One of our members had posted this elsewhere on the site but I think it is best suited for here! hope you can all help them out!
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Hello smile.gif

May I ask you something as english native speakers what I as a german with school english knowledge don't know how to deal with? I am from a german Harry Potter forum at:

*mod edit*

I am talking about the prophecy, the original text is:

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies....and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives…The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...

I think you discussed this already in this forum, but I have just a few questions about the language and how it is used in this text because as not native english speaking people we don't know if this normal way to speak or it the grammar is special in any way...

So my main attention lies on

"born as the seventh month dies..."

is this the same as to say: "born when the seventh month dies"?

and is

"and either must die at the hand of the other"

is this the same to say "either must die FROM the hand of the other" or are this different cases?
When I read this prophecy the first time, it sounds odd for me especially how it is expressed with it's speciall grammar. Or is this absolutly normal to say it like this?

It would be very nice if you can help us with this language "problems".

Hi everyone

Thanks pigwidgeon to put my message to the right place.

I really have to say sorry and thanks to you and Nick, you're absolutely right. I should've read the introduction and rules first, I was heading off to fast but I admit it's obligatory!

I therefore will go and do this right now.

Regards,

_Tonks_

Hello, can anyone of you say me what exactly the prophecy said, i don't remember. And another question ... what did dumbledore tell harry about how voldemort knows everything about this prophecy?
It s bizarre (sorry for my english ;-) I m portuguese and live in Luxemburg, where i speak french and german. I read the books in german)

[COLOR=purple]He Only That he have to kill Harry....At First he didn't know who kill....But ....Well...I don't remember how does he know that is Harry he have to kill ?

Hi everyone...I am going to make this a poll only as there are already many topics open around the forum that discuss what the prophecy could mean..they can be found in the Department of Mysteries, Book 5 and Book 6 and Book 7 fourms..

You will still be able to vote on the poll but not able to make a response!

All prophecies always come true, not matter what. But if you interperate them wrong, then you think that they are wrong. People assumed that The Prophecy is about Harry and Voldemort, but they could be wrong. For example, Harry could turn evil, powerfull and evil. His child then might be the The Chosen One. It says that his/her parents must have thrice defied him. that could mean that Harry and whoever he marries defied Voldemort 3 times, together. Then, the affect on Hary after killing would be him turning evil. So then, Harry's kid just needs to be born at the end of July. Harry's kid will be marked as his equal because , assuming that it is a boy, will look exactly like Harry, except for the scar. The kid will be a parsellmouth, but Harry will not know that. So then he will have the power the Dark Lord knows not. Or he will be a naturall born animagus. So, it can work. JKR never says that the prophecy is only talking about one Dark Lord. See, it fits. Also, if this was the case, that weould mean that there would be more Harry Potter books after the 7th.


~Prod

two points:
1) like it has been said already, and as Dumbledore says to harry what was destroyed was only a record of the prophecy kept by the ministry. it's just like a file that the ministry has, if the file is destroyed, the thing the file was about does not cease to be
2) secondly and most importantly, in the 6th book Dumbledore says (i don't remember the exact words right now) "do you think all prophecies in the ministry are fullfilled? No. The prophecies only become true as long as people put store by them" again, this weren't the exact words, but that was the gist of the message. bottom line, prophecoes are not always fullfilled

I think that prophecies do not necessarily come true. Whether they come true or not may depend on future actions and events that could turn out one way or another, like in the case of Harry becoming the Chosen One simply because Voldemort had decided to murder him instead of letting him (or Neville) be. So a prophecy, at best, reflects what might come true; our own actions as well as other people's can intervene.

A prophecy seems to be nothing more or less than a glimpse of part of a future alternative reality. Its existence can serve to point out that there is a probability of the events occurring, but should be taken as no more than that ... Voldemort's actions clearly show that it is equally dangerous to meddle with prophecy as it is to meddle with Time. I'm sure it is for this reason that a record of prophecies is kept in the Department of Mysteries. It would be very interesting to study old prophecies and find out why certain ones have not come to pass and others have. Maybe it will lead to a greater understanding of the fluidity and inflexibility of Time.

