Where exactly did Crouch Jr. get enough Polyjuice Potion to turn himself into Moody for an entire year?? I don't think he's really the type to make it himself... and you have to take the potion every hour or so if you want to maintain the appearance do you not?

In CoS Hermione says that the Polyjuice Potion is the most complicated she's seen, and it has to be made a month in advance.

How on earth could Crouch conceal that much of the Potion all year long? So few people seem adept at potion making... Snape, Draco and Hermione that we've seen... I doubt Crouch is one of the lucky few.

I'm growing more and more certain that this is why Voldemort trusts Snape, despite his position at Hogwarts. I think that Snape brewed the potion for Crouch all year long, and I also believe that Snape may have helped LV avert death all this time.

I don't think Snape would still be alive if Voldemort didn't trust him, and at very least Lucius Malfoy wouldn't still be friends with him if there were any inkling of Snape siding with Dumbledore on the DE side... and while I'm not sure whether or not Snape is evil (and I hope not, cause he's my favorite character), I don't think that we can exactly trust him.

Ooh! Ooh! Controversy!!!

No, seriously though, it's something I've been wondering myself. I'm not sure if it was here or on the Mugglenet forums, but someone mentioned before that it was strange where Crouch managed to get that much polyjuice potion. I mean, if it has to be taken every hour, they must have had an entire wing of Hogwarts to keep brewing it, not to mention poor old Mad-Eye would have been as bald as a billiard ball after having so much hair plucked!!!

The main counter-point I've seen to that would be that maybe the potion would last longer and be stronger (ooh...I'm a poet and I didn't know it... ) if it was brewed by a powerful wizard...er...like Snape.

I think, after hearing what JKR had to say on the subject this week, that the side Snape really is on is still very much open to debate. Everyone (including me, sadly) who is fond of our lovely, greasy little potions master would like to think he's still with Dumbledore, but.....

Maybe it is possible that Snape was brewing the potion....(I can't say for sure what I really think about that because it's been so long since I read GoF)...I mean, he felt the Dark Mark burning just like Karkarov did, and he didn't turn into a gibbering wreck. He should have needed a change of underwear, knowing that Voldemort was on his way back and knowing how he betrayed him by going back to Dumbledore.....but he didn't. 'Flee then, if you must. I will make your excuses,' (paraphrased slightly - don't have book in front of me!).....who exactly would Snape be making excuses to?

And why was Karkarov still friendly with Snape after he gave evidence against him at the Wizengamot? And why is Snape still friendly with Lucius Malfoy, one of Voldemort's inner circle?

Mmm.....there's a dark side to our Snape....oh, yes...**chuckles manically**

The quote is from the Yule Ball bit when Snape is talking to Karkarov...I haven't got the book at the mo, but it's definitely in that chapter...I was listening to the audio book in the car the other day....

Exactly my thinking...highly suspicious. But then, I think JKR probably meant it to be. If she'd wanted us to know who he was going to make excuses to, she would have said 'Dumbledore', 'The Ministry' or whatever, but she didn't...

Definitely something strange going on there...

Something's rotten in the state of Denmark

Yeah, I'm sort of weirded out by all this. Until yesterday I was fairly certain that Snape was on the side of good, but since reading the most recent transcript, and reading into some clues... I'm beginning to doubt it.

I mean, atm, I think he still is on Dumbledores side, and if he is doing the potion brewing for LV as suspected then I think he's doing it in order to keep up the appearance of a faithful follower. He couldn't very well refuse LV and expect to be looked highly upon.

Hmm... come to think of that.... that could be an issue.

Crouch took the potion hourly through his flask, the one that he always drank from in the book. It also said that Wormtail and Crouch had prepared the amount needed of Polyjuice potion beforehand.

Plus, when Snape told Karkaroff to run, I found that he meant that he would make an excuse to the ministry and Dumbledore, so no one would get suspicious. Severus would stay because he was not a coward and would face Voldemort if the time came.

Wormtail and Crouch? Somehow I find that even more difficult to believe, mainly cause Wormtail hardly seems adept at *anything*... potion making seems quite a bit beyond his level from what we know so far.

Oh well, I'm rereading GoF right now anyway... so hopefully will find more on this...

