to step out of her bubble of a life - her rights are protected, so she doesn't have to ask any questions to herself or anybody. She probably doesn't even realise to what extent her rights are protected. That's why she doesn't realise to what extent others' rights are being neglected and how her behaviour makes it worse. She can just hit off in a direction with the general idea of spreading the Word, and it never crosses her mind that's she's being an idiot. By all standards.

It's a viciously complicated affair, because you have hoards of people and organisations who are basically just out to get themselves a better deal. It's incredibly involved, and what I said now could be blown out of proportion, not by people who don't understand, but by solid facts - if not all facts are taken into account. My story will obviously be out of proportion anyway, until all the facts are laid on the table, but that's impossible, of course, so there's just no way of summing up this situation in a way that will reflect the whole truth.

The main point though, is that whether public demand has it that way or not, we have moved past discrimination on an intellectual level. If this trend of Mrs Mallory continues, it won't be long until we're back at some 21st century version of 1930's German National Socialist-type anti-semitism or something (anti-anybody, really), and in a hundred years or so, people would wonder whether we had forgotten all about WWII. (It censors the name of the political party of which the Fuhrer was leader... but you know what I mean).

We haven't forgotten though, and the effects of the war are fresh enough in the general conscience and documented quite graphically not to feel it for some time to come. I actually place my hope in the fact that human knowledge has acquired the wisdom that discrimination is wrong. Never before in history were people so aware of human rights - and I feel as though we've irrevocably moved past the point where discrimination is accepted. As long as that idea stays put, the trend cannot move in any direction but towards it, so in time, I think mankind will conquer religious discrimination. Like we conquered slavery. But it'll take time.

This sermon has a less religious feel and a more political flavour to it - I take baby steps.

Don't worry, Janet...of course not, I didn't think that. I was just sharing my worries, maybe exaggerated...
But, I keep on thinking that ignorant people is easily manipulable. That's the kind of people I fear most. The more you see, read, live, experiment, the more you'll be able to form your own ideas about life and the world.

Everyone chooses how and if to be saved, and from who and it can't be said what is better. What is good for me may not be good for you, or vice versa. I don't want to offend anybody, I would say here that even the Bible (which I know fairly well, having been raised in a Christian protestant family), if not properly supported by explanations and interpretations, could be defined a violent book. Indeed, some extremist groups have used it as a tool to flag their ideas of racism and violence. I wouldn't leave it unattended in the hands of a kid. I have followed the usual path of sunday school, church choir, sunday services etc, although my personal beliefs went in another direction, like my mom. But I loved the atmosphere in the community and I left it totally when I was adolescent, to follow my personal path. My father is still there and we discuss religious issues very often.

About the issues by Darcy, well, you know, international press is pretty wild about American government's behaviour. I agree with all you said, Darcy. In Italy, we had in the last years a sort of Counter-Reformation, that is leading the country to a new Middle Age in religiosity, intolerance, closure and is affecting culture, too. But I think that almost half of the civil world has laughed about Berlusconi and Italians letting him do whatever he wanted for years.
Sadly, I don't think the world is improving. Everywhere, maybe for terrorism, for uncertainty of the future, or religious doubts, people clings to conservative values, closing to everything is "different" or "weird" or "..not classified".
At the same time, many people are experimenting sort of "awakening" in which they become more aware... about the Universe. But, the most part of them aren't "warriors", and sometimes peace and understanding need warriors to spread across the world. I am a warrior and fight for what I believe in, even if it's not related to me on a personal level.

But in my opinion, the general tendency is fear, closure and mistrust, at least in Europe.

Witchmom )O(

Burn your bra...Ban the Bomb...Burn a book while your at it. And we went through all this so that some doofass could use her rights to Freedom of Speech!


The lady has got her wish...her fifteen minutes of fame! We went down this road before. It was JD Salingers fault that John Lennon was murdered.