I do not think that Nevil is going to be the dark lord, no offense. Remember what DD said about the prophosys not really leading? About it more being your actions that make your fait? Well, I think that the prophosies being held in different places. Maybe, some proisies are read wrong, and they never come true. Also, if the prophosie that broke came that realated to Harry, don't you think that DD would have followed it and tried to protect it too? Do you think that the veil had anything to do with the prophosies? I also agree with indiaz dumbest criminal about the wording not quite right. I think it is something like:
After the solstice will come a new chance for rights, and none will come after that.
I mean by what I wrote, that Harry would come, and he would be the only one who could put things right, and completly defeat the dark lord. There would be no other chances after him. My idea would also fit with the prophisie that DD had been keeping from him for such a long time.
"Neither can live while the other survives"
I think my conclusion would work, but does anyone see any doubts?

hey,,
im confused because in one of the books doesnt Trelawney claim to be the first seer since her great grandmother ?


then how could there be so MANY proficieys ? <--- i know thats spelt wrong

i need a reply someone *smiles*


thank-you love lauren xxxx

EDIT: oh and i think its book 5- OotP trelawney says this

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Alright, I'm not sure if this has been brought up...I'm sure it has but I have no idea where it is...I did the search but didn't find anything except on how prophecies are made...ANYWAY

Maybe this little bit fits here…

“The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies....and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."



Going by a dictionary we can interpret these words differently…

-vanquish=defeats
-approaches=comes in space or time
-thrice=three times
-equals=same
-either=one or the other
-survives=alive or is in existence

So the prophecy can in turn be interpreted like this:

…The one with power to defeat the Dark Lord comes in space or time….Born to those who have three times opposed or resisted him, born as July ends…and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not…and one or the other must die at the hand of the other while the other is alive or in existence…The one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord will be born as July ends…

-Voldemort will potentially be defeated by someone who was either approaching Dumbledore as he sat there listening to Trelawney, or someone to be born.

-this person’s parents will have defied Voldemort three times. This could mean running away from him, spoke out against him, or something else.

-Marking him as an equal and having a power the dark lord knows not can be tricky to interpret. The obvious choice would be Harry and his scar, along with love being that power.

-Perhaps this is what it is: the person to be born and the Dark Lord will have to fight or battle and kill the other. But it could also have something to do with killing him later, or any other scenario in which one of them lives and the other dies. However, it also states “while the other survives.” Whoever comes out of that confrontation just has to be in existence in order for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

Does anyone have a different interpretation on this? Something to add? Agree? Disagree? Be angry because I’ve ruined your life for the couple minutes it might have taken you to read this? I’m just revising something, I haven’t added my theory yet though…I’m still between theories on numerous subjects now…so I’m all ears or whatever the expression is!

Take this for instance…in Macbeth, he was given a prophecy of sorts that he would be king and no one would defeat him except someone not born of a woman, and the wood of forest would march on his castle. Sorry if that’s wrong…But as we find out, that person to defeat him was I guess not born naturally from a woman so he wasn’t necessarily born of a woman…and wood did indeed march on his castle, the enemy had disguised themselves with the wood of that nearby forest. So what I’m getting at is that there is too much word play…

It was a nice explanation but I don't understand what you were trying to say.That was basicly just explanation what propechy said in other words. Are you saying that it doesn't mean Harry? I think it's allready quite clear that it means Harry. Harry and Neville were ones that filled all the conditions at first and when Voldemort attaced Harry and gave him the scar, he marked Harry as equal, so there isn't much choices. But there is of course always a possibility that DD was wrong at first place

I'm just wondering if it could mean someone else born before in July. Judging by that definition of approaches: comes in space or time...As in, Snape and Aberforth were approaching Dumbledore when Trelawney was giving the prophecy. But I doubt it, sort of. Harry was the one marked, but it could also have multiple meanings. Marking someone doesn't have to be visible, like knighting someone.