The fact that they apparently made a years worth of polyjuice potion in advance seems weird as well... where could that much potion be stored? Honestly, that would be a lot of potion... *wonders*

You could be right about Snape's telling Karkaroff to flee Wednesday, but what is it that led you to believe this? I mean, obviously it's a possibility... a good one even... but it's also possible that he could have been referring to LV as the one he would be making excuses to. So I'm just curious why you believe it to be the first one

Well, we know that Crouch was breaking into snape's office to get more ingredients for the polyjuice potion (harry sees him on the marauders map), so I assume he was consistently brewing the potion year round. We know that all the professors have offices, but what kind of living quarters do they have? He could have been brewing the potion in his living quarters. It is a really good point though, I suppose I just really want Snape to be redeemed. The plot, like the potion, thickens.

I want Snape to be redeemed also, and until like two days ago I thought for sure he would be. Now I'm beginning to have my suspicions, and well, hmm... I don't know. I hope he does redeem himself somehow (he already has in a lot of ways) but I don't know which way it's going to go for him now..

That's true about the living quarters also, we've no idea what they are like. Other than Hagrid's that is, and Dumbledores... if that is where he lives, and not just his office that is.

He could have brewed the potion in his quarters, but it still seems iffy. And now I'm confused as to whether the potion was all brewed in advance or whether it was brewed as needed (which would be very tricky to do).

Hmm... what a tangled web we weave.

I agree with Sonja, I think Crouch was doing it by himself. And Wormtail should be a squib! As for Snape, he will turn back to the good side, but most probably if Harry dies. Which I think he will, just so she doesn't have to write more books.

Crouch was under the influence of Veritaserum when he gave that piece of information about how he managed to get the Polyjuice potion and all that other stuff.

Plus, I was convinced that Snape was speaking of Dumbledore and the others because he didn't even go to the Death Eater meeting that other night, Voldemort was obviously speaking of him with the thought of revenge at the gathering. But I do know that he must have redeemed himself to the Dark Lord so he could spy for Dumbledore. That's mostly all of the information I could gather that convinced me.

We don't know for sure that Snape wasn't at that meeting in the cemetary, he could well have been. There were a number of DE's that Voldemort walked by without naming, and I doubt that if Snape was there, that Voldemort would have mentioned his name in front of Harry. (especially if he believes Snape to be working as a spy for him at Hogwarts).

That's true that Crouch was under veritaserum for the information, but it is possible even that he had a memory charm put on him... and his memories were altered, so while he was indeed telling the truth from his recollection, it may not have been what actually had happened.

Do you think that Voldemort would have left even the slightest possibility open for Crouch to spoil his plan by telling everyone the basics of it? Surely he knew that if Crouch were caught, they would use Veritaserum on him in order to make him talk.

It's also possible that the veritaserum wasn't real, as it might not have been if Snape is really on the side of LV.

All these things are just possibilities, and however unlikely (though I don't believe them to be that unlikely really), they could be true.

Wow...there's an awful lot of very interesting points there from all....

But, just to stick my two-cents worth into the mix....

I personally don't think that Snape was there that night. Voldemort would have had no reason to hide that information from Harry, seeing as how he intended to kill him anyway (which would have been really stupid...knowing about the prophecy...ruining the entire plot of OotP ) I don't think JKR is that devious...she pulled enough fog over the whole issue by Voldemort talking about the couple of DE's that weren't there...Bella..etc..as well as hinting at Karkarov's cowardice (which K was...fretting about like an old woman, clinging to Snape's apron strings for the entire book ) and 'one who betrayed me' (or words to that effect)...I mean, who else would he be referring to? Why would JKR put that in about a character we haven't met yet? It has to be Snape, it's the only logical choice....the loyal servant was obviously Crouch...I mean that would cover all the known Death Eaters then...why even mention about some obscure traitor who hasn't been introduced yet?

And I think it's also fairly clear that the potion was being brewed constantly all year - which was the reason Harry saw Crouch in Snape's office on the map...although it is entirely possible that the polyjuice potion is what he was constantly drinking from the hip flask. That would be the only logical thing to do, really...the other teachers would have noticed if pseudo-Mad-Eye kept disappearing every hour...

