As usual, keep it civil otherwise the IS will give ya a poking
Full Version: Suicide And Euthanasia
How do you feel about these issues? They're quite topical at the moment, especially in the UK right now. You don't have to stick religiously to these particular issues - for example, withdrawing of treatment in terminal cases may not be strictly considered as euthanasia, so can simply not doing anything to help come under the same umbrella? Is that okay or should we preserve life at all costs?
As usual, keep it civil otherwise the IS will give ya a poking
As usual, keep it civil otherwise the IS will give ya a poking
I thought euthanasia mainly was reserved just for terminal cases. Jack Kevorkian is a well known American doctor who has assisted many people in dying. All of which were purportedly terminal cases.
Personally, I don't see what people have against euthanasia? It seems to me that many people base these kind of feelings from a religious origin.
Many people say things like, "It goes against God's will". But why does it go against God? Only the patient is suffering. It's their choice. God gave us free will, so don't we have the right how to end our lives just as we have the ability to choose how to live our lives?
Personally, I don't see what people have against euthanasia? It seems to me that many people base these kind of feelings from a religious origin.
Many people say things like, "It goes against God's will". But why does it go against God? Only the patient is suffering. It's their choice. God gave us free will, so don't we have the right how to end our lives just as we have the ability to choose how to live our lives?
Someone I really respect told me once, short before she passed, that she interprets the phrase 'everyone has his/her on cross to carry' in a different way. She said, she thinks of her cross as a bridge, which is growing over a wide river -- the cross grows a little bit with every day one spends on earth, with every movement, with every acion you take. If it is long enough, one can get on the other side of the river, which may be the place others call heaven, paradise, nirvana etc. So she thought of eutanasia as a method which won't let one's cross grow long enough. Yeah, this is, as Midnight has pointed out, a (semi-)religious point of view.
Have you seen 'My Life Without Me'? I think it shows how dying can be used as your last chance to try things in your life. (By the way, it's a great film.)
Anyways, I also understand people who apply for eutanasia. I can imagine situations in which life is seemingly nothing more than a struggle, nothing else than longing for death. But can we really decide when this time has come? Is there a line somewhere, at which you can say that a patient with symptoms like that deserves really eutanasia? No, I don't think so. Moreover, I think this line is different for everyone.
Besides, I also think it is too easy to get used to the thought that there is a chance to die quickly, legally, and I'm afraid more and more people with less serious problems would apply for the chance to die legally.
So basically I think I'm someone who is basically against euthanasia.
Have you seen 'My Life Without Me'? I think it shows how dying can be used as your last chance to try things in your life. (By the way, it's a great film.)
Anyways, I also understand people who apply for eutanasia. I can imagine situations in which life is seemingly nothing more than a struggle, nothing else than longing for death. But can we really decide when this time has come? Is there a line somewhere, at which you can say that a patient with symptoms like that deserves really eutanasia? No, I don't think so. Moreover, I think this line is different for everyone.
Besides, I also think it is too easy to get used to the thought that there is a chance to die quickly, legally, and I'm afraid more and more people with less serious problems would apply for the chance to die legally.
So basically I think I'm someone who is basically against euthanasia.
| QUOTE |
| and I'm afraid more and more people with less serious problems would apply for the chance to die legally |
That is my problem too. If to choose death is seen as an acceptable option in some circumstances, it will be seen as acceptable in other less 'dramatic' instances too. The requirements will be lowered again and again as people grow used to the idea.
There is already a growing problem with teenage suicide in Australia. Imagine how much worse it will get if people start accepting that to die is a socially acceptable 'way out' for some problems.
I sympathise with those terminally ill people suffering unimaginably, especially since most have lived their lives and are wise enough to make the choice, but ask one of them what they think about encouraging teenagers to suicide and I bet they agree that it was wrong. Unfortunately, if euthanasia is adopted as a common, legal procedure, I believe that it will have this effect (not immediately, but in the long run).
| QUOTE (bajab @ Mar 5 2006, 09:34 AM) |
| There is already a growing problem with teenage suicide in Australia. Imagine how much worse it will get if people start accepting that to die is a socially acceptable 'way out' for some problems. |
You've got a point there, mate. I believe that some teens see suicide as a 'way out,' as you put it. An outlet, the easy way to fix the problem, thinking 'The only way to fix this is to end my own life'.
What is going to happen when people all over start seeing suicide as a way to fix problems? It'll become a more common solution among teens and adults alike. As you said, the standards will sink lower and lower with each death. That isn't something that's going to better our future, in the government and crime scenes and whatnot.
I agree with Euthanasia. I do believe that if a person wants to die, then they should be allowed to. If a person is in so much pain and has no life, than isn't it the cruel option to force them to live? I don't think it's fair personally.
I remember in the UK a woman, paralized from the neck down was pleading for euthanaisa, it went to court and hit the headlines. Having a memory of a sieve
i can't remember what the outcome was. But to me it was wholly unfair that she had to go through all that stress, all she wanted was to die. It took a long time for the case to end, and it was all over the media.
of course i do understand that there would have to be someform of legal service in order to make sure that the person actually wants to die. Because alas we get people like Harold Shipman who murdered old ladies and robbed them, apparently in his defense he said it was some form of euthanasia
As for suicide? Bajab, you raised a very good point. Of course suicide is not an option that teens should look with enthusiasm, not at all. However, some people can be so depressed they can't even face the idea of living anymore. I know i've felt like that, (Like i said in my little intro bitty) I suffer from depression, and i've had weeks where i've felt that the idea of living so unbearable that i just want to die, lay in bed and wait for the end to come. Many a time i've laid crying, pleading with some form of deity (don't know why i'm atheist) to just let me die.
it's sad, but it's so horrid to feel that way. Because my moodswings are so erratic, i know in a couple of days i'll be on top of the world, and that keeps me going.
However there are some people who feel like that 24/7 with no rest, some people anti depressents don't work and niether does counselling. Is it such a crime to allow these people to end their lives of their own free will without a black mark upon their name in death? As in, why should we look down and think less of people who decided to take their own life. Yes it's sad and i don't think it should be something that we look upon as an option as such, but become more accepted in society.
Depression is such a taboo, as is all mental illness. I'm not too sure about any where else, but in Scotland at least we have a 'See me' campaign which is to make people more aware of mental illness. There are posters and adverts on the TV. 1 in 4 people in the UK suffer from some form of mental illness during the course of their lives. What i'm trying to say is that, if depression wasn't such a taboo, if every one accepted it, and therefore allowed people with depression to talk about their problems maybe the suicide rate would drop.
Like i said, although i don't agree that suicide is the 'way out' i don't think that it should be something that is 'evil, bad, a mortal sin, etc...'
Hope i made my points clear, i know i can go off on a tangent....
I remember in the UK a woman, paralized from the neck down was pleading for euthanaisa, it went to court and hit the headlines. Having a memory of a sieve
i can't remember what the outcome was. But to me it was wholly unfair that she had to go through all that stress, all she wanted was to die. It took a long time for the case to end, and it was all over the media.of course i do understand that there would have to be someform of legal service in order to make sure that the person actually wants to die. Because alas we get people like Harold Shipman who murdered old ladies and robbed them, apparently in his defense he said it was some form of euthanasia
As for suicide? Bajab, you raised a very good point. Of course suicide is not an option that teens should look with enthusiasm, not at all. However, some people can be so depressed they can't even face the idea of living anymore. I know i've felt like that, (Like i said in my little intro bitty) I suffer from depression, and i've had weeks where i've felt that the idea of living so unbearable that i just want to die, lay in bed and wait for the end to come. Many a time i've laid crying, pleading with some form of deity (don't know why i'm atheist) to just let me die.
it's sad, but it's so horrid to feel that way. Because my moodswings are so erratic, i know in a couple of days i'll be on top of the world, and that keeps me going.However there are some people who feel like that 24/7 with no rest, some people anti depressents don't work and niether does counselling. Is it such a crime to allow these people to end their lives of their own free will without a black mark upon their name in death? As in, why should we look down and think less of people who decided to take their own life. Yes it's sad and i don't think it should be something that we look upon as an option as such, but become more accepted in society.
Depression is such a taboo, as is all mental illness. I'm not too sure about any where else, but in Scotland at least we have a 'See me' campaign which is to make people more aware of mental illness. There are posters and adverts on the TV. 1 in 4 people in the UK suffer from some form of mental illness during the course of their lives. What i'm trying to say is that, if depression wasn't such a taboo, if every one accepted it, and therefore allowed people with depression to talk about their problems maybe the suicide rate would drop.
Like i said, although i don't agree that suicide is the 'way out' i don't think that it should be something that is 'evil, bad, a mortal sin, etc...'
Hope i made my points clear, i know i can go off on a tangent....
| QUOTE (bajab @ Mar 5 2006, 03:34 PM) |
| and I'm afraid more and more people with less serious problems would apply for the chance to die legally |
Well, I believe that you have to have numerus tests (if possible) before being accepted for euthanasia.
I am pretty sure that you have to see a series of doctors and phsycologists to ake sure that not only are you physically "entitled to death," but also if you are making the desicion in a healthy state of mind. If a person with some sort of mental illness wants to die, they must be screened to make sure they are making the decision on thier own will, and not because of the illness.