Big Brother is watching us wherever we go, whatever we do. The governments of the world know how many cups of coffee we drink a day, what type of loo role we use and how many times a day we use it! They know what religion we all are or not as the case may be, and they know about little Hitlers like Mallory who spout off garbage. They let it happen because it suits them to. They can hide 'bad news' about real issues behind stupid people like her, because they know that people like us will stand up and say 'Hang on a minute there, I've read Harry Potter and I don't go out with a gun in my hand to shoot the innocent'! They know that we will be angered by the audacity of anyone who dare tells us that a book that we love incites evil, and the powers that be can hide behind it while terrorists intergrate into society to build there bombs, and murderers can walk into our schools and shoot down our kids.

I personally think the lady's a psycho, with too much time on her hands...maybe she should read the bible!!

Of course, this absolute mental case if ever I saw one doesn't seem to mention the fact that homosexual murders have also taken place precisely because people have spent so much time reading and misinterpreting the bible.

You know, if someone's got it within them to kill, they're going to do it anyway, regardless of what they read or hear or watch. Paranoia, fear and ignorance are the greatest threat we have ever faced because it's beginning to tear the world apart from the inside out. Book banning is just the start. What's next? Media filtering? Are we to be told what we can listen to, what we can watch? Are we only to be allowed to see things that suit the governments agenda? Why is everyone just standing around and allowing everything that democracy is supposed to stand for to be eroded away?

Nuclear war is what everyone used to fear. I don't think that's such a great threat anymore. We'll be wiped out by ignorance and the blind clinging to archaic rights and traditions that should have been wiped out years ago long before any bombs explode.

I really fear for the future of this planet. I think I'll retire from humanity completely and take to a mud hut in the Andes somewhere if ever the very dark day arrives that this nutbar succeeds in her lunacy. She seriously needs to get herself a life before its too late.

That one seriously made me crack my ribs with laughter. That is a good one. I don't think she will succeed. I read that she was reading all these other books on the list like, Slepeing Beauty and Snow White, next she will be wanting to get rid of Bambi or something. There will be no books on the shelves if she has her way.

Well, I can sort of explain why things have got so bad in America. It certainly isn't because people are tolerating it, or because we're idiots. The way it is set up, there should be three branches of government--the executive, the legislative, and the judicial. Most of the time, these branches are not all controlled by the same political party, but right now, they are. So there are few checks, few balances. The party in power basically can push its own agenda through right now, with little opposition.

American government is not supposed to run smoothly. It was designed not to! Things are not supposed to happen just because the President decides they should--that was how it was with kings back when our government was formed, and the people didn't want that all over again. But that is what is happening. And this President doesn't care what anyone wants except himself. He states he will hold firm to his decisions even if his wife and his dog were the only ones left who wanted things his way. He panders the the Religious Right--people like Mrs. Mallory. He says that he does what God wants.

But the tide is hopefully turning. Many people of this President's political party feel let down by him, because he is not looking out for the interests of all, but, it seems, only to the interests of those who are rich and powerful. Not all people in that party think the way he does. They don't approve of his "signing statements" in which he signs a bill into law, then writes an afterword that claims that he doesn't believe that law should apply to his actions, and then he goes ahead to do whatever he pleases. This is how we get the problems with spying and torture we have now--he feels he should be the last word on everything. But that is what a dictator is like! He has said he wishes he were a dictator, actually. I think we have a crazy person in office, but that's just me.

Our mid-term elections are coming up. This gives us a chance to replace the people who have basically been giving the President a Carte Blanche to do whatever he wants to the country, and to other countries, like Iraq. Hopefully that will happen, because it's better for everyone if the branches of government are in balance. That is the legal action we can take to stop this madness.

If Mrs. Mallory loses at the state level, which she probably will, I think she'll try to take this to the national level, because as an American citizen, that is her right. We'll see what happens when she gets there. Things might be a bit different by the time she gets there. I hope they are.

Oh, and Louise? I'm with you. Except that now we Americans are so hated it's unlikely any country would want me to be a hermit there.

Hopefully, someone will have the courage to slap her down.