There's another point I'd like to make about that, but I want to be sure of my facts before I mention it, so I'm going to check out the book first....

So Crouch broke into Snape's office on a regular basis? Snape doesn't seem to miss much, don't you think he'd notice?

Well, he said he was constantly searching it, so if he just took a very little at a time, do you think snape would notice all at once, especially if he wasn't looking to see if anything was taken?

And one a different note...It seems like one of Voldemorts great strenghts, besides his ability to divide people, is that no one of his suporters knows too much. The death eaters don't know all the other death eaters, and I'm sure he doesn't tell all of his plans to just one person. By not knowing all of his plans, this prevents his followers from betraying him and giving too much info. away

Good point. All the greats would know not to have all their men in one place at one time, or have all their men knowing everything...you never win a war like that...

Anywho, severus...yeah, I think he was breaking in all year, but yes, he was also constantly searching Snape's office for Dark stuff so he probably took bits then as well.

I never found that quote I was going to look for 'cos my nephews have been driving me craazy all day, but I'm pretty sure that Snape approached Harry about it because he thought that he was the one pilfering...boomslang skin and Gillyweed in particular...so he did notice stuff was missing. I think that's why pseudo-Mad-Eye asked to borrow the Marauders Map...'cos then he could see who was coming and be able to pilfer in private... (doesn't that sound awful!!! )...not to mention the fact, of course, that then Harry wouldn't see 'Barty Crouch' on the map when he's standing right in front of 'Mad-Eye Moody' or whatever....

I should really get back to reading the novel, I think I've only gotten through three chapters of GoF so far... cause I keep stopping to write stuff down and then get off on tangents like this lol. Go figure. lmao.

No I don't think any of LV's death eaters knew everything he had planned, but we see in GoF that he does like an audience... (he had all his DEs watch when he was going to kill Harry in the graveyard)... so if something big was going down, you'd imagine that at least some of them would know. And I think that some of the DEs would know more than others... and I think Bellatrix, Lucius and Snape would be some of these people...

The thing that boggles me about snape is that in SS/PS he is preventing Quirel/Voldy from killing Harry. And we know that Snape knew about him and was confronting him. Wouldn't Voldemort realize that snape was betraying him? But in OotP, Snape is presumably still playing both sides. I'm not quite sure what this adds up to, but I know it doesn't seem right to me.

wow hmm... that's a really good question. i'm not sure if i'd thought about that...

I've always wondered about that myself, and most people who think Snape is a goody underneath it all refer to PS/SS as evidence that Snape has to be on Dumbledore's side because if he wasn't, then he would have been trying to help Quirrel, wouldn't he? On the other hand, we never did get to know exactly what went on during those conversations (other than what Quirrel said, and I don't think we should trust anything that came from him...too many ulterior motives). Why didn't Snape go to Dumbledore with his suspicions? Why didn't he go to Madame Pomfrey when he was bitten instead of Filch? Very odd....

Snape...truly the International Man of Mystery...(as someone else pointed out on another thread!)....Groooovy, baby.....

Now that you mention it, what is with Snape and Filch? They did seem rather chummy in PS... and why would Hogwarts have a caretaker who was a squib for that matter? Doesn't make a lot of sense really... and he seems to hate the job, so why does he stay there?

But hmm...

Do we know for sure that Snape didn't go to Pomphrey? I think you're right though, it doesn't seem like he did... if she had healed him, he likely wouldn't have been walking with a limp.

I guess there are (as usual) a couple options for Snape acting as he did...

1) Snape didn't tell Dumbledore about anything because he wanted to get credit for stopping Quirrel, he does afterall, long for recognition (see PoA).

2) Snape wanted to stop Quirrel from getting the stone because he wanted to get credit for getting the Stone himself, he does afterall, long for recognition (lol).

Neither would explain why Voldemort wouldn't be angry with him though... because naturally, LV wanted the stone regardless of who it was got it for him...

Going to have to think on this some more......

Those are two excellent points. Snape's thirst for recognition certainly makes him a bit manic...he was borderline psycho in PoA, wasn't he?

Mmm...maybe that's it, you know. It would explain his actions - and it would certainly prove himself to DD, 'Hey, I stopped LV all by myself, not you precious Harry Potter so '....