I agree as well as disagree with this. A person should not be killed if they do not intentionally want to be. If a person with mental retardation applies for euthanasia, it should be made sure that they understand the consequences, what it is, etc. The doctor/psychologist should be able to determine that. I disagree because somebody with no mental illness might be deprived the right to die if a doctor believes they are doing it to get out of some sort of stress that can be dealth with in other ways. Depriving somebody who WANTS to die the right is bound to get them riled up even more. Who knows what will happen then? Attempted suicide? They are placed in an enclosed facility?
Somebody please correct me if you know I am wrong about this, but I can remember reading it somewhere.......
_daviD
| QUOTE |
| I do believe that if a person wants to die, then they should be allowed to. If a person is in so much pain and has no life, than isn't it the cruel option to force them to live? I don't think it's fair personally. |
I agree with your point Ygraine. Someone very close to me was is this position. She had breast cancer that spread to her spine and brain, and the doctors came to the conclusion that they couldn't do anything...and if they attempted, it would be a major 'quality of life' issue...she'd be in constant pain, basically being kept alive for those of us still around to be with her for a little while longer...but a decision was made, and she died peacefully with all four of her children reunited, which had never happened under one roof.
thats one example where that sort of thing comes into play. Along with Million Dollar Baby if any of you saw that...
I agree with felix too, the mental state of the patient or person has to be examined and they have to be informed on what their decision really is if they don't understand.
As for suicide...
| QUOTE |
| I believe that some teens see suicide as a 'way out,' as you put it. An outlet, the easy way to fix the problem, thinking 'The only way to fix this is to end my own life'. What is going to happen when people all over start seeing suicide as a way to fix problems? It'll become a more common solution among teens and adults alike. As you said, the standards will sink lower and lower with each death. That isn't something that's going to better our future, in the government and crime scenes and whatnot. |
teens as well as adults...its kind of a crazy concept to think about (crazy as in not normal). I can only think of one reason where suicide is necessary, and that is when it benefits other people. I don't mean like..."if I kill myself, those people on VTM would be better off...", I mean more like something having to do with saving another life, or multiple lives...or protecting the truth (a truth worth dying for). One instance is when three native Hawaii'ans went to protest the US military test bombing islands...they were told to leave or they would be killed for trespassing...they didn't and were killed. Without going into the issue of trespassing, rules, consequences, who's really trespassing...we can see that they knew they were going to die if they kept going towards this island, so they were killed. They didn't pull the trigger, but they knew they were the ultimate reason (a just reason or not...thats for a different topic)...things like that where you're dying for the greater good (Like that one guy on Battefield Earth who went to the aliens' planet and blew himself up which blew the alien planet up).
Preservation of life. That's something that's always gotten me. We do everything in our power to preserve life yet there are people out there undoing a lifetime of work in one second. We have to make our own choices on how to live, like a few of you have mentioned so why can't we chose when we die? I don't agree with euthanasia when the person is lonely or just wants to die. If they have a terminal illness and their quality of life is lessened by it then yes, let them do it. But if they want to do it to just end it then I say no. There are so many people out there who would kill for the lives we lead and yet some of us would rather throw it all away because we're unhappy.
I don't agree with suicide either. It's the cowards way out. If you can't face life and take your own life then shame on you. Things do get better. But some people are so wrapped up in their own woes that they won't accept help. Sure some people don't see being on anti-depressants or other drugs a great life but at least they give you your life back. Wallowing in your misery doesn't do anyone any good and as far as I'm concerned their taking up space other people who cherish life could use. I know some people won't agree with what I just said but that's my opinion. Why should we support people who won't help themselves and let struggling people fall by the wayside with nothing but their own hope to keep them sane? The world needs to start helping those who can make a difference and lay off those who have already given up.
I don't agree with suicide either. It's the cowards way out. If you can't face life and take your own life then shame on you. Things do get better. But some people are so wrapped up in their own woes that they won't accept help. Sure some people don't see being on anti-depressants or other drugs a great life but at least they give you your life back. Wallowing in your misery doesn't do anyone any good and as far as I'm concerned their taking up space other people who cherish life could use. I know some people won't agree with what I just said but that's my opinion. Why should we support people who won't help themselves and let struggling people fall by the wayside with nothing but their own hope to keep them sane? The world needs to start helping those who can make a difference and lay off those who have already given up.
| QUOTE (felix_felicis_444 @ Mar 7 2006, 04:16 AM) |
| I am pretty sure that you have to see a series of doctors and phsycologists to ake sure that not only are you physically "entitled to death," but also if you are making the desicion in a healthy state of mind. If a person with some sort of mental illness wants to die, they must be screened to make sure they are making the decision on thier own will, and not because of the illness. |
Yeah, that sounds like a fair and appropriate way to permit something as fatal as euthanasia. In my previous post however, I did not express my doubts about the 'jural' side of the question (I am absolutely positive that there exists a fine way to regulate a matter like this), I was rather concerned about the human weakness part.
Let me explain it. Generally, I think there are two main problems when examining this part of the question. Firstly, as I've mentioned it earlier, there is a chance that people with less serious problems would apply for euthanasia. However, this may be very well regulated by the law -- e.g. the numerous tests you've mentioned. But secondly, I'm rather worried about the law itself. Nothing created by human hands is perfect, not even the law. As we witnessed it several times in history, there had always been a chance to alter the law. There feeling we call envy always existed, and so did the attempt to make things more righteous. Besides, there had been always tricks and deceptions. Putting these together, I can easily imagine, that sooner or later the regulations of euthanasia will change, and not necessarily in the right direction. Speaking clearly, I'm pretty much afraid that there will firstly be some 'exceptional cases', allowing some people who would not pass all the 'tests' needed to die, referring to their desperate states, then there will be people who find the rules too strict and unfair, so they will protest hoping that they manage to expand euthanasia rules, and slowly, the cases in which euthanasia is permitted will get less and less specific.
To sum up, I'm afraid that it is like if you allow it to occur, slowly it will also occur in cases where euthanasia is rather unestablised possibility.
I'm not entirely ure wether people should be able to do it or not, but (hopefully) I never will. In my opinion, it is the weak way out. Also, if you go and get yourself killed via euthanasia, and the next day a cure for that disease was found, how crazy would that be?
Indeed, thats my Dad's view of the subject, and I agree.
(Oh and I know this is a little
but I was born at the hostpital where Harold Shipman was working, when he was working. So i can say that I was born at the hands of a murderer 
)
QUOTE
Because alas we get people like Harold Shipman who murdered old ladies and robbed them, apparently in his defense he said it was some form of euthanasia
Indeed, thats my Dad's view of the subject, and I agree.
(Oh and I know this is a little
but I was born at the hostpital where Harold Shipman was working, when he was working. So i can say that I was born at the hands of a murderer )
I have very radical thoughts about this matter because I feel really strong toward it.
I agree with euthanasia. As felix_felicis_444 where euthanasia is legal, there also exists a good amount of test to prove it is necessary. And the doctors may sure the patient wants to do it and that is not just the pain talking. What I am trying to point out is that euthanasia is not a rush decision but a complex process. Nevertheless I defend it because as others already say people has right to decide how to die as much as how to live. Life implies enough struggles. Why someone has to keep fighting trying to make others understand that as life is a right, death is a right too? If that someone is oppressed by the pain it is really unfair not put our selves in their shoes and understand what a nightmare that must be. If someone choose to fight against the pain and against sickness until his last breath is fine. But if someone decides to put and end to that and face death a little sooner they are not less brave because of it. They have the same dignity.
In this case the person does not act for itself because he or she is not in that capacity. I mean many of them do not have motor-skills anymore, as they can not move properly the look for assistance which help them to finish with life.
Anyway I believe euthanasia is not that far from the no-resuscitation order. In the last mention the person is making a decision against to keep alive through a machine, technically the person is not alive because the machine breathes for him/her. And the brain keeps doing a little amount of tasks but they are not conscious. People who are in the last stages of an illness do not have a proper life not to mention the pain, so if they decided to put and end to their suffering why the rest of us have to judge them? I mean, we are not being a little selfish there? Many of us will think about everything that person let behind but I’m sure people who applied have at least one counselor session to be positive that they fully understand the implications.
About suicide I must agree this is a much more controversial topic. I am in favor of it all the same. I was thinking you were going to kick me out of here for my thoughts about this subject until I read Ygraine post. As Ygraine I suffer from depression and obsessive angst since around I was 12 (I have a creepy bad memory too). I do not remember who say antidepressants give you your life back but that is not exactly accurate. What they do is more like help you deal with life in better terms. One of the problems with these mental illnesses is that many people do not look for help because they are not aware that they suffer it. On the other hand, the horrible thing about them is that your suffering is not exactly physical (sometime it can be for a psychosomatic repercussion on the body or just because you hurt yourself) but still you feel a deep and constant pain. And I understand people who take the decision to end it. I mean that thought has cross my mind more than once but I always end finding something that I am not ready to leave.
Do not underestimated unhappiness. I do not mean something like “I am so sad because I can not buy that jewels anymore” and I am pretty aware that happiness is not a constant state but more a sort of reunion of good instants. The thing is what happens when one has such a heavy burden everyday and it pains so much? You just want that something helps you that someone ends it once and for all.
I do not see people who commit suicide as cowards (they are not heroes either), they are desperate but take away your own life is not easy. So please, do not place labels and bad adjectives over them. The needed help and can not find it. But there are not the greatest sinners of all times.
I know many people is out there using suicide as a way of manipulate others and I despise that attitude very much as well as that of those who write suicide letter saying that someone else is guilty for their actions. That is the most foolish I can ever imagine. One takes oneself decisions and nobody else has to have such a burden as to maintain us in love with our lives as well as no one else have to take the load someone leave in that kind of letters.
