Snapelover
Feb 22 2006, 10:31 PM
This is the place where all of you who have wonderful theories about that night, can come in and state your case.
So Many things happened and so many things are left unanswered. Here is where you can discuss things like:
Did RAB switch the Horcrux locket that night?Were other people allowed on the school grounds that night when Dumbledore lifted the wards on the grounds?An many other things. (Just make sure it doesn't cover too much on already existing topics 
It is inevitable that you will touch on existing topics, but try now to dwell on them. ie: who is RAB. 
)This should prove to be interesting and I hope that we don't get too far off the mark. But we thought it would be a great place to discuss these issues and then if you are posting in another thread, you can reference this thread in order to prove your point. See how that works?
Enjoy.
hp6
Feb 22 2006, 11:28 PM
wow first on both, record! well snapelover really deserves the credit, haha i believe when last we chatted we were discussing what dd's muttering of ancient languages was all about....
it is my belief that he was taking off the enchantment stopping anyone from flying into the grounds and he had removed just enough of it when they crossed the boundary and that is why the broom shuddered, my guess is that, if dd had not removed it they would have been sent flying way off their brooms but dd had removed enoguh for a quick shudder. Now i also have a question, people have been saying that the des knew he had taken off the wall spells, and that is why the headed for the gates, my question is how would they know? my guess is the spells kept you out, but if you were in you could leave and since no order members were stationed at the gate because they were fighting the des got out peacfully, well except snape, he had harry on his heels
Hey snapelover, if you see this i meant to ask you on the other thread but it slipped my mind, can we bring things from this thread to the RAB thread and vice-versa if the information is consistent with both?
peace yall
kirkstain
Feb 22 2006, 11:54 PM
interesting it is indeed, but i believe DD only removed the enchantments to enter then placed them back on, he would only not put them back on if the person coming to do the switch was coming from the outside or returning. I still believe the switch was made by the brutal faced DE, he seemed to just disappear after, no more mention of him after Harry stunned him, so I would imagine he used the invisibility cloak to go down to DDs body and make the switch. He wasnt with Snape and co when they left, so where was he?
Just the Droobles
Feb 22 2006, 11:59 PM
I think we should just start fresh on conversation and not really drag anything from the archived topic in here. It would help to not confuse anyone.
I think we all need to answer a few questions first, so we know where everyone stands. It might be helpful.
Switched Pre-cave or Post-cave?I believe it was done pre-cave. I don't believe there was a time frame where a switch could've been done. And it seemed like eveybody was pretty busy doing something else in that scene, so I can't really think of anyone who I would think would have been able to make the switch.
Were the Enchantments On, Off, or Partial?I believe they were completely active. I think Dumbledore wouldn't have risked the safety of everyone on the grounds, especially the students, and taken the enchantments off. I think he muttered somthing that would allow him to pass through, hence the bump Harry felt on his broom as they passed. If they had been taken completely off, Harry would not have felt anything.
I also believe that Dumbledore was not aware that he was going to die that night. I think that he had caught wind of Draco's thing with Voldemort, and Snape and DD had a talk about it. I think that DD asked Severus to be the one to kill him if it ever came down to it. I think DD would've looked out for the best of hs student, even if the student (Malfoy) had made a really terrible decision. I don't think DD wanted Malfoy to be labeled as a killer for the rest of his life, so he asked Snape to be the one to do it.
I guess that's all for now. I'll let that brew in this cauldron for a while.
kirkstain
Feb 23 2006, 12:03 AM
there was a time frame actually mentioned in my last post, there is no-one that we can rule out for the possible switch, but it does seem quite likely that the switch happened pre cave. The only reason why we think that it could have been the brutal faced man is because we know nothing about him, he is a mysterious character so he could turn into anybody for all we know. Maybe he is Rabastan seeing we know nothing about him either
El Barto
Feb 23 2006, 12:04 AM
Hey, you're joining my side kirkstain (brutal-faced death eater). Now I at least have two others...but I don't think he's Regulus anymore just ask JTD
OR I can tell you...what if the Black family tree is magical and it records the deaths...that would mean that Regulus really is dead....so the brutal-faced DE is someone else (but you can still read my fanfic if you want).
As for Dumbledore putting the enchantments on, I don't see when he had time. When they landed, he told Harry to go get Snape, then they heard footsteps...and the rest is history. Maybe when Snape surveyed the scene he realized that Dumbledore and Harry had come in on brooms. In fact, Gibbon placed the mark over the Astronomy Tower...why there? Someone said that he came back down because maybe he didn't the fact the he might face Dumbledore alone (I think it might have McGonnagal who said that). So they knew they were coming in on brooms then...or at least Draco did...because Gibbon could have just been trying to place the mark as high as he could...
If the DE's knew they were coming in on brooms, wouldn't they figure that there they had the chance to apparate away after Dumbledore died? Or were they caught up in the moment and let Snape lead them through the castle so some might be caught along the way...but that runs the risk of members of the Order and students dying...
I think I just introduced something that made it even more complicated...or not...
Just the Droobles
Feb 23 2006, 01:20 AM
| QUOTE |
| In fact, Gibbon placed the mark over the Astronomy Tower... |
Hope you don't mind me asking, but...who's Gibbon? That name doesn't even ring a bell. I didn't know we were told who put up the Dark Mark.
| QUOTE |
| As for Dumbledore putting the enchantments on, I don't see when he had time. |
Put them on? You mean put them back on after he and Harry came through, right? Just checking... I will contradict by again saying that I don't believe Dumbledore ever fully removed the enchantments. That's why they felt a bump. If they were gone, they would've just sailed clean through.
I don't think they knew they were coming on brooms, but they must've had a tip off. Oh, wait, wasn't Draco still in contact with Rosmerta at that point and she tipped them off about Harry and DD coming in on brooms? Correct me if I'm wrong... Obviously, no one saw them fly in or they probably would've thought they could Apparate or something. It would've been interesting to know what would happen to a person who tried to Apparate on the grounds.