This is exactly what I mean't by the government hiding. They support whacko's like this so that they can pretend real issues don't matter and all the while they think they are supporting the belief's of the majority of god fearing people.

Incidentally how old is this woman? Mother of four is she...god help her kids. She's making a life of hell for them.

I do think she'll get slapped down. But people like her don't listen. She sees what she's doing as a 'rightous crusade,' the same way the President thinks that his own decisions are, because he claims they come from God.

If the Supreme Court approves of her proposed ban, they will have to prove that the HP series destroys young people's minds by showing that the books are pornographic (which they aren't), are full of obscenities (which they aren't), or pose a risk to the general public (which they don't). But we have a majority of very conservative judges right now--so I still doubt.

I'm honestly not trying to knock the Republicans, but it is just never healthy to have all three branches of government controlled by one party, no matter which party it is. It leads to power-mongering and corruption on a grand scale, and that's being seen now. It is the situation we're in now that gives such encouragement to people like Laura Mallory, who will, no doubt, find plenty of wealthy people willing to pay her attorney fees in this. She wants her case to be the case that gets Harry Potter banned from America's schools and libraries.

I'm so annoyed by this I can't stay at my machine! Back to work, Darcy! Smack!

[font=Century Gothic][size=7]I think this whole debate is a bunch of dung. I am a Christian, have been baptized, and I love HP! It is a huge part of my life, not as much as my faith, but still a big part. I think that Georgia woman and all who else think the same things about HP should eat slugs!---*)

Mod Edit: Hi, I deleted the excessive characters in your post. They tend to break up the page, depending on the browsers members use.

Of course not!!! My brother is an US resident, and so my relatives, and we talk often about how the current government had access to power even if the public opinion was clearly against a re-election.


This is crazy!!! Mixing politics and religion is always very dangerous, unless you are a Pharaoh That's why the Vatican's nosy attitude among local and international politics is really irritating. They have an enormous economic power and this mixing the two-three things is something really reprehensible. Don't you think so? wouldn't it be better for them to manage only religious things? Please note, again, that I don't have NOTHING against the catholic religion, but I can't help noticing how human and fallible men manage its secular branches.
I would tell something that, again, I don't want to be misinterpreted as a bashing of catholicism as a whole. People's memory is easily cancelled. I can give materials about this to anyone who is interested because there are official declarations by Opus Dei, Vatican etc. During the year 2000 Jubilee, the Vatican made public excuses for the Witchhunts of the past centuries, but at the same time it was told that the real number of slaughtered witches has been really exaggerated and it was a not-so-terrible historical event, justifying the Inquisitors and saying that just 60 (!!!!) women had been burned in Italy. It's like saying "The hebrew-gypsy-gay-handicapped people burned during the War times in Europe have been just 100". Actually they have stated that the church is not responsible, and I could even accept the theory, and they said that the errors were made by wicked individuals in the church and the remaining victims were made by civil inquisition tribunals.
Luckily, families and individuals have kept personal memories and family stories so that everybody can tell it's a big lie, but who's really interested? a lie that's told a thousand times, becomes a truth and that's why I'm afraid of people like Mrs Mallory. Given that people is more and more ignorant and unaware of their past and their present, totally devoted to TV commercials and shopping etc., it's a hard task to make them remember the errors of the past and treasure their memory not to do the same errors in the future. School has got a BIG responsibility in it, it's not people's fault, not all at least... It's the whole system that is wrong.



Same in Italy until a few months ago.



She will be supported, I'm sure. This scares me, the fact that she will have money to pay attorneys because she's like a representative of a very conservative part of citizens. It's a glutton chance for certain powerful and influent people...

Enough for now...

Aethonon, you and me both, it annoys me so much. Now I must admit cause I am only 14 I don't know as much as you guys and when you go on about politics and mixing religion and presidents in America I don't understand one bit of it. But I think you are right that she only wants HER case to be heard. If she could only see the good that Harry Potter has done for the world.