To conclude, I think we have as much right over our death as over our life. Both are very personal rights and of course the law has to place restrictions but every person has to be very conscious that death is irreversible. I think is pathetic that the law has to obligate anyone to move on with life.
I hope I have been clear, but I doubt it because when I was re-reading it I a sensation of confussion assaulted my mind.
I agree with euthanasia. As felix_felicis_444 where euthanasia is legal, there also exists a good amount of test to prove it is necessary. And the doctors may sure the patient wants to do it and that is not just the pain talking. What I am trying to point out is that euthanasia is not a rush decision but a complex process. Nevertheless I defend it because as others already say people has right to decide how to die as much as how to live. Life implies enough struggles. Why someone has to keep fighting trying to make others understand that as life is a right, death is a right too? If that someone is oppressed by the pain it is really unfair not put our selves in their shoes and understand what a nightmare that must be. If someone choose to fight against the pain and against sickness until his last breath is fine. But if someone decides to put and end to that and face death a little sooner they are not less brave because of it. They have the same dignity.
In this case the person does not act for itself because he or she is not in that capacity. I mean many of them do not have motor-skills anymore, as they can not move properly the look for assistance which help them to finish with life.
Anyway I believe euthanasia is not that far from the no-resuscitation order. In the last mention the person is making a decision against to keep alive through a machine, technically the person is not alive because the machine breathes for him/her. And the brain keeps doing a little amount of tasks but they are not conscious. People who are in the last stages of an illness do not have a proper life not to mention the pain, so if they decided to put and end to their suffering why the rest of us have to judge them? I mean, we are not being a little selfish there? Many of us will think about everything that person let behind but I’m sure people who applied have at least one counselor session to be positive that they fully understand the implications.
About suicide I must agree this is a much more controversial topic. I am in favor of it all the same. I was thinking you were going to kick me out of here for my thoughts about this subject until I read Ygraine post. As Ygraine I suffer from depression and obsessive angst since around I was 12 (I have a creepy bad memory too). I do not remember who say antidepressants give you your life back but that is not exactly accurate. What they do is more like help you deal with life in better terms. One of the problems with these mental illnesses is that many people do not look for help because they are not aware that they suffer it. On the other hand, the horrible thing about them is that your suffering is not exactly physical (sometime it can be for a psychosomatic repercussion on the body or just because you hurt yourself) but still you feel a deep and constant pain. And I understand people who take the decision to end it. I mean that thought has cross my mind more than once but I always end finding something that I am not ready to leave.
QUOTE(TriadOfDarkness)
If they want to do it to just end it then I say no. There are so many people out there who would kill for the lives we lead and yet some of us would rather throw it all away because we're unhappy.
I don't agree with suicide either. It's the cowards way out. If you can't face life and take your own life then shame on you.
I don't agree with suicide either. It's the cowards way out. If you can't face life and take your own life then shame on you.
Do not underestimated unhappiness. I do not mean something like “I am so sad because I can not buy that jewels anymore” and I am pretty aware that happiness is not a constant state but more a sort of reunion of good instants. The thing is what happens when one has such a heavy burden everyday and it pains so much? You just want that something helps you that someone ends it once and for all.
I do not see people who commit suicide as cowards (they are not heroes either), they are desperate but take away your own life is not easy. So please, do not place labels and bad adjectives over them. The needed help and can not find it. But there are not the greatest sinners of all times.
I know many people is out there using suicide as a way of manipulate others and I despise that attitude very much as well as that of those who write suicide letter saying that someone else is guilty for their actions. That is the most foolish I can ever imagine. One takes oneself decisions and nobody else has to have such a burden as to maintain us in love with our lives as well as no one else have to take the load someone leave in that kind of letters.
To conclude, I think we have as much right over our death as over our life. Both are very personal rights and of course the law has to place restrictions but every person has to be very conscious that death is irreversible. I think is pathetic that the law has to obligate anyone to move on with life.
I hope I have been clear, but I doubt it because when I was re-reading it I a sensation of confussion assaulted my mind.
QUOTE(Bendis @ Jun 18 2006, 09:31 AM) [snapback]194108[/snapback]
To conclude, I think we have as much right over our death as over our life. Both are very personal rights and of course the law has to place restrictions but every person has to be very conscious that death is irreversible. I think is pathetic that the law has to obligate anyone to move on with life.
I agree with you that we have as much right over our death as over a life becasue we are the one living it not the government who wrote the law.
With suicide, it is sad to know that someone decied that they do not want to live their life anymore with us. Taking your life into your own hands and ending it without discussing it with the ones you love and trust is selfish in the fact that everyone wonders why you did it.
My friend's brother commited suicide when he suffered depression and his family still hasn't gotten over it because he never told them he needed help. This is sad for the family.
With euthanasia, it is deffinately acceptable to decide you can not take a terminal illness any more like an incurrable cancer that my grandmother had. She died of bowl cancer but she didn't want to go through treatment because she had been told that she had no chance of survival: treatment or not. My grandfather didn't tell the rest of family but still made her go through the treatment.
Euthanasia was what she wanted but no one would let her.
This is completely unfair on my grandmother's case and I know there are many other cases having lost so many people close to me to cancer that was untreatable.
Our life is: our life! No one can decide whether we life in an inhumainly way suffering all the time or whether we let go and go to where ever we believe we go other death.
Both topics can spark emotion because some say it is ok others refuse to let someone want to die because of religion or another emotion.
Someone mentioned Dr. Kavorkian in here. Well I grew up in Michigan where this man was performing euthanasia and what we saw in the news isnt what specificly happened. He was perfoming euthanasia on people that didnt want to live even though some of them had a chance to live an good life even without using serious treatment. And this was one of the uproars. now let me use another point made in here to explain why. to quote Felix:
[quote]I am pretty sure that you have to see a series of doctors and phsycologists to ake sure that not only are you physically "entitled to death," but also if you are making the desicion in a healthy state of mind. If a person with some sort of mental illness wants to die, they must be screened to make sure they are making the decision on thier own will, and not because of the illness.[quote]
This was the problem with Kavorikian none of this was being done. He didnt care about any of this. All the patient had to do was come in with a loved one sign papers and make a video stating they weren't being forced into euthanasia and then it was done. End of story.
Now i personally dont believe in euthanasia, more for religous reasons than anything. I personally think that every person has something to give in life until they die. I am a nurse and have worked in Hospice and they do a really good job of making the patient that is terminal and the patients family very comfortable. The patient and the family get good closure. Now i do think its ok for a patient to refuse treatment. If i cancer and taking the treatment most likely wont help me and make me miserable and i decide to live the rest of the time i have as well as i can or in hospice care its all right. Thats different than going to a Dr. and asking them to end my life.
Here in the states, you can report someone suicidal or the police can pick up someone who is suicidal and put them in and instution to see whats wrong with them. they can observe and evaluate them-- Why is this type of suicide deemed so wrong but then when a person that has a terminal illness the debate starts and its all of a sudden ok to commit suicide?
[quote]I am pretty sure that you have to see a series of doctors and phsycologists to ake sure that not only are you physically "entitled to death," but also if you are making the desicion in a healthy state of mind. If a person with some sort of mental illness wants to die, they must be screened to make sure they are making the decision on thier own will, and not because of the illness.[quote]
This was the problem with Kavorikian none of this was being done. He didnt care about any of this. All the patient had to do was come in with a loved one sign papers and make a video stating they weren't being forced into euthanasia and then it was done. End of story.
Now i personally dont believe in euthanasia, more for religous reasons than anything. I personally think that every person has something to give in life until they die. I am a nurse and have worked in Hospice and they do a really good job of making the patient that is terminal and the patients family very comfortable. The patient and the family get good closure. Now i do think its ok for a patient to refuse treatment. If i cancer and taking the treatment most likely wont help me and make me miserable and i decide to live the rest of the time i have as well as i can or in hospice care its all right. Thats different than going to a Dr. and asking them to end my life.
Here in the states, you can report someone suicidal or the police can pick up someone who is suicidal and put them in and instution to see whats wrong with them. they can observe and evaluate them-- Why is this type of suicide deemed so wrong but then when a person that has a terminal illness the debate starts and its all of a sudden ok to commit suicide?
Reading from the posts that mentioned how teens use it to end their long life of a depression because they believe that the only way to get out of it was death. I can look at this from a personal experience. I am a teen, a fairly young one I might add. But when I was just thirteen years old I had a devestating experience in my life the year before that led me to the point of depression. Depression to me felt like I had no desire for my interests no longer, nothing to look forward to, nobody cared, being alone and nothing to live for. I was so highly depressed I was considering suicide by the hour.
Looking back at those times makes me feel vulnerable, for some teens and adults, their lives are even more painful than one such as my very own.
I learned a lesson from this, that people actually would care if I commited suicide and there was such a long life ahead of me. I'm not saying that there is no reason for suicide to occur. If a person is in terrible physical state or agony, on the verge of death for example, it should be their choice whether they would wish to live or not. So my point is, suicide should be a person's choice, but they should carefully think what other's lives would be like without them around much longer.
There were two teenage boys that commited suicide in my town in the last few years and it really makes you think.. They have the choice to live don't they? Well they should get the same choice to die as well. In my opinion, the law should not interfere or have anything to do with suicide because honestly, it is not affecting them personally and they can't stop people for having free will.