Or, equally, he would have received the same recognition from LV if he had recovered the stone and handed it over.....

Arrghh! Which brings us right back where we started! Snape's duality!!! He could be on either side! Oh shucks, my head hurts now....

Hope your headache is better, BTW, severus!!!

Actually I think it's a bit worse, but thank you for the thought, that's very nice of you

And yeah, Snape was insane at the end of PoA... I remember the first time reading the book, thinking that he was really unpredictable and possible a bit crazy... I thought he was really cruel at the end too, though I suppose I understand where it was coming from quite a bit more now.

Snape is rather borderline though I think, I'm fairly certain he's playing both sides and that is why we simply can't trust him... no matter how much he wants to redeem himself, and how much we want him to... he wants recognition, and I think he'll go where he can get it.

(though if the price is too high he may still come to his senses... eventually)

Well Crouch took the potion with the flask, and I'm sure if he's a Death Eater, than he has some knowlege as how to make a potion.

Why would he? The DEs already have someone to make potions for them, much better ones than I'm sure that Crouch can make.

Lupin says in PoA that while he's a good wizard, he doesn't have the skills required for potion making. So just because someone is good at magic, doesn't mean that they're good at potion making...

In PS Snape says, "Since there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic." Then follows by saying "I don't expect you will expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses ... I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew clory, even stopper death -- if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach."

The important parts there in this topic are that he believes many of them will hardly believe this is magic, and his saying "if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." In other words, most of his students are no good at the subject... and I'm fairly certain that just because people are deatheaters, doesn't mean they can brew a good potion. Lupin was a Marauder and he couldn't...

Snape could be playing both sides, that makes sense, and whichever comes out the most powerful will probably be the one he openly supports. Wasn't it said somewhere that Slytherins always have their best intrests first? It seems that the wolfsbane potion is extremely difficult or risky to make, since lupin also says that he has a hard time finding someone to make it for him. I doubt that polyjuice is extremely difficult, since three sencond years were able to make it

yes, but hermione is a very intelligent witch, so =\

about which side snape is on, i have positively no clue whatsoever because i'm so confused. he seems like such a mean nasty person, but a mean nasty person who does good only when he needs to. i'm just hoping that he really is good after all. i wonder, does he know the prophecy? if he does, he'll be in deep erm poop. (sorry i'm immature, i cant help but to use phrases like this)

he could help harry try to defeat lord voldemort and harry will life, so then snape has then returned the favor to james. OR snape can try to help voldemort defeat harry so that he doesnt get killed by voldemort. BUT what i read about recognition, what if he helps harry, and then he could be one of the heros of the second war, etc. voldemort would give him recognition if he does help him defeat harry, but snape'll still be the servent of voldemort, catering to his every whim, and eventually kill him at the end. just a thought

back to the polyjuice potion, it does seem very weird. the potion takes a long time to make, so how can he possibly be moody almost every single hour everyday? unless he has like 500 mini cauldrons boiling somewhere...

In the book, (I know, 'cos I've just finished reading that bit!) Ron does help a bit - he adds some of the ingredients and stuff...and that's basically all making a potion involves, right?

Ah, who am I to talk, anyway? I can't even boil an egg and there a re people out there who can make banquets out of leftovers...cooking's kind of like potion making I guess, huh?

Anywho....as I've said before, he wouldn't need to have millions of cauldrons on the go all at the same time. He'd only need 2 - one that's brewing right now, another one with a month's supply already made from which he fills his flask. Once that second cauldron was empty, the first one would be ready, so then he'd be able to start again...

Sorry...that sounds a bit like a solution from one of those logic problems books, doesn't it??

Anyway, if Pseudo-Mad Eye wasn't drinking the potion from the flask, what was he drinking all the time? I mean, we know the real Mad Eye had a bit of an obsession about only drinking from his own cup 'cos he thought people were out to poison him, but that would suit Crouch really well, wouldn't it? A perfect excuse for why he needs to carry the flask around with him all the time.... And JKR loves hiding little things like that - for example, the bit in CoS where she talks about Mr Weasley having to stop the car 3 times on the way to the station - once for Ginny's diary...and we all know how important that was to the story. She loves hiding significant points in insignificant places like that.....the books are full of them....all those werewolf references would be another example....