Question: Since Dumbledore was the one who put all the enchantments on the school, after he died did they stay there or did they go away? Harry's Body-bind went away, so I was wondering if the school charms would do the same.
cesador
Feb 23 2006, 01:29 AM
| QUOTE (Just the Droobles @ Feb 22 2006, 05:59 PM) |
I also believe that Dumbledore was not aware that he was going to die that night. I think that he had caught wind of Draco's thing with Voldemort, and Snape and DD had a talk about it. I think that DD asked Severus to be the one to kill him if it ever came down to it. I think DD would've looked out for the best of hs student, even if the student (Malfoy) had made a really terrible decision. I don't think DD wanted Malfoy to be labeled as a killer for the rest of his life, so he asked Snape to be the one to do it.
|
i have to agree entirely though i think DD most likely had the feeling he was gonna die, but i still belive he knew of dracos problem and like i have stated in another thread he would much rather have something happen to him then anyone else (especially a child) and i do belive that snape and him had some prearranged agreement to help draco out of his mess.
hp6
Feb 23 2006, 02:14 AM
JTD
| QUOTE |
| Put them on? You mean put them back on after he and Harry came through, right? Just checking... I will contradict by again saying that I don't believe Dumbledore ever fully removed the enchantments. That's why they felt a bump. If they were gone, they would've just sailed clean through. |
yeh thats what i tried to say in my last post but you said it much better
Hmmm...
| QUOTE |
| Question: Since Dumbledore was the one who put all the enchantments on the school, after he died did they stay there or did they go away? Harry's Body-bind went away, so I was wondering if the school charms would do the same. |
Hmmm...
well we have to examples of canon here..
1) harrys bodybind curse is taken off
2) jk on her website says that the secret dies with the secret keeper (in response to what happens when the secret keeper dies) which means in this case the spell is left on the secret place, such as number 12 GP
so i think we have to try and figure out what happens to the enchantments, from those two sources...
peace
El Barto
Feb 23 2006, 03:35 AM
JTD, wasn't sure if you were asking me about Dumbledore putting the enchantments on...but yes, I meant putting them back on after landing on the tower. Gibbon was the one who put the mark up, but he was killed by the "big blond" death eater after he came out...but it was a mistake, he didn't do it on purpose...the blond was shooting everywhere.
sas1901
Feb 23 2006, 03:40 PM
I agree that DD and Snape must have had some sort of pre-arrangement that Snape would kill him to save Draco, because that is the kind of man DD was. I also believe that DD would not have risked the lives of the students by lifting the enchantments on the castle grounds, and that he only temporarily lifted them to allow himself and Harry through. The Deatheaters knew that they were arriving on brooms because of Madame Rosmerta *where they got the brooms* while she was under the Imperius Curse. I think that the Deatheaters thought the enchantments were still on the castle after DD was killed because they ran instead of apparating out... or maybe they just didn't know that DD was dead, and the enchantments were lifted. Just a thought.
lilly_P
Feb 23 2006, 10:08 PM
JTDHow can you say the enchantments, protection etc. was placed back on the castle? Dumbledore took them off to enter the grounds it dosen't say they were placed back on. If so then how did the DE get out of the school grounds? Unless Snape removed them as he had for Harry the night Harry was late to the start of school.
The thing is the DE must have known the enchantments were off because they ran to the school grounds to escape. Why didn't they escape back through the cabinet. A much quicker exit than running out of the school and onto the grounds and out the gates don't you think?
I think your right. I don't think DD knew he was going to die that night either. I also don't think that LV confided to Snape what Draco's mission was even though he let Narcissa and Bellatrix think he did. I think Snape was fishing around to find out while he was talking to Narcissa. He made the Vow and then later realized too late that the mission was for Draco to kill Dumbledore. Therefor Snape had no choice. Or that he really did know and it was planned with DD that the Vow had to be made. I think Snape was trying to find out from Draco of how he was going to kill DD but Draco wouldn't tell him so Snape had no idea how Draco was going to do it or when.
Snape didn't know the DE were in the school that night until (Flitwick or was it Sprout, told him. I think that Snape was trying to stop Draco from the killing but saw he had no choice but to go through with the Vow as to not blow his cover or as to not die himself.
1. Harry & DD leave the school. DD places extra protection in the school by having the corridors patrolled by the DA and the Order.
2. Harry and DD see Rosemerta and then appriate together to the sea.
3. Harry & DD arrive at the cave and do the deed.
4. Harry and DD return and meet Rosemerta who tells them the Dark mark has been cast over the Tower. The DE does this to get DD back into the school. While before this DD tells Harry he must see Snape.
5. Dumbledore and Harry fly onto the school grounds but not before DD takes the enchantments off.
6. Meanwhile Snape is suppose to be in his room asleep but Flitwick finds him in the classroom and Snape knocks him out.
7. Draco has confronted DD and DD is trying to get Malfoy to come to the other side so they can hide he and his mother.
8. The rest of the DE show up and Ferir wants to see what DD tastes like.
9. Other DE are stopped from killing DD. Draco must do it.
10. Snape bursts into the room, stops, gazes at DD, and then does the AK curse along with another curse that takes DD's body from the tower.
11. The AK curse leaves the body limbs at strange angles and DD has blood from the side of his mouth where the side of his lips twitched before. Perhaps from the posion that was in the basin that he drank. Perhaps that is what really killed DD.
12. Snape & Draco make a run for it on the grounds and we never see Snape or Draco leave the grounds. Perhaps they are still hiding somewhere on the grounds. 
hp6
Feb 23 2006, 10:26 PM
ok guys heres my thoughts
well i think dd took the flight spell of, just that and never put it back on, we arent hinted that he did?
lilly i think the blood in his mouth was for effect, and at the most just the fall, but the potion could have done it no doubt!
now if the potion killed dd then wouldnt snape be dead? because niether he or draco had 'done the deed' and that was what the vow was about? right or wrong?
peace
vulturemort
Feb 23 2006, 11:14 PM
Lilly,
I don't think that we needed to actually be told that the enchantments were put back on for it to have happened. How do we know that Dumbledore didn't simply provide an opening for them to pass through? We aren't told specifically what his mumbles did to the castle protection. I think that we have to base this on what we know of Dumbledore. He was willing to give his own life to protect one student and teacher (Malfoy and Snape). I doubt he would put all of the students at risk, especially while the castle was under attack.