Looking back at those times makes me feel vulnerable, for some teens and adults, their lives are even more painful than one such as my very own.
I learned a lesson from this, that people actually would care if I commited suicide and there was such a long life ahead of me. I'm not saying that there is no reason for suicide to occur. If a person is in terrible physical state or agony, on the verge of death for example, it should be their choice whether they would wish to live or not. So my point is, suicide should be a person's choice, but they should carefully think what other's lives would be like without them around much longer.
There were two teenage boys that commited suicide in my town in the last few years and it really makes you think.. They have the choice to live don't they? Well they should get the same choice to die as well. In my opinion, the law should not interfere or have anything to do with suicide because honestly, it is not affecting them personally and they can't stop people for having free will.
Alright I was checking out the topics in The Forbidden Forest and saw this one. My mind totally went back to a conversation I had this past week with a friend about what the Pope said about Euthanasia (Here is the link to the article What the Pope said), so I'm here posting away.
I'm a very religious person (I'm not Catholic ), I agree with what someone said here I'm not sure who but they said that we all have something to do here on this earth. Although I understand why people support euthanasia, I don't completely agree with it. I think one of the reasons why euthanasia is an option for many is because they're scared of death and think it'd be easier to just get over with it rather than wait for it to come. I know that many people suffer a lot with terminal illnesses, but there's a reason why they're still here. Maybe they still have something to learn before they die or wait maybe a relative does. The point is that I believe people should fight until the very end. I had a friend who died of cancer. He was my best friend in the world. Everyone said we would probably end up married one day. When I moved to Mexico I lost all contact with him and my other friends. One day about 3 years ago I got an e-mail from a friend telling me that my best friend was dead. He died alone in a hospital bed without anyone there for him. From what I've gathered from friends, they tell me that at the end he gave up. He had no desire to keep living, partly because he didn't have anyone (other than his mom, but she had to work to be able to pay the medical bills) to cheer him on. He let himself die. The point I'm trying to make with this story is that if we still have a bit of life in us we have to cling on to it. There are still things we can do from a hospital bed. My grandma died of a liver disease. She was really ill but she never gave up. She kept helping others until the day she died. These are two examples of different cases. Dave gave up, he had a whole life ahead of him. There was still so much he could have done because he was one of the most amazing persons I ever had the privilege to know but he gave up. My grandma was a 65 year old woman and she didn't give up at all. She lived life to it's fullest.
As for suicide, well even though I understand Bendis and Ygraine (because I'm struggling with depression myself), I don't think suicide is an option. Life is a precious gift we have. Every time I'm feeling really down and I don't see what I should go on for, I think of all the kids who don't have the privilege of living. I use to be a volunteer at a hospital and I worked in the childrens ward with the kids with cancer. Well every time I think about taking the not-so-easy way out I think of them. How hard they're fighting to stay here on this earth. Some days it's harder than others but I'm convinced some day I'll be ok. Suicide is not an option at all! Like Laurette said things will get better someday. (I will remind myself to come and read my own post when I'm in one of my bad days)
Ok I've rambled on enough for one day
-Stef
I'm a very religious person (I'm not Catholic ), I agree with what someone said here I'm not sure who but they said that we all have something to do here on this earth. Although I understand why people support euthanasia, I don't completely agree with it. I think one of the reasons why euthanasia is an option for many is because they're scared of death and think it'd be easier to just get over with it rather than wait for it to come. I know that many people suffer a lot with terminal illnesses, but there's a reason why they're still here. Maybe they still have something to learn before they die or wait maybe a relative does. The point is that I believe people should fight until the very end. I had a friend who died of cancer. He was my best friend in the world. Everyone said we would probably end up married one day. When I moved to Mexico I lost all contact with him and my other friends. One day about 3 years ago I got an e-mail from a friend telling me that my best friend was dead. He died alone in a hospital bed without anyone there for him. From what I've gathered from friends, they tell me that at the end he gave up. He had no desire to keep living, partly because he didn't have anyone (other than his mom, but she had to work to be able to pay the medical bills) to cheer him on. He let himself die. The point I'm trying to make with this story is that if we still have a bit of life in us we have to cling on to it. There are still things we can do from a hospital bed. My grandma died of a liver disease. She was really ill but she never gave up. She kept helping others until the day she died. These are two examples of different cases. Dave gave up, he had a whole life ahead of him. There was still so much he could have done because he was one of the most amazing persons I ever had the privilege to know but he gave up. My grandma was a 65 year old woman and she didn't give up at all. She lived life to it's fullest.
As for suicide, well even though I understand Bendis and Ygraine (because I'm struggling with depression myself), I don't think suicide is an option. Life is a precious gift we have. Every time I'm feeling really down and I don't see what I should go on for, I think of all the kids who don't have the privilege of living. I use to be a volunteer at a hospital and I worked in the childrens ward with the kids with cancer. Well every time I think about taking the not-so-easy way out I think of them. How hard they're fighting to stay here on this earth. Some days it's harder than others but I'm convinced some day I'll be ok. Suicide is not an option at all! Like Laurette said things will get better someday. (I will remind myself to come and read my own post when I'm in one of my bad days)
Ok I've rambled on enough for one day
-Stef
I wonder if I've posted here already. Hm... 
I really liked your post, Stef. Especially the way you presented those two sides of the same thing. Psychologists say that when people find out that they're going to die because of a serious disease, they are going through several stages. I tried to find them at my book, but I couldn't. From what I recall, there was anger, denial, depression, solitude, negotiation and acceptance, at the very end.
It is hard saying what one would do at a similar case, because when we face these things from far, we all say that we would be brave and try to live life to its fullest. I hope none of us will have to go through that. I'm really sorry for your friend Stef. Not because he had that disease, but because he felt alone. It makes you wonder how you could have been there if you knew, to help him get over it. It really does make you wonder. Maybe the difference between your grandma and your friend was that your grandma had already lived her life, in contrast with your friend who was too young to have done the things he wanted to.
I don't know which side to pick. I do believe that we must give people the chance to show that they can survive. If a family can't afford it financially, the state should help them. You can never know when one will get better, or wake up from a coma. No man can decide one someone else's fate. Only the man himself.
As for suicide, I totally agree with Stef's point. When you think of these kids who struggle to live one more day, it's really sad that others throw away their years just like that. I read a book called "Thirteen reasons why" (suggested in the Bookshelf by a member here at vtm), where a girl has made 13 tapes before she killed herself, explaining why she did it. And you know which was the worst? That if someone had actually listened to her, she wouldn't have done it. But people don't listen with their hearts anymore. This made me think of how many people could have been saved had he showed more interest in them. It's so tragic...
I really liked your post, Stef. Especially the way you presented those two sides of the same thing. Psychologists say that when people find out that they're going to die because of a serious disease, they are going through several stages. I tried to find them at my book, but I couldn't. From what I recall, there was anger, denial, depression, solitude, negotiation and acceptance, at the very end.
It is hard saying what one would do at a similar case, because when we face these things from far, we all say that we would be brave and try to live life to its fullest. I hope none of us will have to go through that. I'm really sorry for your friend Stef. Not because he had that disease, but because he felt alone. It makes you wonder how you could have been there if you knew, to help him get over it. It really does make you wonder. Maybe the difference between your grandma and your friend was that your grandma had already lived her life, in contrast with your friend who was too young to have done the things he wanted to.
I don't know which side to pick. I do believe that we must give people the chance to show that they can survive. If a family can't afford it financially, the state should help them. You can never know when one will get better, or wake up from a coma. No man can decide one someone else's fate. Only the man himself.
As for suicide, I totally agree with Stef's point. When you think of these kids who struggle to live one more day, it's really sad that others throw away their years just like that. I read a book called "Thirteen reasons why" (suggested in the Bookshelf by a member here at vtm), where a girl has made 13 tapes before she killed herself, explaining why she did it. And you know which was the worst? That if someone had actually listened to her, she wouldn't have done it. But people don't listen with their hearts anymore. This made me think of how many people could have been saved had he showed more interest in them. It's so tragic...
Everyone makes valid points here, and a few I agree with, and will probably end up repeating - which I apologise for in advance.
I remember in my Religious Education class last year we covered this topic and my teacher was all but adamant that euthanasia was wrong.
As far as I understand it the religious teachings say that euthanasia is like playing God. In a documentary we watched they were talking about how God is the only one who can decide when our time is up and he is the only one who can take life. They argued that euthanasia was taking the matter into our own hands and taking on the role of God.
I'm not religious. I don't believe this. I'm very pro choice. I think we were given free will for a reason. Some religions, as I learned last year, are totally against euthanasia. Some people who aren't religious are also against euthanasia, and in some cases it is because these people are afraid to lose the ones they love. Rather selfish sometimes, wouldn't you say? But if it was someones choice to die. Their free choice and their free will, why should we deny it them? Why should we subject them to a life they cannot, or refuse to, bear?
Death isn't an easy subject for most people. Take a second here to think about what I ask next.
If it was your choice to end your life, how hard would you have to think about it?
I'll go out on a limb here and say that most of you would have said you would have to think very long and hard to make a decision as huge as that. So if someone makes that choice, they must have also taken a long time to think about it too. Life isn't something most people would just throw away.
If someone has thought so much about something, thought so hard about what they should do, and decided that the best thing for it, the best way out was death, then shouldn't they be entitled to carry on with that decision and actually go through with it?
It's their choice, they should be allowed to decide. Not have something as big as death decided for them. Not by God, not by a doctor, not by anyone but themselves.