Oh I don't think that any of those political issues you described, Darcy, are limited to America. I'm not going to lie to you - America isn't popular with most Britons at the moment because the vast majority of people didn't support the war in Iraq, they absolutely despise Bush and treat him a bit like the village idiot sitting in the stocks these days - the butt of satire on a daily basis. But that doesn't mean that Blair is popular here either. He isn't, not anymore. That's part of the reason why he's being pushed from office because he's just simply beginning to lose it. It's very true what they say, about absolute power corrupting absolutely, and I think we're seeing that in both our governments right now. Which is why neither of our leaders are likely to be on the UN's Christmas card list this year.

Whilst this may all seem slightly off topic, it's not because ultimately it cuts right to the heart of the matter. Both these leaders have claimed to have been guided by God - how daft and incredibly dangerous a thing to say is that in these days where the whole war on terror is down to religion? Don't they realise the damage words like that can cause? People hate both our countries enough already without them claiming that their lunacy is God-given. Honestly - how gullible can people possibly be?

*sigh*

Anyway, before I get MI6 or the FBI knocking on my door, I'm going to quit my tirade now and just say that normally, in any other political climate, I would laugh at Mallory and just enjoy seeing her making a complete prat of herself, but when you consider the Bush won the election by getting statements to be put out over the radio that if the American people didn't vote for him, then America would 'burn in hell', or words to that effect (a ploy that seemed to have worked in certain states), I worry that perhaps there are just too many people in power these days who base decisions on religious convictions rather than moral or social ones.

Which brings me right back to what I was saying earlier - that ostrich syndrome and ignorance are going to be the downfall of Western society in the end. Very worrying times.

I mean, this woman must have had advice from somewhere that has convinced her she has a chance to succeed. After being knocked back so many times you'd have thought she's have gotten the message. Apparently not.

Eeek, I can't agree more!

I remember Bush once said that what he was doing was like the Crusades. I'm sorry, but my dad and I both nearly choked to death! Does he know what that means? It's the most embarrassing thing Christians have ever done! Diplomatic slip up if there ever was one.

I was speaking to a friend of mine today - very insightful. She's a very mild and benevolent little creature - couldn't hurt a fly. But! It took me a good three hours to get her to understand that it's wrong to tell people they're flat out wrong if they aren't Christians. She's very intelligent and sensitive (even critical) but it had just never occurred to her that you can't tell people that. It's just not acceptable in the time we live in.

We had started to talk about Harry Potter, and I was telling her that if you wanted to, you could draw Christian parallels. Her argument was that it was wrong to teach good morals without also teaching where they came from. So I had to ask - did it make such a big difference where they came from? If good morals come from God, it seems so trivial to say that they mean nothing if you don't link the to Him. Good morals are good morals. Isn't the important thing to strive towards being a good person for the sake of being a good person, instead of because someone said so?

It's not that I challenge Jesus's authority when I look critically at what he said. I'm not a heretic or an anarchist. I want to understand why he said it, so it's important to look at it from all sides. It's a strange cycle, but the point is that I believe Jesus said things because they were the truth. These things weren't the truth because Jesus said them. Fine balance, but crucial, imo.

It is also crucial that humans have choice. Forcing someone who can think for himself to do something has never worked. It doesn't work, and in fact, it mostly has the opposite effect. And that's what bugs me about this Mallory woman.

She's one of those people who follow some code or idea blindly. I have a huge problem with that. If you don't understand why you believe what you do, it's so easy to trivialise your beliefs. To tie sin to stupid things like reading certain books, or waving wands. Sure, if the way in which the books are read, or the wand is waved goes against what you believe, call it sin, by all means. But don't bind others to that and judge them by such pointless methods, and worse, force them to change something they do. What gives her the right to decide how I live my life? (If I had been a Georgian citizen...)She wouldn't care two hoots if I fell dead tomorrow. Sorry, it sounds harsh, but it's the honest truth.

Choice is fundamental to the welfare of the human psyche. We don't want to go back to the middle ages! We're genetically programmed with a desire to choose. You have to let people choose.