If the death eaters knew that the enchantments were off, then they could have simply apparated off of the grounds. Couldn't they? Why would they go through all of the trouble of running to the gates? I think it is because Snape knows how to open the gates to get out. We were shown that he was able to open the gates when Harry was late arriving after the train thing with Malfoy. Perhaps that is why it was Snape, and not Hagrid that came to the gate. JKR wanted us to know that Snape was able to open the gates.
Finally, this may be a stupid question, but why were we interested in whether or not the enchantments were lifted in the first place. I know that it tied into the Snape is R.A.B. theory, but I can't remember how. Could you refresh my memory?
Crsdba
If the brutal faced death eater was responsible for the switch, how did he come out of the hex that Harry hit him with? Wouldn't he at least have been out for a bit? I suppose only JKR could say definitely how long he had to be out, but it seems like we didn't hear any more from him because he was unconcious. We didn't hear any more about Fenrir after Harry hexed him did we? I think there was a group of death eaters that had to have been captured or were killed that night.
I think you raise some very good questions about why they were in the tower and how the whole sequence of events worked out. We really should think about that a bit more. How much of that night went according to the death eaters plan and how much of it went according to Dumbledore's plan.
JTD
It isn't just Dumbledore that provided the enchantments. It says early in the book that Rufus Scrimgeour and the ministry had helped to increase the security measures at the school. I don't think that Dumbledore alone created the protective spells. That is definitely something that McGonical would have to deal with that night I think.
HP6
I also agree that Snape must have killed Dumbledore, not the potion, or else the unbreakable vow would have killed Snape. This is also solid evidence that Dumbledore is most definitely dead.
kirkstain
Feb 23 2006, 11:55 PM
can somebody please quote the exact wording of the unbreakable vow made so we can know exactly what Snape needed to do?
the enchantments is just each persons opinion and there is no fact in what we are saying, but i have to agree with vulturemort. If they knew the enchantments were off then they would have apparated. BUT they didnt, they went out the gates, and they di this because Snape knew how.
it never mentions what happens with the other death eaters i dont think, if im wrong please correct me. We dont know the whereabouts of the brutal faced one (BFDE) and fenrir. The curse doesnt hold for too long, BFDE would have been able to move soon after, and use the invisibility cloak if he saw it to get away to wherever undetected, whether it be to escape or make a switch. Harry doesnt go back to get the cloak, doesnt he? i dont believe theres a mention of the cloak after at all. They may have escaped through the cabinets, i dont think Snape went through there because he didnt know that was how the DEs came in, thats why he ran for the gate and Draco would have followed him
El Barto
Feb 24 2006, 01:52 AM
This is a little excerpt from the RAB thread that I wrote concerning the potion and the locket....
| QUOTE |
| The final trick being for whoever went to the cave after this would have to drink the potion again, actually get the locket and realize it was fake, then have to battle inferi to get the real...but as we know...Dumbledore and Harry didn't get the real...so thats an added bonus...Harry will have to go back to the cave a second time and live through the terror (that is if he realizes that the locket is still in the cave). |
That in my theory happened after Regulus and Orion went to the cave, then Regulus left when Orion died to write the note and get it into the locket (the potion made him an inferi very slowly), while he was there Voldemort went to th cave after sensing his Horcrux and did away with Orion and replaced the potion...which leads to what I quoted above about Dumbledore and Harry.
As for kirkstain's request:
This is only what Dumbledore said...
| QUOTE |
| I don't want...Don't make me...don't like...want to stop...No...I don't want to...I dont' want to...let me go...make it stop...make it stop. No, no, no, no, I can't, I can't, don't make me, I don't want to...It's all my fault, all my fault. Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again...Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, its my fault, hurt me instead...Please, please, please, no...not that, not that, I'll do anything...No more, please, no more...I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die! KILL ME! |
Guess it doesn't exactly fit my theory...but there you go
hp6
Feb 24 2006, 02:38 AM
vulturemort
| QUOTE |
| I don't think that we needed to actually be told that the enchantments were put back on for it to have happened. How do we know that Dumbledore didn't simply provide an opening for them to pass through? We aren't told specifically what his mumbles did to the castle protection. I think that we have to base this on what we know of Dumbledore. He was willing to give his own life to protect one student and teacher (Malfoy and Snape). I doubt he would put all of the students at risk, especially while the castle was under attack |
.
good point on the sacrafice for A student, that shows that he wouldnt open the defenses... completely
| QUOTE |
| Finally, this may be a stupid question, but why were we interested in whether or not the enchantments were lifted in the first place. I know that it tied into the Snape is R.A.B. theory, but I can't remember how. Could you refresh my memory? |
haha me neither that happens all the time too me
| QUOTE |
| I also agree that Snape must have killed Dumbledore, not the potion, or else the unbreakable vow would have killed Snape. This is also solid evidence that Dumbledore is most definitely dead. |
now i know im contradicting myself, but i still stand by my original statement, but does anyone know how soon you die after breaking an unbreakablevow?
ok thats all for now
peace-
El Barto
Feb 24 2006, 02:43 AM
I think I brought up the enchantment thing back in the RAB thread. Sorry if I wasn't the first...I brought it up to help explain the Snape-time situation...Some were having problems explaining how Snape went all the way back (if he is RAB), so I introduced it to explain how he could have gotten there in enough time...
my_erised
Feb 24 2006, 05:12 AM
ok so i am here to redeem myself for my last post. once again i am really sorry for what i said and how i said it i didnt mean to act like a mod or prefect. once again i am really sorry.
as for your request kirkstain here is the unbreakable vow
"certainly, Narcissa, I shall make the unbreakable vow" he said quietly. "perhaps your sister will concent to be our bonder?"