Imagine if you were in excruciating pain that you couldn't escape from. Imagine if you had been involved in an accident that left you in a vegetative state, you couldn't think or do anything for yourself, you were just a vegetable lying there, and you were never going to come back from it. Why would you want to carry on if that was all that was left for you. In certain cases like these and more, isn't euthanasia sometimes the best option?
I know that if I had to watch a loved one go through something like this I wouldn't want to have to see them suffer, if death really was what was best for them I think I could deal with it and I could let them go because I would know it would be better.
If I was in this situation I would probably wish for death myself. If I was in a vegetative state I would want someone to kill me, to bring death and ultimately freedom upon me. Though this would be a matter of dignity for me as well. I wouldn't want people to see me that way, so helpless and so vulnerable.
While many people oppose euthanasia, they should probably try and step into the shoes of people like this. Try and think that if they were in a similar situation wouldn't they want the same?
If you think that death would be the only way for someone like that to be able to live again, to be free from pain and torment, then wouldn't you agree that in some cases euthanasia would be whats best?
In that RE lesson last year we were taught that euthanasia was 'assisted suicide'.
I don't think suicide is much different to euthanasia.
It's still someone deciding, it's still someone choosing death over life or live over death.
A lot of people disagree with suicide. In that same RE lesson we learnt that from a religious point of view suicide is, again, playing God. One of my friends who is a very devoted Christian even explained to me in one of out conversations that from the Christian point of view if you commited suicide you were going straight to hell.
But what should that be? Why should anyone think that suicide is so wrong or so bad?
As many people have pointed out before, and as I know from previous experiences, depression is such a bad thing. It heightens things, it amplifies them until you believe they are worse than they really, until you're so low that you think you could never get out of the horrible place you're in. Sometimes death is an escape from that. If you were so desperate for an escape, if you really believed you could never get out, wouldn't death seem somewhat appealing?
I agree with Stef, life is a gift and we should cherish it. It was given to us by what ever it is that gave us this life and this is our one chance at making it good.
For me, suicide isn't an option. No matter how appealing it has been to me at times, no matter how easy I thought it could be to end everything, to end what I was feeling, I could never do it. This is because this is the one chance we have. No other chances. This. Is. It. I've managed to pull myself out of that miserable hole of existance, and while I fall back down occasioanlly I know that I have the strength to pull myself back out again, and I will do what ever I can to get out.
But that's my choice.
If someone elses choice is different why should it be bad? Like I said before we were given free will, and we were given this life. It was given to us, it's ours, why can't we do what we want with it?
If you were that low you couldn't see any hope of climbing back out of the hole, it would seem easy to choose suicide. If someone did choose suicide I wouldn't see it as a bad thing because they must have really been so low that if death was the only escape, then they could only be in a better place.
So for euthanasia and suicide I have the same conclusion.
It's our choice, and we have the right to do with our life what we wish. If death is what someone wishes then it's their choice and I can learn to live with that, because if that's their freedom, then it must be better than life. I can live with that.
Can you?
Kelly
x
I remember in my Religious Education class last year we covered this topic and my teacher was all but adamant that euthanasia was wrong.
As far as I understand it the religious teachings say that euthanasia is like playing God. In a documentary we watched they were talking about how God is the only one who can decide when our time is up and he is the only one who can take life. They argued that euthanasia was taking the matter into our own hands and taking on the role of God.
I'm not religious. I don't believe this. I'm very pro choice. I think we were given free will for a reason. Some religions, as I learned last year, are totally against euthanasia. Some people who aren't religious are also against euthanasia, and in some cases it is because these people are afraid to lose the ones they love. Rather selfish sometimes, wouldn't you say? But if it was someones choice to die. Their free choice and their free will, why should we deny it them? Why should we subject them to a life they cannot, or refuse to, bear?
Death isn't an easy subject for most people. Take a second here to think about what I ask next.
If it was your choice to end your life, how hard would you have to think about it?
I'll go out on a limb here and say that most of you would have said you would have to think very long and hard to make a decision as huge as that. So if someone makes that choice, they must have also taken a long time to think about it too. Life isn't something most people would just throw away.
If someone has thought so much about something, thought so hard about what they should do, and decided that the best thing for it, the best way out was death, then shouldn't they be entitled to carry on with that decision and actually go through with it?
It's their choice, they should be allowed to decide. Not have something as big as death decided for them. Not by God, not by a doctor, not by anyone but themselves.
Imagine if you were in excruciating pain that you couldn't escape from. Imagine if you had been involved in an accident that left you in a vegetative state, you couldn't think or do anything for yourself, you were just a vegetable lying there, and you were never going to come back from it. Why would you want to carry on if that was all that was left for you. In certain cases like these and more, isn't euthanasia sometimes the best option?
I know that if I had to watch a loved one go through something like this I wouldn't want to have to see them suffer, if death really was what was best for them I think I could deal with it and I could let them go because I would know it would be better.
If I was in this situation I would probably wish for death myself. If I was in a vegetative state I would want someone to kill me, to bring death and ultimately freedom upon me. Though this would be a matter of dignity for me as well. I wouldn't want people to see me that way, so helpless and so vulnerable.
While many people oppose euthanasia, they should probably try and step into the shoes of people like this. Try and think that if they were in a similar situation wouldn't they want the same?
If you think that death would be the only way for someone like that to be able to live again, to be free from pain and torment, then wouldn't you agree that in some cases euthanasia would be whats best?
In that RE lesson last year we were taught that euthanasia was 'assisted suicide'.
I don't think suicide is much different to euthanasia.
It's still someone deciding, it's still someone choosing death over life or live over death.
A lot of people disagree with suicide. In that same RE lesson we learnt that from a religious point of view suicide is, again, playing God. One of my friends who is a very devoted Christian even explained to me in one of out conversations that from the Christian point of view if you commited suicide you were going straight to hell.
But what should that be? Why should anyone think that suicide is so wrong or so bad?
As many people have pointed out before, and as I know from previous experiences, depression is such a bad thing. It heightens things, it amplifies them until you believe they are worse than they really, until you're so low that you think you could never get out of the horrible place you're in. Sometimes death is an escape from that. If you were so desperate for an escape, if you really believed you could never get out, wouldn't death seem somewhat appealing?
I agree with Stef, life is a gift and we should cherish it. It was given to us by what ever it is that gave us this life and this is our one chance at making it good.
For me, suicide isn't an option. No matter how appealing it has been to me at times, no matter how easy I thought it could be to end everything, to end what I was feeling, I could never do it. This is because this is the one chance we have. No other chances. This. Is. It. I've managed to pull myself out of that miserable hole of existance, and while I fall back down occasioanlly I know that I have the strength to pull myself back out again, and I will do what ever I can to get out.
But that's my choice.
If someone elses choice is different why should it be bad? Like I said before we were given free will, and we were given this life. It was given to us, it's ours, why can't we do what we want with it?
If you were that low you couldn't see any hope of climbing back out of the hole, it would seem easy to choose suicide. If someone did choose suicide I wouldn't see it as a bad thing because they must have really been so low that if death was the only escape, then they could only be in a better place.
So for euthanasia and suicide I have the same conclusion.
It's our choice, and we have the right to do with our life what we wish. If death is what someone wishes then it's their choice and I can learn to live with that, because if that's their freedom, then it must be better than life. I can live with that.
Can you?
Kelly
x
As many people have said, in a situation where a person is suffering greatly, living their lives from a bed, I think that Euthanasia would be merciful as compared to just leaving them to lay there. Stef, said that everybody has a reason for being here, even those with a terminal illness, but I have to disagree, sometimes it gets to the point where letting that person live with their illness is just cruel.
My Oma was one of the most amazing people I've ever met, even at 85 years old, she was full of life and always running around doing things and helping people less fortunate than her. A year later she took a really bad fall and just as she was starting to recover she suffered from a stroke. She spent the next 7 years laying in a bed unable to move or speak. Her eyes were open when she was awake and she could see and hear everything going on around her, and according to the doctors she still understood what was going on and she would try to respond when we spoke to her in German. Her mind was still there but she was trapped inside her body, she had no control over bodily functions and couldn't express what she was thinking in any way. There were points where we would think she was getting better, only for it to get even worse. In my opinion we should have let her go a long time before she finally passed away last year, I was constantly wishing that she would just die already so that she would be out of her suffering and pain, and I knew from when I was 12 years old, when I finally accepted that she wasn't getting better, that I wouldn't want to be left alive like that.
In a case like hers I really can't find one reason why she needed to still be on earth in that state, if the doctors were right and she did know what was going on around her then she must have been truly miserable to live that long without being able to say anything to the people she loved, and not only was she miserable but her husband, my Opa, was completely destroyed by it. I can honestly say that nothing good came out of her suffering for that long. In cases like this I don't see why the person should be forced to continue living, when ending their life would be so much kinder.
I agree that life is a precious gift and we shouldn't waste it. I don't think that suicide is ever acceptable. No matter how depressed you are or how bad your life is that you think that you should just end it, I think that it can always get better. I've been there, at the point where it seems hopeless and I just wanted to give up, but even when I thought it would be so much easier to just end my life suicide wasn't an option.
I know that its ironic that I would think Euthanasia to be ok while suicide is unacceptable, but I don't look at them as the same thing. If you're unhealthy and unable to live your life then you have the right to deide to end it, however if you're healthy and can live your life than you should make the most of it, no matter how hard that may seem at the time.