Anyway, like you said Louise, it's despicable of governments to manipulate people in such a way. It's disgusting when religion is used to brainwash and manipulate the masses. It's a soft target, and it's especially effective when people don't really know why they believe what they do. Choice, critical thought, understanding! We have brains. How we acquired them is a whole other question, but I don't doubt for one second that we're supposed to use them.

It's really depressing that some people (meaning Mallory!) would be willing to fight WWII all over again...

Well, President Bush and Laura Mallory are very similar. They don't read, they aren't curious. They accept one thing as truth. They decide who they trust and they let those people think for them. President Bush doesn't read. He lets his advisors read, then tell him what they read, how they interpret it. If he has questions, he prays for an answer from God, and it is way too easy to simply 'decide' that God wants what he wants. It's easier than staying informed on his own steam. He is lazy. He is scary.

Laura Mallory is the same. Her pastor has decided that the HP series is evil, so that's what she believes. She has said that for her to read them would make her a 'hypocrite,' since she is trying to keep kids from reading them. She accepts someone else's truth as her own, because she is too intellectually incurious, too intellectually lazy, to think for herself.

But if she follows politics at all (and I'm sure either she, or the people who do her thinking for her, do, as politics is often used to push certain agendas), then she knows that the time is ripe right now to ban the HP series from public schools. But she better move fast, because if this election isn't stolen (like I believe the last two presidential elections were (long story)), then the tides will not be changing in her favor.

Absolutely right, Laurette, when you say that good morals are good morals, anyway. I mean that whatever religion you belong to, there are human values that are recognized as universal, among others, for example are non-violence, respect and defense of life and environment.
So, if I respect those values, and either if I'm christian, or pagan, or muslim, or atheist, I can quietly live door-to-door with other people.

Thinking with our own head it's something really difficult today. Again, school has got a big responsibility, because it very often doesn't allow children to develop autonomously ideas and opinions about the world we live in. The personal thought is something potentially dangerous and that's why it's not encouraged...

(I didn't receive the new messages...there's something not working...does it happen to anybody else?)

I don't know about the messages, Clara, but you and Laurette are right on in the morals thing!

Strangely though, I don't know if these fundamentalists can see that either--that a person can be moral without being a born-again Christian. I had a friend who converted, and after that, one day we were talking. She was doing her annoying preaching thing again, and I said, "Look. I'm a good wife and a good mom and a decent person, even if I'm not a Christian, OK?"

And she just looked at me and asked, "Why would you be?"

It was as if she thought that if I didn't have her God and Church to back me up I'd be just awash in moral depravity!

And that is the mentality--that the unwashed masses aren't capable of thinking for themselves. Because they aren't born-again Christians, they are obviously led by Satan. That's why Laura Mallory cannot see that what she is doing is invasive and wrong. She thinks she is protecting people who are vulnerable because they don't have her religious beliefs to strengthen them. She sees us as the ignorant ones! Ego, ego, ego....

I've dealt with people like this all my life, living in the midwest USA. They're everywhere. To me, it's refreshing to know Christians who actually seek for themselves, like the good people here who are Christians! I think I need to move, seriously.

I don't think you would be better elsewhere. The problem is, that you'd find mind-closed people, wherever you go.

The whole HP bashing thing happened here also, and I'd like to tell you how. In 2003, when Pope Ratzinger was still a Cardinal, Gabriele Kuby -who had written an essay about HP being Good or Evil- asked his opinion about the series: Although a Council from Vatican had already given its approval for the books, he answered: ""It is good that you enlighten us on matters relating to Harry Potter, for these are subtle temptations, which act imperceptibly and, for that reason, deeply, and subvert Christianity in the soul, before it can really grow properly." (here an article about this)
Instead, after a quick research, it seems that Orthodox church defined HP just "a tale" and Anglican church has recommended it for its great moral values!