Bellatrix's mouth fell open. Sape lowered himself so that he was kneeling oposite Narsissa. Beneath Bellatrix's asstonished gaze they grasped right hands.
"You will need your wand, Bellatrix," said Snape coldly.
she drew it looking astonished. "And you will need to move a little closer."he said.
She stepped forward so that she stood over them , and placed the tip of her wand on their linked hands.
"Will you, Serverous, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lords wishes?"
"I will"said Snape.
A thin toungeof brilliant flame issued from the want and wound itsway around their hands like a red-hot wire.
"And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?"
"I will" said snape.
a second tounge of flame shot from the want and interlinked with the first, making a fine, glowing chain.
"And, should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa(snaped hand twitched within hers but he did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Drak Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"
There was a moments's silence. Bellatrix watched, her want upon their clasped hands, her eyes wide.
"I will" said snape.
Bellatrix's astounded face glowed red in the blaze of a third tounge of flame, witch shot from the wand, twisted with the others, and bound itself thickly around thier clasped hands, like a rope a firey snake.
there you go everyone hope you put this to good use.
kirkstain
Feb 24 2006, 04:12 PM
thanks my_erised. well the unbreakable vow shows that Snape had to kill DD if Draco wasnt to do it, as that was Draco's mission. This does reinforce the point that DD is dead, unless there could be a loophole or something. Im not sure if Snape knew at the time what the deed was, but if he knew or found out by the time it came to the night where DD died, then it was what he had to do to stay alive.
I presume that you die straight after breaking an unbreakable vow, it wouldnt make sense to continue living for a bit then to die.
lilly_P
Feb 24 2006, 04:21 PM
Vulturemort"Dumbledore muttering in some strange language again. Dumbledore was undoing the enchantments he himself had set
around the castle so they could enter at apeed as Harry felt his broom shudder when they flew
over the boundry wall into the grounds"
This was not simply an opening for them to enter. Harry tells us specifically that the language undid the enchantments.
To me that shows that the enchantments were taken off all around the castle walls. There is no cannon that states that they were put back on and I was left with the impression that they were off becasue everything was happening so quickly.
The question is - Why was Snape, Draco and the DE on the grounds in the first place. They could have escaped through the cabinet the same way they came in. We don't know if the Room of Requirement was blocked by the Order, do we?
It places Snape on the grounds in order to do the switch. He dosen't escape through the cabinet. JK states twice about where Snape was.
Snape had an immence head start. "Harry pelted toward a shortcut, hoping to overtake the brother and sister and close in on Snape and Malfoy,
who must surley have reached the grounds by now hp6Yes, I would agree that you are right about Snape killing DD or else he would have died if he didn't. BUT...Dumbledore was already dying from the posion from the basin (I think) and Snape just finished him off??? I don't think that JK put the blood coming from Dumbledores mouth just for effect. It is stated for a reson.
ModsI have to say that having this other thread is too confusing. We should stick with the RAB thread becasuse this all plays into Snape being RAB. Maybe it should be called Snape being RAB how was the switch made or something.
kirkstain
Feb 24 2006, 04:31 PM
well not everybody thinks snape is RAB and calling the thread that would limit us to talk about other possibilities on who RAB is.
i mentioned a few posts ago why i think they went out the gates rather than the cabinet, i think it was because Snape was taking the lead and the others were following, and snape didnt know about the cabinets at all because Draco wouldnt tell him, so he ran for the gates.
what i havent heard recently is a discussion about what DD saw when he drank the potion. my belief is that it was a memory he was drinking, and the memory of Snape watching the potters die!\what does anyone else think?
hp6
Feb 25 2006, 12:30 AM
[/I]ok on the uvow heres a problem i have seen:
he only does one of the tasks!
tasks:
1)"Will you, Serverous, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lords wishes?"
well isnt his wish to have draco killed? snape didnt kill draco
2)"And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?"
was draco in potential harm
3)"And, should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa(snaped hand twitched within hers but he did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Drak Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"
ok draco looked doomed so snape killed dd
| QUOTE |
Mods
I have to say that having this other thread is too confusing. We should stick with the RAB thread becasuse this all plays into Snape being RAB. Maybe it should be called Snape being RAB how was the switch made or something. |
the other thread was confusing, but this... this is riddikulus
kirkstan
| QUOTE |
| what i havent heard recently is a discussion about what DD saw when he drank the potion. my belief is that it was a memory he was drinking, and the memory of Snape watching the potters die!\what does anyone else think? |
so the potion was the memory? how did lv get a hold of the memory to put in the basin?
paece
Aphrodite
Feb 25 2006, 01:57 AM
| QUOTE (hp6) |
| QUOTE (lilly_P) |
Mods
I have to say that having this other thread is too confusing. We should stick with the RAB thread becasuse this all plays into Snape being RAB. Maybe it should be called Snape being RAB how was the switch made or something. |
the other thread was confusing, but this... this is riddikulus |
Well, what do you long-time posters suggest we do? This thread (The Last Night of Dumbledore) was discussed among us and it seemed like a pretty good plan to keep everyone out of each other's hair,
especially since youse people gave us the idea in ze first place back in R.A.B. v.6...
| QUOTE (kirkstain) |
| well not everybody thinks snape is RAB and calling the thread that would limit us to talk about other possibilities on who RAB is. |
Apparently someone disagrees Lilly, gives reason for a nice healthy debate I think.
Any feedback you want to give on this debatable problem Lilly pointed out holler at us, we'd like to know.
El Barto
Feb 25 2006, 02:07 AM
About this new thread, you have to think about new people coming in and trying to add their theories. They come to the RAB thread and suddenly see all this stuff about the cave, the enchantments on the castle, etc. which potentially are relevant to who RAB is, but it doesn't help those new people. Strictly discussing who RAB is in other thread without going into much detail is hard as well, but it gets rid of all the confusion....or sparks more...depends on the person I guess.
hp6, I think Voldemort wanted Dumbledore's death but knew he would fail...as did Narcissa...So Voldemort had the thought of Draco dying in a battle with him, or at least getting hurt somehow. Therefore, I for one think Draco was in harm, and yes it led to Snape doing the deed for Draco and himself...at least thats how I interpreted it...