~Kristina
My Oma was one of the most amazing people I've ever met, even at 85 years old, she was full of life and always running around doing things and helping people less fortunate than her. A year later she took a really bad fall and just as she was starting to recover she suffered from a stroke. She spent the next 7 years laying in a bed unable to move or speak. Her eyes were open when she was awake and she could see and hear everything going on around her, and according to the doctors she still understood what was going on and she would try to respond when we spoke to her in German. Her mind was still there but she was trapped inside her body, she had no control over bodily functions and couldn't express what she was thinking in any way. There were points where we would think she was getting better, only for it to get even worse. In my opinion we should have let her go a long time before she finally passed away last year, I was constantly wishing that she would just die already so that she would be out of her suffering and pain, and I knew from when I was 12 years old, when I finally accepted that she wasn't getting better, that I wouldn't want to be left alive like that.
In a case like hers I really can't find one reason why she needed to still be on earth in that state, if the doctors were right and she did know what was going on around her then she must have been truly miserable to live that long without being able to say anything to the people she loved, and not only was she miserable but her husband, my Opa, was completely destroyed by it. I can honestly say that nothing good came out of her suffering for that long. In cases like this I don't see why the person should be forced to continue living, when ending their life would be so much kinder.
I agree that life is a precious gift and we shouldn't waste it. I don't think that suicide is ever acceptable. No matter how depressed you are or how bad your life is that you think that you should just end it, I think that it can always get better. I've been there, at the point where it seems hopeless and I just wanted to give up, but even when I thought it would be so much easier to just end my life suicide wasn't an option.
I know that its ironic that I would think Euthanasia to be ok while suicide is unacceptable, but I don't look at them as the same thing. If you're unhealthy and unable to live your life then you have the right to deide to end it, however if you're healthy and can live your life than you should make the most of it, no matter how hard that may seem at the time.
~Kristina
I believe as well that suicide and euthanasia are two totally different things. Euthanasia is a result of enormous pain. It is a choice you make when you know that you'll never recover, never be totally healthy again, always being dependent on others. Death in this case seems to be the best way out. Life should be something wonderful, full of joy and happiness, not a constant torture you can't escape from. Suicide is the result of depression and desperation. If one is healthy, then they can try to make things better. Man has so many possibilities, and as long as one can dream and hope and desire, they can try to make their life better. I just hope that noone ever feels the need to get out of everything, whether by euthanasia or suicide.
Alkisti there's two things you mention.
One point I have to make is that I always learnt about euthanasia as 'assisted suicide' so for starters I always think of them as the same thing because of that.
You say that euthanasia is when you know you can't live anymore, that you'll never recover but that suicide is just because of depression.
Wouldn't you say though that if one is depressed, and I mean clinically depressed, diagnosed by a doctor or showing the symptoms of major depression, that they also won't ever recover. Depression is a disease of the mind. When someone is depressed they are tortured by it in most cases.
Wouldn't you then say that depression is also something a person can never really recover from. Sure doctors think they can give prozac out to people or shut them away in an institution and pretend nothing's wrong but the person will never really recover from depression because that, and other illnesses similar to it, attack the mind set of a person and they get ill. They stop sleeping, stop eating, lose interest in most things. That's not really the way to live a life.
So if someone were like that, if they were so depressed that nothing was the same, that nothing was good anymore and they weren't and couldn't be happy again or be normal again. Some people who suffer from depression also get so bad that they have to depend on others to help them through. If they were so messed up that it was making them ill, wouldn't suicide seem a rational option to them. It doesn't seem rational to people who don't suffer from it, but to be in the same situation as someone who suffers from depression, well I don't think anyone could really imagine what it would be like.
So, what I'm basically saying is that I disagree, I think the choice to end your life is the same in both euthanasia and suicide. I think it's a case of not being able to recover and not being healthy ever again in both situations.
I don't think we can ever really understand why someone chooses to take their life either, whether it be through the means of suicide or euthanasia. I think the reasons differ from person to person so we can never really say that they're different either. Though you could then argue there that we can never really say they're the same.
But I do agree whole heartedly that life is wonderful and shouldn't be this horrible thing that you feel you can't escape from. From past experiences I know what its like and now, partly to make sure it doesn't happen again but also because I've learnt things from what I went through, I try to live my life as best as I possibly can. And so might everyone else. But that doesn't stop me relapsing and spiraling down again. So people might try to see life as wonderful and happy, but it might not work for everyone. You can't always help how you feel.
So just to reitterate. I think in both cases, euthanasia and suicide, its always going to be a case of a horrible torture that you can't escape. Its just that usually euthanasia happens because of an illness of the body whereas people who commit suicide from depression its usually an illness of the mind. To me, that's the only real difference in the two.
Kelly
x
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Euthanasia is a result of enormous pain. It is a choice you make when you know that you'll never recover, never be totally healthy again, always being dependent on others.
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Suicide is the result of depression and desperation. If one is healthy, then they can try to make things better.
One point I have to make is that I always learnt about euthanasia as 'assisted suicide' so for starters I always think of them as the same thing because of that.
You say that euthanasia is when you know you can't live anymore, that you'll never recover but that suicide is just because of depression.
Wouldn't you say though that if one is depressed, and I mean clinically depressed, diagnosed by a doctor or showing the symptoms of major depression, that they also won't ever recover. Depression is a disease of the mind. When someone is depressed they are tortured by it in most cases.
Wouldn't you then say that depression is also something a person can never really recover from. Sure doctors think they can give prozac out to people or shut them away in an institution and pretend nothing's wrong but the person will never really recover from depression because that, and other illnesses similar to it, attack the mind set of a person and they get ill. They stop sleeping, stop eating, lose interest in most things. That's not really the way to live a life.
So if someone were like that, if they were so depressed that nothing was the same, that nothing was good anymore and they weren't and couldn't be happy again or be normal again. Some people who suffer from depression also get so bad that they have to depend on others to help them through. If they were so messed up that it was making them ill, wouldn't suicide seem a rational option to them. It doesn't seem rational to people who don't suffer from it, but to be in the same situation as someone who suffers from depression, well I don't think anyone could really imagine what it would be like.
So, what I'm basically saying is that I disagree, I think the choice to end your life is the same in both euthanasia and suicide. I think it's a case of not being able to recover and not being healthy ever again in both situations.
I don't think we can ever really understand why someone chooses to take their life either, whether it be through the means of suicide or euthanasia. I think the reasons differ from person to person so we can never really say that they're different either. Though you could then argue there that we can never really say they're the same.
But I do agree whole heartedly that life is wonderful and shouldn't be this horrible thing that you feel you can't escape from. From past experiences I know what its like and now, partly to make sure it doesn't happen again but also because I've learnt things from what I went through, I try to live my life as best as I possibly can. And so might everyone else. But that doesn't stop me relapsing and spiraling down again. So people might try to see life as wonderful and happy, but it might not work for everyone. You can't always help how you feel.
So just to reitterate. I think in both cases, euthanasia and suicide, its always going to be a case of a horrible torture that you can't escape. Its just that usually euthanasia happens because of an illness of the body whereas people who commit suicide from depression its usually an illness of the mind. To me, that's the only real difference in the two.
Kelly
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Wouldn't you say though that if one is depressed, and I mean clinically depressed, diagnosed by a doctor or showing the symptoms of major depression, that they also won't ever recover. Depression is a disease of the mind. When someone is depressed they are tortured by it in most cases.
I have to agree and disagree with you on this. Every situation is different depending on the individual. When it comes to depression, I think a person's ability to recover depends on their strength of will, personality, and their situation in life. Having been in a deep depression myself, it is a long and hard road to recovery. But, there is that chance of recovery for those who are strong enough to fight for it. Deep depressions aren't a life sentence of pain and misery where the only way out is death. Granted, when you are in that state of mind, that certainly seems like the only option at that time. You can't fathom any other outcome, let alone ever being happy again. But there are options in most cases.
You've heard the term that when you hit rock bottom, there's no way but up. I didn't see those other options until after I had hit that bottom and started that climb back up. Problem is, that climb up is much tougher, longer, and harder than going down. If people aren't able to hold on long enough, they'll never see that climb. It's not easy, but it's possible.
That's the difference I think Alkisti was trying to make. There are options and a chance for recovery when you are in a state of depression. Not everyone makes it to that point, but the options are still there to those who hang on long enough.
But when the body's damaged beyond any kind of medical help, like in the case that Kristina mentioned, there is no hope and no options. At least where recovery is concerned. I think you still have options. Personally, I'd hate to be a burden on my loved-ones, but at the same time, if my mind was still there and in working order, I'd cherish every moment I had to see them and hear them, even if I couldn't respond back. I'd still know how they are and what they are doing. When your mind is intact, you just have to make the best of the situation, find the positive side to it. You might not be able to move, but you are still aware of those around you. You can still love and be loved by those you care about. Of course, this is just me. Not everyone will agree, of course. Once again, every situation is different. And unless you are actually living it, I'm sure it would be hard to judge for sure.
Yes Laura, that's exactly what I was trying to say.