So, as you see, opinions and judgments about our fav books are very different. But the three opinions above are all three given by christian churches. Add the evangelical one, and they're four.
Where's the trick? Who's speaking in the name of Christ? do they all believe in same Christ and in the same God? This really arouses my indignation, and I'm not christian!
Sometimes I feel like Christ is like a toy between a group of children, who are pulling it by a leg or an arm, saying "It's mine, no it's mine, I want to dress it like a baby, no, it's a doctor...". But what if the doll could talk?

Even if I'm not christian, I love and respect his wise, human and rebel figure, and probably most of his lessons... maybe more than many so-called christians do.

I will not enter into the religious aspect of this topic, but only in the social and psychological points. As the Harry Potter books themselves tell us, there is no better way to assure something will be done than to tell people they cannot do it.

It seems to me that by "banning" a book you only make it more appealing to the very people who might be converted to the belief you are trying to prohibit. The faithful and devout who are the only people who would listen to such a ban will not read the books anyway. It is the curious, the people of less firm belief, or those who subscribe to the "accepted" ideology but perhaps chaff at the bonds, who would look beyond the "accepted" books and find those on a banned list most appealing.

By banning the book they make it a "wicked" act to read something which is prohibited. This is not the middle ages when you could ban something then burn an offender at the stake. In today's world a ban on something is the greatest endorsement you could make. Better to never raise a point of controversy on a topic if you wish it to be ignored than to start a nationwide campaign to stamp it out. If you want to teach someone that something is wrong or immoral, you must explain to them what is wrong and immoral about it. To do so you must have sufficient faith in the strength of your beliefs to educate yourself on the topic. You cannot teach from a foundation of ignorance.

It would be better to make the series mandatory reading in sunday school and have a minister supervising and explaining each point that goes against Christian beliefs than to merely forbid the entire topic. Did they not learn the lesson of the Forbidden Fruit? The moral is not that Eve did what God forbid and mankind was cursed for it, the moral was that if you forbid something of someone it makes it desireable above all things. If God had said nothing of the tree, nothing would have come of it.

I dont remember what article it was, but this one guy said that. "The magic in Harry Potter does not relate to another supernatural world, so therefore it is not the magic that the Bible states is evil."

That definately wasn't word for word, but I thought that was really interesting. I'm so sick of ignorant people who think they are satanic, and teach the occult. Those people are sick and need to realise the real evil [MOD EDIT-Please check your Owl Waiting(PM Box)]. Thay need to worrie about abortion and rape, and murder, and other evil deeds like that. And what makes me so angry most of all, is that they don't read the books, and they just make up what they wanna think about the books and theres no changing their mind. They are mindless idiots(sorry im just really angry), and don't realise the true evil out there. Thay can't accept the truth because they refuse to because of objections that make absolutely no sense. I am a Christian myself, and I love the HP books and think they send good moral, and teach love and bravery and loyalty and friendship and other such traits.

I was so fuming after I read that also. Children are entitled to their own opinion and to have an imagination. Each chiled has their own opinion and should be able to read what they want.There is nothing wrong with Harry Potter and it has made so may children enjoy reading.I am a christian and I love Harry Potter, I also feel there is nothing bad about it if anything it has done good for us. That lady has her own opinion but I feel she does not need to make such drastic actions.

Who cares if you can't completely relate to the plot of Harry Potter? I don't. Its fiction, its fun to read. If they really eliminated all fiction stories that would be stupid.
Besides there is NOTHING in Harry Potter that is inappropriate.

I agree totally with you Harry Potter Fan. Are not all the books in school libraries fiction? What fun would it be for children or adults for that matter, if every book we read was all non-fiction. It would be very boring indeed.
Where I live at In Virginia (the Bible Belt as it is so often called). They will not sell anything Harry Potter (except some of his books, and they are usually hidden on the bookshelves) because people that are ignorant and narrow minded (like that Mallory woman) do not want their kids exposed to what they consider Satanic and evil. There is absolutely NOTHING inappropriate or evil in Harry Potter books. My kids read the books and have all of the movies. Why can;t people just get a clue and realize that Harry Potter books are all fun and make believe, better to build strong imaginations and charactor in children. It's absurd how people react to this it makes me ill.