I don't think Dumbledore saw anything...he could have...but I don't think he did. I think he was saying what the last person said who had been in the cave (Regulus with his father Orion), OR it was something different...I think I've crossed over to the "Pre-Cave" side...(first post in here).
So I think it was all a set up by Voldemort, punishing the person who came after Regulus and Orion even worse. Orion is on the Black Family Tree, he's Regulus's and Sirius's dad who died at the same time...but thats for the other thread
hp6
Feb 25 2006, 02:17 AM
mods
yeh i guess from a new persons stand point this is much easier, and i understand, my last comment on this was the riddiculous thing, its not bad, well not yet atleast, once people start combining the theories in the 2 threads it may get confusing, but until then no more complaints, promise
ohh crsdba isee what you mean, well i think i do... ok i lied i dont have a clue i think im just missing, could you explain your thoughts on what the potion is and does for me? thanks, and welcome to the darkside! hah always wanted to say that...
peace
El Barto
Feb 25 2006, 02:44 AM
At first, at least in the past few days, I've thought that the potion records someone who was at the cave. So should they drink it, and become an inferi and go into the lake, that Dumbledore would know who took it and look for that specific inferi. However, I looked at what Dumbledore was saying and realized it couldn't have been that.
Why?
-the person is watching someone being tortured (I think)
-this person wants it to stop
-goes as far as saying to kill him, maybe the torturor (sp?) was going to kill the person or persons he was torturing.
-suddenly the person doing the torture switches to another tactic
-then the person watches reacts by insisting that he wants to die
(maybe he/she began to get tortured too).
However, it can be Regulus (in my opinion and theory) if it was Orion Black was being tortured in front of Regulus by none other than Voldemort. Voldemort then killed Orion, and replaced the potion, put the Horcrux on Orion's dead-to-be-inferi body which remains in the lake today...why? If Orion and Regulus could get in...then potentially anyone willing would have done so too...Voldemort had underestimated everything...so to punish someone even more than Orion and Regulus, he would make it necessary to battle inferi...or...he had knowledge of the fake which he deliberatly placed in the basin, so the next wizards/witches to come along would possible escape the cave and either come back and battle the inferi or presume that it was already destroyed and not even go look for it (which works for Voldemort's benefit). I know it traversed who RAB is, but it leads to what happened with Dumbledore.
**And the note was, in my opinion again, which after Regulus found out what it was...went home while his father was undergoing the sideaffects of the potion...wrote the note and placed it in the locket...returned to find Voldemort torturing his father.**
*Voldemort was there because he sensed someone tampering with his Horcrux...maybe Dumbledore was wrong about him being so immeresed in evil that he can't sense them. Of course, this sensory could have been damaged when he was "reborn" in the fourth book, that would mean that he didn't sense his ring being destroyed.*
Dumbledore drinks this potion...but why did he say all those things? Why didn't Voldemort just make him think about the torture instead of saying it out loud? Maybe he thought another pair would show up and help the drinker...too caught up in fighting with inferi, they'd take the fake and high tail it out of there without realizing until much later...which happened with Harry and Dumbledore unfortunatley. Oh, and it made the drinker thirsty to allow the other to go to the lake which made the inferi react the way they did.
marire
Feb 25 2006, 06:53 AM
I think this should stay up. Isn't the idea to talk here about what happened in the night when DD past away? So although RAB is important in here too, it's not merely about him.
| QUOTE (Just the Droobles) |
| I don't think they knew they were coming on brooms, but they must've had a tip off. Oh, wait, wasn't Draco still in contact with Rosmerta at that point and she tipped them off about Harry and DD coming in on brooms? |
That has bothered me a long time. At least in this thread no one has said was Draco waiting Harry and DD in there? was it because he knew they were there soon, or was his job just to sit there whole time and wait them? I think he just needed to sit there and wait them. He didn't knew that Harry was there with DD, and I see no reason why Madame Rosmerta wouldn't have told that too. But if Rosmerta didn't tip him of, why is that? She was apparently under Imperius curse and it seems weird that DE wouldn't have orderd him to tell when DD came back and does he have any companions. And if imperius curse was working, why she in first place told DD about the Dark Mark at Astronomy tower?
kirkstain
Feb 25 2006, 11:27 AM
interesting idea crsdba.
i think though like i said before, that the basin is a pensieve. I if can remember correctly, it is described similarly to the way a pensive was described. So lets say it is one, then the potion inside is a memory. I believe this memory would be that of severus snape watching the potters get tortured. When JKR was asked if there was anyone else present at godric's hollow the night the potters were killed, she answered "no comment", so there is the possibility that at least one other person was present. Everybody suspects that Snape loved Lily, so after telling vl the prophecy, he regretted it majorly because it involved Lily, who he was in love with. So he went there to try to persuade vl i think to stop him, and i even think that he may have had something to do with harry surviving the ak. maybe this is why DD trusted him so much. Ideas on this?
hp6
Feb 25 2006, 02:58 PM
ok lets say that the basin is a penisive, and the memory is of snape, at the hollow, well how did vl get the memory? Im thinking he wouldnt use one of his own, and i dont think snape would give it to him, so how did the memory get in the basin, and wasnt the liquid green, wel i thought thoughts, were clear?
peace
kirkstain
Feb 25 2006, 04:34 PM
good point hp6
to be honest i dont have a clue why it would be green, maybe to symbolise something dark as that is the dark sides colour, ak is green, dark mark is green, etc.