I don't know if this is always the case, but the majority of suicides I've heard or read about were committed by "normal" people, who didn't need the assistance of a doctor or drugs. They were everyday people with major economical problems, teenagers who had noone to listen to them, older people who were left alone. People who are institutionalized are put there because of their serious case. These are the people who need immediate help. And these people are not expected to be treated as easily as the rest of us. They have fallen into some kind of coma of the spirit, which means that their body functions but their soul and mind are absent. But these cases are the rare ones. These people can not be judged for the mind plays games one can not control. However, I do believe that everyday people have other choices. Have you read a book called "Thirteen reasons why"? It's about a girl who commits suicide and explains in tapes why she did that. What I understood after finishing the book was that this girl didn't have issues. She just had noone to trust and people kept giving her the wrong answers. If someone had read between the lines, she wouldn't have done it. See? That's why I believe that suicide and euthanasia are two totally different things. But don't judge me wrong. Difference of opinions is more than welcome!
I don't know if this is always the case, but the majority of suicides I've heard or read about were committed by "normal" people, who didn't need the assistance of a doctor or drugs. They were everyday people with major economical problems, teenagers who had noone to listen to them, older people who were left alone. People who are institutionalized are put there because of their serious case. These are the people who need immediate help. And these people are not expected to be treated as easily as the rest of us. They have fallen into some kind of coma of the spirit, which means that their body functions but their soul and mind are absent. But these cases are the rare ones. These people can not be judged for the mind plays games one can not control. However, I do believe that everyday people have other choices. Have you read a book called "Thirteen reasons why"? It's about a girl who commits suicide and explains in tapes why she did that. What I understood after finishing the book was that this girl didn't have issues. She just had noone to trust and people kept giving her the wrong answers. If someone had read between the lines, she wouldn't have done it. See? That's why I believe that suicide and euthanasia are two totally different things. But don't judge me wrong. Difference of opinions is more than welcome!
Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about; if we have the right to live, surely we have the right to die?
And, if euthanasia is legalised, then it can be regulated; in places where prostitution is legal, it can be regulated to ensure the safety and health of all involved.
And, if euthanasia is legalised, then it can be regulated; in places where prostitution is legal, it can be regulated to ensure the safety and health of all involved.
Thanks to twinklepins for bringing that topic up. I wanted to post here forever but it just occured to me.
I want to say that I disagree with you twinklepins because suicide, just like most choices, affect other people as well. If a kid kills itself, the parents are the ones who will have to deal with the sadness for the rest of their life. So no. Just like you didn't decide when you'd be born, you can't decide when to die. Except for cases like terminal illness. You can't just ignore the people who love you.
Anyways, that's not the point I wanted to make. I'm watching every now and then a show called "True life" -I think- broadcasted by Mtv. It's about real-life experiences by teenagers and young adults.
This one episode was dedicated to acne and to the pills teenagers take in order to deal with it. The main problem with the pill subscribed in most acne cases is that it can cause many health and psychological problems. Doctors prefer that pill because it is stronger and more effective than anything else. Leaving the health risks aside (even though they can not be taken lightly), what put me in thoughts was the psychological factor. It was mentioned in the show that this pill can cause depression and lead even to suicide, especially if the patient is vulnerable or having psychological problems already. That's why many doctors prefer not to subscribe it to people with minor depression. And some patients decide not to take it, even though it seems to be the only solution to deal with the problem. There was actually one case in the show where a girl would not take the pill because her brother had killed himself while he was taking it. Doctors did not blame the acne pill, but she was convinced that this led to her brother's suicide.
So, despite everything else that might lead to suicide, shouldn't we feel worried by such cases? I mean if a drug can actually cause depression, how can we protect ourselves from falling in that trap? As a parent, would you let your kid take that pill? Or would you take the risk for your own self?
I also heard that sleep disorders can lead to suicide as well. Doesn't this (as well as the previous example) make suicide a more wide phenomenon that can touch all of us at any point without facing other issues (like family trouble, use of drugs etc)? It just made me wonder. Bio-chemical changes inside our body can lead to our death by our "choice". That's something to worry about.
I want to say that I disagree with you twinklepins because suicide, just like most choices, affect other people as well. If a kid kills itself, the parents are the ones who will have to deal with the sadness for the rest of their life. So no. Just like you didn't decide when you'd be born, you can't decide when to die. Except for cases like terminal illness. You can't just ignore the people who love you.
Anyways, that's not the point I wanted to make. I'm watching every now and then a show called "True life" -I think- broadcasted by Mtv. It's about real-life experiences by teenagers and young adults.
This one episode was dedicated to acne and to the pills teenagers take in order to deal with it. The main problem with the pill subscribed in most acne cases is that it can cause many health and psychological problems. Doctors prefer that pill because it is stronger and more effective than anything else. Leaving the health risks aside (even though they can not be taken lightly), what put me in thoughts was the psychological factor. It was mentioned in the show that this pill can cause depression and lead even to suicide, especially if the patient is vulnerable or having psychological problems already. That's why many doctors prefer not to subscribe it to people with minor depression. And some patients decide not to take it, even though it seems to be the only solution to deal with the problem. There was actually one case in the show where a girl would not take the pill because her brother had killed himself while he was taking it. Doctors did not blame the acne pill, but she was convinced that this led to her brother's suicide.
So, despite everything else that might lead to suicide, shouldn't we feel worried by such cases? I mean if a drug can actually cause depression, how can we protect ourselves from falling in that trap? As a parent, would you let your kid take that pill? Or would you take the risk for your own self?
I also heard that sleep disorders can lead to suicide as well. Doesn't this (as well as the previous example) make suicide a more wide phenomenon that can touch all of us at any point without facing other issues (like family trouble, use of drugs etc)? It just made me wonder. Bio-chemical changes inside our body can lead to our death by our "choice". That's something to worry about.
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I also heard that sleep disorders can lead to suicide as well. Doesn't this (as well as the previous example) make suicide a more wide phenomenon that can touch all of us at any point without facing other issues (like family trouble, use of drugs etc)? It just made me wonder. Bio-chemical changes inside our body can lead to our death by our "choice". That's something to worry about.
It's true, I am a major insomnia sufferer, and when I'm having the most trouble with that are the days when I linger slightly longer on bridges and feel darkest etc... I just feel I can't go on... Mind you, I almost always feel that, so meh.
I find it interesting that insomnia is supposed to lead to suicide but not in my experience, I get grouchy and that's it.
But on the subject of euthenasia, I think everyone is entitled to their opinion. But personaly I find the thought of being put to death quite scary. I would rather die of whatever I have. But for example for someone who is in a coma or cannot communicate their wishes who is euthenised, I find that wrong and again a very scary thought. It is also difficult in the way that even those who agree to it may only submit under the pressure of the moment. But what I find sadest of all in the situation is that you never know what the future brings. If I was in a coma for twenty years and woke up to die two days later, for me it would be worth waking up for the two days rather than having my life support machine switched off after ten years. I understand why some people make that choice but I don't agree with it.
But ultimately I believe that only God has the right to choose who lives and dies.
But on the subject of euthenasia, I think everyone is entitled to their opinion. But personaly I find the thought of being put to death quite scary. I would rather die of whatever I have. But for example for someone who is in a coma or cannot communicate their wishes who is euthenised, I find that wrong and again a very scary thought. It is also difficult in the way that even those who agree to it may only submit under the pressure of the moment. But what I find sadest of all in the situation is that you never know what the future brings. If I was in a coma for twenty years and woke up to die two days later, for me it would be worth waking up for the two days rather than having my life support machine switched off after ten years. I understand why some people make that choice but I don't agree with it.
But ultimately I believe that only God has the right to choose who lives and dies.
alkisti: There are a lot of medications that can lead to suicidal thoughts and increased depression--even the antidepressants prescribed to treat it! That's why SSRI's have so many warnings and why teenagers and young adults really shouldn't take them. They can lead to an increase in depression, suicidal thoughts, and even committing suicide. So there are a lot of medications that can make someone feel like that.
I don't know where I am on the subject of suicide. It's hard to judge for someone else that they don't have that choice, when I know that I have felt like doing that many times throughout my life. I once even got a police intervention so I didn't hurt myself. So it's hard for me to decide that someone else shouldn't. I don't know what's going on in their life. Maybe that really is the only solution.
I don't think it hardly ever is, though, because of how you do leave people behind. It's not just you that you affect if you commit suicide. You affect everyone who's ever known you. You affect your friends and family, who then miss you and wonder what they could have done to stop you, if there were signs they missed, etc. And then sometimes, there are even "copycat suicides," or a "suicide epidemic" where it seems like once one person kills themselves, then there is an increase in suicides over a period of time, and usually by the same method. I don't think that I, myself, could ever do that to the people who care about me.
But I guess that if you really had no one who cared about you, somehow, and that was the only way you could think of to get out of whatever was wrong (depression, terminal illness, whatever)...I don't know if I could honestly say that you shouldn't.
It's hard when you know what drives someone to do that, and I know that from both a psychology point of view and a personal one. Sometimes things are just too much.
I don't think suicide is really the answer to that, though. Not really.
I don't know where I am on the subject of suicide. It's hard to judge for someone else that they don't have that choice, when I know that I have felt like doing that many times throughout my life. I once even got a police intervention so I didn't hurt myself. So it's hard for me to decide that someone else shouldn't. I don't know what's going on in their life. Maybe that really is the only solution.
I don't think it hardly ever is, though, because of how you do leave people behind. It's not just you that you affect if you commit suicide. You affect everyone who's ever known you. You affect your friends and family, who then miss you and wonder what they could have done to stop you, if there were signs they missed, etc. And then sometimes, there are even "copycat suicides," or a "suicide epidemic" where it seems like once one person kills themselves, then there is an increase in suicides over a period of time, and usually by the same method. I don't think that I, myself, could ever do that to the people who care about me.