And I guess whoever winds up defeating Voldemort (most likely Harry), or if Voldemort beats that person (most likely Harry again)...one or the other just has to exist. What this could mean is that they could go insane and placed in St. Mungo's, or something else.

The prophecy was given in June right? What if it was the seventh month since it was given, but before...like any January previously or to come? According to HP timelines, Snape was born on January 9th, 1960. That would be too tricky...it is possible but I doubt that too.

WHO KNOWS

Since the prophecy says "the seventh month" it really doesn't matter what month it was uttered in.

Dumbledore spelled it out that Voldemort intended Harry and so it is Harry.

Or were you asking something else?

....and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives

for me, this ios the most important part, we must find something very important in those lines

What I'm trying to say, as abstract as it might sound, is that there could be multiple interpretations. Everyone, or mostly everyone, has accepted that it is Harry since he was born in July, was physically marked by Voldemort, and matches the rest of the prophecy.

However, it could be like Macbeth where the prophecy came tree but not as expected. Something like someone telling of a dog eating chicken....and then you see a chicken eating a dog and think what the heck...(because it turned out to be a dog-eating chicken). The prophecy has set us up to believe one thing and it could turn out to be something completley different.

no way! they can't bedead! its basicly impossible! But a very good point!

MOD EDIT : One-liners and personal abbreviations ("gd" which I've now edited) are not allowed in the forums. Please read the rules.

thanks for that! i didnt even get it!

MOD EDIT : One-liners are not allowed in the forums. Please elaborate more next time.

Well, to answer your question, there are more then just one seer family in the wizarding world. There are alot. Otherwise, there would only be one or two prophecies. I think that there might be not as much to the prophecie that J.K. put in there. I also want to ask if this is still a discussion, there are large gaps in between posts.

Lachy

I could not find a thread that discusses this.

I have researched this for a fan fic that I am working on and I thought that this is quite interesting. Trelawney is said to have made the prophecy somewhere between Oct 1979 to around Feb 1980.You would think that Snape would have told Voldemort straight away. Harry was born on 31st of July 1980. Voldemort then attacked the Potter on the 31st of October 1981. Why does he wait a year before he kills the Potters?

Yup.
Trelawney worked 16years at Hogwarts and Snape 14.
I think LV didn't attack the Potters before, because he wanted to know the entire prophecy before (Snape was sent as a spy) , but obviously he didn't, and he couldn't wait more, so he went to kill Harry..it's logical that he thought that a baby won't do anything against him.

i think that when you said that

Apparently Snape was born in January, but since the prophecy was given in June (January seven months after June), then it could refer to him. But it probably really is July since its the seventh month and all...

Ummm I'm pretty sure he didn't wait. He had wanted to find the Potters for quite some time, and he only acted once Wormtail told him their whereabouts (he was the secret keeper of course).

I agree with SeventhHorcrux.

Right when Voldemort heared the prophecy he started thinking of ways to kill the potters but it wasn't until a year later that he finaly got them.

The only thing I don't get about that is this --- that sorta suggests that there was some sorta delay between when Pettigrew was made secret-keeper and when he told Voldemort the Potters' whereabouts. Why would he wait that long? And wouldn't Voldemort be furious with him if he did that?

“The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies....and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

that was the prophecy and it is clear enough that all in all its talking about only one person. that person who will have the power to defeat the deak lord as interpreted by someone in the posts earlier. Born as the seventh month dies, clarifies that its gonna be someone born at end of july. then the dark lord will mark him as equal, well then voldemort did unintentionally transfer his powers to harry the night he tried to kill harry. those who b'liv that it was snape who was marked (dark mark) then think it again, there were many death eaters marked with the dark mark. the mid part of the prophecy is just elaborating on the part where the ONE will kill Voldemort or die at his hands and the most important point that i suppose will clarify the misleading points told by few in the previous posts is that part where it says:
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
Please note that it says that WILL BE BORN, meaning is clear enough that the ONE about whom the prophecy is made is going to be born as the seventh month (JULY) ends. So I suppose we can rule out snape and others from this prophecy now as they were not born after the prophecy was made.