and i would imagine that the memory would be one of snape's, as DD seemed to be experiencing it. VL would have got it by using occlumency i would say, snape was very young at this point, and wouldnt be no where near as good an occlumens as he is now, and vl is one of the greatest legilimens, so i would say he extracted it easily
Just the Droobles
Feb 25 2006, 05:41 PM
Here's the direct excerpt from the scene where they fly in.
| QUOTE |
| ...Harry heard over the whistling of the night air in his ears, Dumbledore muttering in some strange language again. He thought he understood why as he felt his broom shudder when the flew over the boundary wall into the grounds: Dumbledore was undoing the enchantments he himself had set around the castle so they could enter at speed. |
Well, it says there, Harry thought, he didn't know for sure, because he didn't know what DD was saying. He guessed. And, it says DD removed them so they could get in at speed. Not so they could enter as they wished. If they had been taken off completely, they would not have felt a shudder. Dumbledore would NEVER risk the lives of his students so he could enter. That's how I think that.
| QUOTE |
"And, should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa(snaped hand twitched within hers but he did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"
There was a moments's silence. Bellatrix watched, her want upon their clasped hands, her eyes wide.
"I will" said snape.
Bellatrix's astounded face glowed red... |
The most important thing in this is the pause Snape has. To me, it seems he realizes he is going to have to kill DD should Draco fail. He may not be to comfortable with that. Perhaps he was looking out for Draco as well by doing this so he wouldn't have to. Plus it says that Bellatrix looked astounded. Was she surprised Snape vowed to do that? Or was it just something else?
Interesting thought abuot the liquid being from a pensieve, but the color doesn't match. The pensieve liquid is silvery, the Potion was not. Plus, once you stick your hand or something in the Pesieve liquid it reacts. Harry stuck the cup in the Potion and it did nothing. I don't think the Potion is pensieve liquid, but mayeb it has an effect like a dementor that makes you relive your own memories or perhaps someone else's. Just a thought.
hp6
Feb 25 2006, 08:41 PM
yeh the only thing i can think of about the potion is that i makes you relive your worst memory, or the worst dream youve ever had, or a worst case senario, idk maybe it is made with dementor blood or something
I dont think it is a memory, or that it makes you see somene elses, id say its the oppostite of the Mirror of Erised.
PEACE
my_erised
Feb 25 2006, 09:34 PM
legimency legimency legimency
no one has brought that in here. we know that snape and voldemort are very highly trained legimences(SP) does anyone else in here thing that mabey voldemort used legimence to get the memory for the pensieve in the cave. but my question is can you against someones will remove their memory and place it into a pensieve. like if some how the memory of lily and jamees death was tapped into via legimency could you preserve it and put it into a pensieve.
El Barto
Feb 25 2006, 10:14 PM
interesting point my_erised. If one were to use legilimency on someone to see their memory, would it then become the person's memory who had just use legilimency? I think I asked this in another thread a long time ago...and it can go on forever...like Harry entered Slughorn's memory, so now it was his memory...but of a bad one...which would make his memory untampered when the one he enter was....
and the universe collapses...it gets confusing...just like time travel
So yes, I think it is possibe that Voldemort did that to someone to get their memory...which then became his, which he placed in the basin. Theres many scenarios about the basin, so this is just one...don't get me wrong on that
Capricorn
Feb 25 2006, 10:42 PM
I'm very interested in this thread, but like others I find it hard to follow everything. I don't want to complain or anything, but to make a valuable contribution one has to read and ponder almost every post.
Each of them is written slightly from a different angle as everybody thinks differently, and then there are very complex theories that are all highly academic.
Sorry, I'm rambling, but I'm majorly confused. I like that it's complex and technical, but isn't there a way to split the thread up into slightly narrower categories? Pre-cave/Post-cave, Snape's movements, Dumbledore's masterplan, Who is RAB etc.
Even if this split is not extremely strict, but more of a guideline, it would be easier to follow and contribute. Hope I didn't sound too much like a moaner!
Just the Droobles
Feb 26 2006, 12:03 AM
Actually,
Capricorn, this is actually a split of a previous thread so that the old one wouldn't be so jumbly. If you'd like, You could jump in, and, hopefully, if you are confused on anything someone or myself would help you to understand.
I didn't think you could use legilimency to get another person's memory. I thought it was just a thought stealer. Am I wrong? I thought Harry had been learning Occlumency so Voldemort could not
read his mind with Legilimency. Maybe you could get memories from thoughts, but I'm not sure you can pull entire memories like the ones in a Pensieve.
Maybe the Potion was just designed to make you go crazy or something and it made you hallucinate or change personalities or something. Because after Harry made DD snap out if it, his persona completely changed. Course, I don't think that was one of DD's memories because I can't really see him rolling over and pounding his fists on the ground and whining and what not.
So...
kirkstain
Feb 26 2006, 12:19 AM
ok, lets say the potion makes you relive your own worst memory, or the worst thing you have ever seen from the perspective of the person suffering it.
so how about snape showing DD the memory of him at the potters, to prove that he is actually good and on the side of the order. That would make DD believe that he is good, and he suffered it when drinking the potion from snape's point of view
Capricorn
Feb 26 2006, 12:31 AM
OK, so here goes! I think the potion is, like DD says, merely designed to keep the drinker from finishing it and getting to the Horcrux. How it does that doesn't seem to me to matter really, but I might be missing something. The significance of the legilimency maybe...
Anyway, what I find interesting is how RAB could have managed to succeed in getting the horcrux without Voldemort finding out, never mind how he did it. I suppose this makes me a pre-caver? I don't know, but I believe the horcrux DD and H retrieved was the fake.
But to me the pressing mysteries (if a mystery could be called that) is:
1) How did RAB find out about the horcrux in the cave? I don't think many Death-Eaters know where they are, because I doubt that Voldemort would tell them the exact locations of bits of his soul.
2) Could he have found out more and told someone who could help Harry? Or at least left clues? Otherwise I don't see Harry figuring out all the horcruxes on his own, even with Hermione's help.