But I guess that if you really had no one who cared about you, somehow, and that was the only way you could think of to get out of whatever was wrong (depression, terminal illness, whatever)...I don't know if I could honestly say that you shouldn't.
It's hard when you know what drives someone to do that, and I know that from both a psychology point of view and a personal one. Sometimes things are just too much.I don't think suicide is really the answer to that, though. Not really.
Today someone (can't remember the name) spoke on The One Show on BBC ONE about Euthanasia and how they thought that if we can choose how we live then we should be able to choose how we die.
They also pointed out that in the states in America where Euthanasia is legal, 25 people over the past 4 years have used it, so the slippery slope thing isn't really in order...
Sorry for not making this post longer, but I've a succinct writing style....
They also pointed out that in the states in America where Euthanasia is legal, 25 people over the past 4 years have used it, so the slippery slope thing isn't really in order...
Sorry for not making this post longer, but I've a succinct writing style....
I think that suicide is a very selfish act, in most cases. As someone who has suffered from depression, anxiety, frequent panic attacks, agoraphobia and insomnia, I feel it is selfish to take your own life, knowing it will ruin your family and friend's lives. I know what it's like to feel suicidal. The only thing that stopped me was thinking about my family and friends and how it would affect them. People who kill themselves are taking the easy way out and don't give a rat's **** for anyone else but themselves.
Euthanasia, on the other hand, is something I support. If someone has only weeks or months to live, what's the point of staying in agony for the remainder of their life? In my opinion, it's almost like taking someone off a life support machine. If they're not really there anymore and have already expressed their desire to die with a little dignity intact, their wish should be granted. We had to decide whether or not to take my grandmother off life support and although I said no at the time, I realise now that it was the right thing to do and the best thing we could have done for her.
Euthanasia, on the other hand, is something I support. If someone has only weeks or months to live, what's the point of staying in agony for the remainder of their life? In my opinion, it's almost like taking someone off a life support machine. If they're not really there anymore and have already expressed their desire to die with a little dignity intact, their wish should be granted. We had to decide whether or not to take my grandmother off life support and although I said no at the time, I realise now that it was the right thing to do and the best thing we could have done for her.
Hello everyone.
Suicide:
Absolutely against! Suicide is a permanent end to a temporary problem. And how selfish, putting you're loved ones through the horror of you're death, knowing the kinds of things that they will ask themselves "Could i have done something to help? Should i have noticed the warning signs? If i had been paying more attention to him, would he still be alive?". How dare anyone put their family and friends through that
As Charlie Chaplin once said "Nothing is permanent in this wicked world, not even our troubles" 
Euthanasia:
For, but only in under certain conditions, 1. The very elderly. Some people are so vivacious, there is nothing worse for them to grow old and be unable to live as they once did. I think that once people reach a particular age (undecided as to which age exactly), the option of euthanasia should be open to them. Given, of course, that they are counselled for a period, just to make sure that they are certain and not acting whimsically. In "The lord of the Rings", the characters Aragorn and Eowyn have this coversation: Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?
Éowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valour has gone beyond recall or desire.'' I imagine that is what old age must feel like to some. 2. The terminally ill. Folks who have horrible, debilitating diseases should not be forced to endure a torturous death. What could be crueler?
Peace ♥
Suicide:
Absolutely against! Suicide is a permanent end to a temporary problem. And how selfish, putting you're loved ones through the horror of you're death, knowing the kinds of things that they will ask themselves "Could i have done something to help? Should i have noticed the warning signs? If i had been paying more attention to him, would he still be alive?". How dare anyone put their family and friends through that
As Charlie Chaplin once said "Nothing is permanent in this wicked world, not even our troubles" Euthanasia:
For, but only in under certain conditions, 1. The very elderly. Some people are so vivacious, there is nothing worse for them to grow old and be unable to live as they once did. I think that once people reach a particular age (undecided as to which age exactly), the option of euthanasia should be open to them. Given, of course, that they are counselled for a period, just to make sure that they are certain and not acting whimsically. In "The lord of the Rings", the characters Aragorn and Eowyn have this coversation: Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?
Éowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valour has gone beyond recall or desire.'' I imagine that is what old age must feel like to some. 2. The terminally ill. Folks who have horrible, debilitating diseases should not be forced to endure a torturous death. What could be crueler?
Peace ♥
Yesterday was the "World Suicide prevention day". This day is a reminder that suicide can reach everyone, no matter the age, the sex, or the social status. It is a very important problem of our society, and if awareness is raised, we might be able to "see the signs" and help people deal with their difficulties before adopting such a drastic "measure". You can find a statement for the WSPD here. It's very important for all of us to be aware of this situation to help the ones around us. I hope that none of us will every have to deal with such a case. It's tragic.
Suicide is a very touchy subject. Alot of times those people that do commit suicide have all of the classic signs and symptoms of going through with the act, but more often times than not are ignored by those around them. This may be due to the fact that alot of peoples' families may not know how to deal with depression and how to help the depressed person to seek medical treatment, or sadly in other cases they just ignore the signs, essentially ignoring the person in need, who alot of times takes their own life. I have seen this alot with the military. Troops that have been deployed for a year or more, see alot of things that most of us could probaly never imagine. Well they come back home, feeling depressed not sure what to do, they try and seek treatment, but sometimes the treatment is not good enough. Doctors prescribe loads of medicine to help soldiers to "deal with" their everyday nightmares that they have. But again in a lot of cases the flashbacks and the nightmares are too much to handle and sadly the soldier feels that they only way out of their private hell is suicide. Suicide is never an answer to anything...It is a permanent solution to a temporary problem...
Euthanasia on the other hand, the way I see it if there is a person that is suffering severely from cancer or some other debilitating illness, if it is their wish to be euthanized then so be it. I have seen many family members of mine suffer for too long due to cancer, and I feel as if it were an option for them to have been euthanized then they probaly would have opted for it. I don't think that a person should have to suffer in this world if they no longer want to be in it because of the pain of their illness. We euthanise our beloved pets when they get too old or sick to go on...Why? Because it breaks our hearts to see them suffer. It should be ones right to have this procedure done, and if it's regulated like so many other things then it would not be a problem...
Euthanasia on the other hand, the way I see it if there is a person that is suffering severely from cancer or some other debilitating illness, if it is their wish to be euthanized then so be it. I have seen many family members of mine suffer for too long due to cancer, and I feel as if it were an option for them to have been euthanized then they probaly would have opted for it. I don't think that a person should have to suffer in this world if they no longer want to be in it because of the pain of their illness. We euthanise our beloved pets when they get too old or sick to go on...Why? Because it breaks our hearts to see them suffer. It should be ones right to have this procedure done, and if it's regulated like so many other things then it would not be a problem...
Many people commit suicide by having different reasons. Mostly the person who commits this kind of activity experiences some major problems with themselves. In most cases,people who have been experiencing such depression,anxiety and other unlikely feelings would let them do this act even if they will know that this would lead them into death. we might say that this would be an unselfish act, for which they would let themselves put into death but they have the reason why they was forced to do this.
Euthanasia, in other words can be define as mercy killing is really an unethical act. This was mostly been done by doctors to their patients that don't have the chance to be alive.
I really don't agree with this, in which this is not a proper act over the two issues. We don't have the right to make any move to kill ourselves,or even other people.This is still against on my will.
Euthanasia, in other words can be define as mercy killing is really an unethical act. This was mostly been done by doctors to their patients that don't have the chance to be alive.
I really don't agree with this, in which this is not a proper act over the two issues. We don't have the right to make any move to kill ourselves,or even other people.This is still against on my will.
On the subject of suicide. I recently started working with others who are suicidal while myself looking for support in trying to stay alive and resist my suicidal thoughts. For people who have never been in a position where they feel the need/desire to die for whatever reason then it is of course easy to call suicidal people selfish and cowardly.
I have lost count of how many times I have attempted suicide but the number matters not; rather what matters is the fact that I am still here, that I didn't do it and that I have learned from it.
Instead of condemning those who attempt suicide or even just think about it, others should try to understand so they can help. I recently helped one man get over his suicidal feelings. Now his life is on the up, he is happy again and we have developed a strong friendship through the problems which, in darker days, would have cost us our lives.
Through my work with suicidal people I have learned a lot, for example that no matter how bad a position I was ever in, that there is always someone worse off but who keeps on fighting. I also learned that things cann be turned around and that you really can make your own life better through strength and hope, perseverance and determination.
The night is darkest just before the dawn but the dawn will come for all of us, no matter how bad things seem.
Don't judge unless you yourself have been through the same, yes it may be the cowardly way out but people will always die as long as the prejudice against them lives.
I have lost count of how many times I have attempted suicide but the number matters not; rather what matters is the fact that I am still here, that I didn't do it and that I have learned from it.
Instead of condemning those who attempt suicide or even just think about it, others should try to understand so they can help. I recently helped one man get over his suicidal feelings. Now his life is on the up, he is happy again and we have developed a strong friendship through the problems which, in darker days, would have cost us our lives.
Through my work with suicidal people I have learned a lot, for example that no matter how bad a position I was ever in, that there is always someone worse off but who keeps on fighting. I also learned that things cann be turned around and that you really can make your own life better through strength and hope, perseverance and determination.
The night is darkest just before the dawn but the dawn will come for all of us, no matter how bad things seem.
Don't judge unless you yourself have been through the same, yes it may be the cowardly way out but people will always die as long as the prejudice against them lives.
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