I was under the impression that the fidelius charm was placed a few days before Halloween. That is what it sounds like to me from what Sirius said. The fidelius charm was placed the Potters were safely in their house in Godrics Hollow and Pettigrew was in his hiding place. Sirius then went to check up on him the following night and he wasn't there.

The only thing I could think of that would account for the wait is that Snape didn't tell Voldemort until later. Maybe he waited and then told him the information then when he did and realised who he was going to go after had a crisis of conceince and then approached Dumbledore for not only a job but to reveal what he revealed. That is where part of Dumbledore trust in him comes into play.

Then I guess that pretty much seals the deal that its Harry or someone his age or younger that was born at the end of July...most likely Harry though...too much evidence. Maybe we can move on to the 'survives' part. One of them just has to survive and the other dies. Such as Voldemort being confined to a horcrux, Voldemort in the veil, Harry gone insane, one of them brain dead or their extremities all gone so all they are is a body and head...kind of graphic but they're still alive and thus survived. Just something to think about, as well as the other parts in the prophecy.

Wel thanks for not contradicting my view but i would very much welcome some critisicm on my point of view so I can think more on this. And as for the part where :
"either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives"
well for that i ama little confused right now because both of them are alive, because in an interview JKR had mentioned that she and Professor Sybill Trelawney had said this prophecy with much precision and that would bear great significance towards book 7, well ofcourse it would, since its the last book.
crsdba,
you view that harry would only survive, why i say harry is because i dont think that Voldemort would survive after being the worst ever villian in the Wizarding world, as i have mentioned in another topic, he is definitely coming down but what happens to harry, is still a big mystery as the last word of book 7 is "scar".
I still feel that there's some part of the prophecy that we are not understanding the way it was meant to be.

Hmmm, that is really interesting. We are told that the Potter's went in to hiding when they found out Voldy was after them, but we also know that they never left their actually house so "went into hiding" can only mean that they perofmed the fedilius (sp) charm. So either they didn't know Voldy was after them until way after he started looking for them (which doesn't make much sense because he should have easily been able to find them) or Snape waited a while before telling Voldy. Or Voldy waited to go after them for some reason.

I'm so glad you created this forum crsdba, and I will definitely put my input into it !

Yeah, I've been extremely busy lately, so not a lot of postage time. But this is a good theory. So let me put my thoughts on the true prophecy meaning.

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...

First of all, defied may not mean defeated him. Maybe it means that the Parents were asked by Voldemort to join him (similiar to how Hagrid wondered why Voldemort didn't ask Potters to be dark)\

Then theres the whole seventh month controversy, but I think it meant July.

And either must die at the end of the other, for neither can live while the other survives.

I don't know why but that makes me think if Harry is killed, Voldemort dies. And if Voldemort is killed, Harry dies. Which really stinks!

But I think we can connect this to DD gleam of trimph too...

That's the prophecy, but there's something I didn't though before but when I read It again, I was wondering.
Here's that part...
..Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies....and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal...

The word thrice (three times). Does it go with when he born, or when the Dark Lord will mark him as an equal.

Because if James and Lily thrice defied him, we must had one when Voldemort kill them. So it makes four, and not three....

Other thing.
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
will be born as the seventh month dies...
It means the one with the power will be born in any month before the end of July

I'd say that the thrice defied part was before he was born. Born to those who thrice defied him (if thats how it went). So how did they defy him? It doesn't just mean fought him....theres a couple possibilities..