Anyway, I never got the feeling Regulus was a high profile Death-Eater with all the inside info, while I do believe he is RAB. This hole in the story could turn out important, since Harry needs to do the same thing - find out about the horcruxes. Harry might follow a similar path in his search or something...
my_erised
Feb 26 2006, 01:02 AM
ok ok so i am totally going to switch this conversation up ....well at least try
what do all of you think of the end of flight of the prince. when harry was chasing snape to the gates. he was saying things like ( i dont have my book to quote it but) you have to concentrate, learn to close your mouth, use your mind ect....
do you guys think that he was egging him on or actually giving him advice.
i think i read something of this nature a long long time ago. like one month after the release of hbp. but like i said that was a really long time ago and i think that is fits into this topic of this thread it happened on the night dumbledore died.so.......do you guys think that snape was giving advice or taunting harry?
Just the Droobles
Feb 26 2006, 03:06 AM
Capricorn
| QUOTE |
| Anyway, what I find interesting is how RAB could have managed to succeed in getting the horcrux without Voldemort finding out, never mind how he did it. I suppose this makes me a pre-caver? |
yes, That would make you a pre-caver.
I have always wondered how Voldemort keeps in touch with his hrocruxes. Can he feel when part of his soul is being destroyed? Does he think they are still a secret?
1) How did RAB find out about the horcrux in the cave? Not real sure about that one either, but my guess would be is that a snoopy Regulus overheard a conversation between Voldemort and someone else. But I really don't know who Voldemort would want to share that with. He's so independent, I don't even think he would trust Snape. And if Snape is using Occlumency against him, that gives Voldemort an even better reason not to trust Snape.
2) Could he have found out more and told someone who could help Harry? Or at least left clues? I'm not sure Regulus did, as he was only 18 when he died. I'm sure he was killed shortly after his trip to the cave, so it probably would've given him very little time to leave any clues or anything. I've never thought Regulus was very high up either. Again, he was only 18, and that's a bit young to be really high up. It even said he tried to back out. This is sort of dwelling a bit too much on RAB though, and if you want, you could move over to that thread, Capricorn.
my_erised
| QUOTE |
| "Blocked again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" sneered Snape, ..... |
That's the direct quote from the book.
Seeing as I hate Snape almost as much as Harry (And to think I felt sorry for him after what James and Sirius did to him!
) it is hard for me to say. I think it may be a mixture of the two. Snape had become so frustrated with Harry during Occlumency, so he could've been making fun/egging on in that aspect. However, it does seem peculiar that Snape would give him advice. Maybe this will all turn up in the last reel some where and that will be how Harry defeats Voldemort. He learns Occlumency (from who now?), Snape is with Voldemort, Harry defeats Voldemort because Snape (the trusted Death Eater!) gave him advice! Therefore, Snape would be ultimately responsible for Voldemort's death. I think that'd be a good ending...
~Droob
my_erised
Feb 26 2006, 05:48 AM
hey thanks a lot droobles. i was to lazy to get my book.
i am not sure that Snape is with voldemort. if it is true that dumbledore asked Snape to kill him then.....he wasnt acting on voldemorts orders he was working on dumbledores
also the unbreakable vow kind of put snape in a position. if he didnt kill Dumbledore then he would die. and we all know that snape would never let himself die like that.
see i think that snape is one of the most underestimated characters is the book (neville to) he has th ehardst job out of all of them. he has to keep Voldemort thinking he is on the "Dark side". while staying true to dumbledore. i dont think he gets enough credit.
mabey snape was offering harry advice the only way he could at the time.
SiriusB1214
Feb 26 2006, 08:35 AM
| QUOTE (Capricorn @ Feb 25 2006, 06:31 PM) |
...
Anyway, what I find interesting is how RAB could have managed to succeed in getting the horcrux without Voldemort finding out, never mind how he did it.
...
1) How did RAB find out about the horcrux in the cave? I don't think many Death-Eaters know where they are, because I doubt that Voldemort would tell them the exact locations of bits of his soul.
2) Could he have found out more and told someone who could help Harry? Or at least left clues? Otherwise I don't see Harry figuring out all the horcruxes on his own, even with Hermione's help.
Anyway, I never got the feeling Regulus was a high profile Death-Eater with all the inside info, while I do believe he is RAB. This hole in the story could turn out important, since Harry needs to do the same thing - find out about the horcruxes. Harry might follow a similar path in his search or something... |
Here's how I see it.
Almost all of what we know about Regulus, comes from Sirius Black. Sirius' judgements about Regulus are highly emotional, and may not be accurate. Also, please give some thought to what Voldemort intended to have done with his horcruxes after his [death(s)].
1. RAB was a more advanced wizzard than Sirius gives him credit for being, and he was closer to Voldemort than Sirius knew. "How did RAB find out about the horcrux in the cave?" Answer: Voldemort told him, and gave him instructions on how to retrieve it. Why? Because Regulus had been entrusted with the task of bringing Voldemort back to corporeality, using that horcrux, in the event that Voldemort's body was destroyed.
How was RAB supposed to get the horcrux back? Simple. Imperius a muggle, bring him to the cave, make him drink the potion and die, grab the locket, and turn the body into an iferri to add to the guard in the lake. Since Dumbledore (or Aurors) would not murder an innocent person to get the locket, Voldemort must have thought it was safe, except from a treacherous Death Eater.
I think it was an essential part of VL's plan, that selected Death Eaters know the locations of some horcruxes, because a wizzard has to perform certain acts using the horcrux to restore VL to his body.
2. Given the story of Pettigrew, I think it is likely that RAB is still alive, and in hiding. He may come forward to give Harry some more clues.
This would make RAB at least as important a Death Eater as Pettigrew, likely more so. But, he would not have to be part of the inner circle to know where one horcrux was hidden. Voldemort probably entrusted each Death Eater with the location of one Horcrux, and instructions on what to do with it, but no-one knew the locations of all of them. That way, none of his followers could destroy all of them.
Look what Pettigrew had to go through to bring Voldemort back.