Oh, yeah, I know he was drinking the potion from the flask. Not sure who you're directing that comment to, smiles.

Those would have to be pretty big cauldron's though to have a months supply of Polyjuice Potion brewing in them.

No-one in particular, mate!! Just making a point, that's all....

But yeah, huge cauldrons....not your usual run-of-the-mill stove-top ones... I guess he'd have to have a pretty big room to hide them though, huh? And how did he manage to get them into the castle?

Dagnamit!! I don't know....I give up.....I just don't know how Crouch managed to do it....but I guess he must have found a way somehow...

Hmmm maybe owls could send the potion?

Someone mentioned Crouch and Wormtail made the potion? Which Crouch? If it was his father, the guy does work at the Ministry and he's an intelligent person. Perhaps he has the gift of potion-making. The impostor Moody could've made it in the bathroom - like Hermione, Harry, and Ron. I suppose that sort of is a possibility?

The one impersonating Mad-Eye Moody could've gotten it every week at Hogsmeade or something. . . .

I believe Snape is good, no matter how nasty he is. Crouch broke into his office, it's not like Snape let him take the things in his cabinet. He likes Slytherins but I mean, some teachers just play favorites more than others. We know Snape helps Harry in the first book. His craziness in PoA was because of Sirius - that's just something in his past that he held a grudge for during the rest of his life.

Snape's Veritaserium in GoF couldn't have been fake because they used it on Winky too. (They're from the same flask right? I can't refer to the book from the top of my head)

No matter how cold he is to students, I want Snape to be good! For all of the people in the Order. Dumbledore has good judgment, despite what other people think. Hagrid and Trelawney are good people. If he trusts Snape, then I trust him too.

Huge caudrons, you say?

Like huge industrial size ones?

Like could maybe be used for cooking, perhaps?

Cooking for lots and lots of people?

Now, this is just a theory that popped into my head, and I've just woken up from a nap, so feel free to yell at me if it's silly, I kinda got it from what Dana said about making potions being like cooking....but...do you think there'd be such cauldrons in the kichen? The kitchen full of friendly house-elves that are happy to let anyone saunter in there and have much food and so on as thay want? Especially for a Hogwart's teacher?

Cos I'd imagine there'd need to be some quite huge cooking vessels in that kitchen...even with an army of house-elves with the best will in the world, a bunch of normal pans that size wouldn't be much good for coooking for all the students at Hogwarts...

Reckon they could have let him use one of those? Cos they're pretty no-questions-asked, down there, aren't they?

Mmm...now there's a thought....Winky coud have helped him I guess, couldn't she? But then again, she lived in the kitchens and probably would have seen her master down there...she would have loved to see him, I doubt she'd have kept it to herself if she had...after all the disgrace of being sacked.....but maybe she could have helped him and kept it to herself...but wouldn't Dobby have mentioned it?

Oh dear....that didn't make much sense, did it? Lol.....well, I guess I shouldn't have had that second pint of Guinness lunchtime....

Well it could have been that he was polyjuiced when he went down there anyway...and that Winky had no idea anyway...possibly...

Ah....yeah.....right..... Doh! **slaps self for being stupid**

I didn't think about that......

Course he could have......

Just goes to show that the best of us have our off days, huh? *heh heh heh**

My dear, it was the stout talking...*giggles*

Yeah, my thought was less that the house-elves would have been directly helping him, more that they just kinda turned a blind eye and let the potion bubble away merrily...

The first thing I thought of when someone brought up where they would store the cauldron was that brilliant trunk that Moody was in for the entire school year. I don't remember it ever saying how big it was, but it could possibly have fit cauldrons. And it would convienent since Moody was down there, and Crouch needed his hair. I don't know, just a thought...

I've been really debating on whether Snape is good or bad. I'm not sure if he's spying or not, since he didn't show up to the DE meeting, and VD said he would have to die or be punished. I'm too lazy too look it up right now. Unless Snape redeemed himself. But I know DD must have a good reason to trust him, but I really want to know the full reason. For now, I trust Snape, but he has more of a chance then anyone else to slip and give VD information.