I believe that Draco Malfoy will die near or in The Forbidden Forest. My reason being, when Salazar Slytherin left Hogwarts, he was last seen walking away from his Wife and son, heading into the forest. I believe that to make everything come full circle either Malfoy or LV must die in The Forest. The Forest is a place of the unkown to a certain degree, a place no one wants to enter for there are creatures inside so creepy and terrifying that they would make you never want to enter again. A way to bring closure to The Forest being such a dark place, also going along with bringing an end to the darkness LV brings, and allowing Hogwarts to start new again. Please comment, or let me know whatever you think.

ok this is way out of left feild for this but what if the 7th month is refering to the horcruxes? and will be born as the 7th month dies talks of sirius? i just think that would be a very unique twist on the prophecy.

It would be interesting, can you explain some more? Also, I would like to show my stance on this now: when I began this thread I was thinking too much about it, but I've come back to the original conclusion that it talks of Harry being born in July with the power...though everything else is open to interpretation in my opinion.

Just thought I'd clear that up, but keep the speculation rolling...

Perhaps the most important story from history concerning prophecies is the story of King Croesus of Lydia:

When King Croesus was tied to a stake, ready to be burned with the other captives after Cyrus the Great of Persia had conquered his empire, he asked his neighbor Solon of Athens, how the prophcy could have been wrong. "I asked the Oracle at Delphi what would happen if I made war on Persia, and the answer came back, 'A great empire will fall.'"

Solon replied, "You should have asked another question. 'Which empire?'" On hearing about this conversation, Cyrus the Great freed them both and made them advisors, giving them high offices in his court.

That is the nature of prophecy.

Exactly, its very tricky. We could be thinking one thing when its something completely different. Some things are definite in it though, which are the obvious parts...though still open to interpretation as always.

A thought just occurred to me.

In Roman times, March was the first month of the year. Thus, September translates from Latin as "The Seventh Month." Who was born in September?

There being so much other Latin in spells, etc., there may be something to this.

this is all very interesting but i dont think dd would sacrafice harry

and the way he explained the prophecy just seems so much more logical

crsdba... i really liked your idea of snape being the so called chosen one. And though people gave evidence against it I now strongly believe that Harry is not in fact the Chosen one.

Somesone said previously that the Dark Lord marked snape with the dark mark, meaning he marked him as his equal. But more to that, Voldemort holds Snape in high esteem. Draco tells Snape in the HBP that 'you wont be the dark lord's favorite anymore' ... The way I read the books it appears that Snape is basically Voldemort's 'righ hand man' ...telling Snape certain things he wouldnt tell others...he tells SNape because he maybe sees him as a somewhat equal?


The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ...

Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ...

And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ...

And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ...

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...

the first line ...approaches..I agree with crsdba's first remark that it could be Snape

second line...thriced defied him...in Snape's family his mom married a muggle..defience number one? since Voldemort isnt a fan of muggles. ( yet I acknowledge that Voldemort himself is half blood )
...born as the seventh month dies come right after 'born to those who have thrice defied him' could the ine be referring to the parents of the CHosen one being born as the seventh month dies and not the actual chosen one?

third line...marked as his equal...as I said, SNaoe is held in high esteem with Voldemort...and the dark mark and possibly Snape mad ethe unbreakable vow with Voldemort a while back??...

but he will have the power the dark lord knows not...this could have several meanings...it could be a power Voldemort has never heard of or isn't able to use...

And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... LAST LINE...very tricky I think...dont really know how to understand it...





but ive been reading this thread and I think all of the points made have been thought out and thourough...

Malfoy the Chosen One, please, come on. Rowling said in an interview that Harry was the chosen one and he always was.

what interview did she say he was the chosen one..if you can remember...because it seems unlikely that JK would just tell us that Harry IS the chosen one, i'd think she'd let us speculate rather than just giving us an answer...

It's in one, go to mugglenet to find it.

That idea made me laugh, lol, Malfoy the chosen one.