Lucious Malfoy probably knew the diary was a horcrux, and may have been instructed to give it to Draco to read, and be possessed by VL's soul, but instead he gave it to a strong underage witch a year younger than his son, Ginny. He might have been instructed to give it to any strong, pureblood, underage witch, but I think he was supposed to sacrifice his son.
The necessity for such awful sacrifices to use a horcrux for restoration, may be the reason VL was not brought back sooner.
How did Dumbledore find out about the locket in the cave? Possibly Snape was told about it, since Voldemort believed RAB to be dead, and that that Horcrux needed a new keeper.
Finding the other Horcruxes has been one of the most dangerous parts of Snape's mission, spying on the Death Eaters. To be too curious about them would lead swiftly to capture and execution...
Capricorn
Feb 26 2006, 09:30 AM
I think it says in HBP at the end that Lucius didn't know that the diary was a horcrux, and he only knew it would open the Chamber of Secrets. Otherwise he wouldn't have given it to Ginny, who was right under Dumbledore's nose.
I'm sure the D-E's know about the horcruxes, ("You know my goal, to conquer death" - GoF, in the graveyard), but it seems very casual of him to make it generally known where bits of his soul are.
In Spinner's End Narcissa says that Snape is "the Dark Lord's favourite, his trusted advisor". Then the first one to know where the horcruxes are would be Snape. Assuming he's good, why hasn't told Harry or Dumbledore? I honestly think he (and no-one else ) is supposed to know. This makes RAB discovery all the more interesting.
And about Snape's 'advice'- I'm sure that it is a last desperate attempt to help Harry. If he were truly on Voldemort's side he wouldn't waste his time advising Harry after Dumbledore's dead.
kirkstain
Feb 26 2006, 05:33 PM
responding to the idea that regulus was entrusted with a horcrux, if that was so, then why did it say on the note "it was i who discovered your secret" and so on. He said discovered, so he found out somehow.
well we know that snape had to kill DD whatever, it wouldnt make a difference what side he was on. He may have been following DDs orders but still working for vl
hp6
Feb 26 2006, 08:23 PM
| QUOTE |
| This would make RAB at least as important a Death Eater as Pettigrew, likely more so. But, he would not have to be part of the inner circle to know where one horcrux was hidden. Voldemort probably entrusted each Death Eater with the location of one Horcrux, and instructions on what to do with it, but no-one knew the locations of all of them. That way, none of his followers could destroy all of them. |
ok i like this theory, heres why:
2 death eaters possibly have been trusted with vls horcrxes
1)Malfoy- diary
2)bella lestrange- remember in the 2nd chapter of HBP "He trusted me with his most prized, most precious" something like that, well i think she was talking about a horcrux there, can someone get the exact quote for me please!
ok and id like to draw your attention to what a horcrux is:
a spit soul... i dont think voldemort can feel the horcruxes, because they are seperated.
peace
Just the Droobles
Feb 26 2006, 08:30 PM
Good point kirkstain. If RAB had been sent to retrieve the horcrux himself, he would not have left A note saying he found out and he hopes that Voldemort would be mortal and all that.
Another point here: HBP. American hardback, pages 405-406
| QUOTE |
(Hagrid)"I mean, it's always bin a bit of a risk sendin' a kid ter Howarts, hasn' it? Yer expect accidents, don't yeh, with hundreds of underage wizards all locked up tergether, but attempted murder, th's diff'rent. 'S'no wonder Dumbledore's angry with Sn---"
[...]
(Hagrid)"I overheard 'em talking--well, arguin'.[...] but it was a--well, a heated discussion an' it wasn' easy ter block out."
(Hagrid)"I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much for granted an' maybe he--Snape--didn' wan' ter do it anymore--"
"I dunno, Harry, it sounded like Snape was feelin' a bit overworked, th's all--anyway, Dumbledore tol him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it. [...] An' then he said summat abou' Snape makin' investigations in his House, in Slytherin..." |
The point here is that Snape seemed like he was tired of what Dumbledore was asking him to do. They were already having a fall out. If Snape had been willing to do everything Dumbledore would've liked, he wouldn't have been "overworked." To me, it seems that Snape and DD's ties have already fallen apart, their trust is no longer strong. Snape is being a coward and is moving more closely to the Dark Lord. Course I'm not real sure what Snape wanted to stop doing at this point, but it still shows that he is backing out of Dumbledore's orders. Perhaps to suit his job for Voldemort?
my_erised
Feb 26 2006, 08:30 PM
| QUOTE (kirkstain @ Feb 26 2006, 12:33 PM) |
| He may have been following DDs orders but still working for vl |
awesome point kirkstain, i never thought of it like that.
(give your self a pat on the back from me.
mabey it was voldemorts order to kill dumbledore, mabey it was the unbreakable vow, mabey it was dumbledores orders for snape to kill him.
there are so many mabyes. i cant wait for the next book to come out.
personally......i think that snape and dumbledore had prior arangements that went something like"if it comes down to it you kill me" dumbledore knew about dracos plans the whole time. mabey not the whole thing but he knew that draco was trying to kill him. i can see dumbledore saying to snape, dont let draco screw up his life.
kirkstain
Feb 26 2006, 09:02 PM
hang on, does the quote that bella say say that he trusted or trusts? because if she says trusted that implies that he did trust her or something happened to what she was trusted with.
i like the idea about each DE being trusted with a horcrux, but wouldnt that mean that they would keep it on them or near them? why would someone put it in a cave and hide it there rather than keeping it on them? i would imagine that vl set up the cave himself
hp6
Feb 26 2006, 11:34 PM
kirk
| QUOTE |
| i like the idea about each DE being trusted with a horcrux, but wouldnt that mean that they would keep it on them or near them? why would someone put it in a cave and hide it there rather than keeping it on them? i would imagine that vl set up the cave himself |
well my guess is that he only gave a horcrux to a fewm, and the rest he hid this is what i think is going on so far
1) he hides the ring in the guant house
2) malfoy gets the diary
3) bella gets a horcrux
4) he hides the locket in the cave