If Snape is a spy, then he would have to act as normal as usual, meaning that he would still have to be close with Lucius, and the other DEs. He can't make himself seem suspicious, VD is very smart, he would figure it out. And if he had to redeem himself he could always say something along the lines of not being able to Apparate or Disapparate on Hogwarts grounds. But then the question would come up as how Karkaroff was able to do it.

Haha, I keep jumping around different subjects. Just writing them as they come to me! Anyway....Winky wouldn't have recognized Crouch if he was drinking Polyjuice Potion to look like Moody. And even Crouch was smart enough to know that it wouldn't go over well if anyone ran into him looking like himself around the corridors. He's supposed to be dead, and he wouldn't take that chance and possibly blow his cover. *His job would have been a lot easier if he would have just transformed something else of Harry's into a Portkey. Perhaps, his pillow, or a book or even a quill. Anything Harry would touch on a daily basis. That always made me wonder.* Okay, sorry, I got a bit off track there for a minute. It was just a question that's been bothering me for awhile.

What do you think about everything I brought up? Any good? I wouldn't be surprised if none of it made any sense... I can't think straight. I'm starting to get yet another headache.

I dont think he did it in his trunk
1. There were no cauldrons or anything in the trunk I dont think he would drag one down there every time he made the potion

2. The real Moody would have seen something and told Dumbledore about it if he thought it was important

Maybe JKR will tell us in the last book

btw. what happened to Barty Crouch Jr.? he was given the Dementors Kiss right?

Yes I totally agree that hermione did all the work!

but i definately think that Barty must have been stealing the ingredients from snape, it hints at it ally through the book, and since I still trust snape, I don't think he would do that. Barty seemed like a capable wizard, im sure he could brew polyjuice.

I'm suprised no-one has brought this up (or if they have I missed it) why not the Room of Requirment? Voldemort spent almost all of his school time uncovering Hogwarts secrets (Chamber of Secretes) so there is a possibility he knew about the Room of Requirment and told Moody exactly how to get in, when Harry visits it in HBP does anyone remember if he saw any cauldrons or anything in there?

What is not real clear, is how much time a "flaskful" lasts. Does he need the whole flask for an hour, or does one flask last a week/ month/ year? As to volume, perhaps that trunk that was able to hide the real Mad-Eye was also large enough to house the backup supply previously brewed by Crouch Jr.? We do know that at some point, Barty stole the ingredients from SS, because Snape tried to blame Harry for the theft. Oh well, maybe we can't ever really answer this one satisfactorily and will have to leave it to Deus ex Machina (I translate that as "god in the machinery" - stuff that has to happen, just happens)

Obviously,Crouch Jr. wasn't able to make this kind of potion,so I've got two people who could have given him the polyjuice potion:

Snape:the best one to make this work.He knows lots of things about making potions,[Spoiler]remember his potions' book from sixth year; he's the half-blood prince[/Spoiler].I think he is the only one who could get a big amount of ingredients to make this potion for a whole year.

Another Deatheather: another one was making this job during Crouch Jr. was in Hogwarts and he or she was sending him the potion in little and equal amounts.In the fourth film Crouch Jr. show us a box with little bottles in Moody's office when he was looking for polyjuice at the end of the story.

I've read that some people think Hermione was the person who made the potion.No way!

i don't think snape helped woth the potion, remember that crouch stole boomslang skin from him? if they were working together all he'd have to do was ask or something. and i think i remember reading in the book somewhere in GoF that it was wormtail who brewed the potion...

I actually don't think snape helped with the potion...
he is never been much of a "Helper" to the other death eaters...nor has he been friendly with many of them (with the exception of Lucius Malfoy)...
So yes...it seems unlikely...
but how on earth could hermione have made the potion!?

personally, I think Crouch Jr. himself made the potion...

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i think that someone was helping barty crouch jr although i dont think that it was snape because snape accuses harry of stealing the supplies for polyjuice potion from his cupboard plus im sure that barty crouch must have some talent at brewing potions if he was able to defeat moody an ex auror so he has to be talented as for how he brewed so much potion i think that this was a plan that had been thought through very carefully and that the potion was brewed ever since barty crouch jr could defeat his fathers imperious curse

[size=1]sorry for the complete lack of punctuation