Right, which is why I said right after that, that Harry is the chosen one.

-Narcissa defied him by going to Snape for help
-Lucious made a mistake with the diary...
-and the third is yet to come

do'h...why am I arguing for it?

Why don't we try to focus on the other aspects of the prophecy?

-What the power is
-how will the vanquishing happen?
-thrice defied
-is the scar/AK curse really the mark he imposed on Harry?
-Who is going to die by the other?
-the term survive
-on what condition will the survivor be under?
-Once the prophecy is fullfilled...is the survivor invincible?

Or are we all just interpreting it wrong, and we're all way off?

I just had an idea that possibly the "Dark Lord" of the prophecy could be Snape. It never actually says Voldemort. And that other prophecy Trelawney makes, to Harry in PoA, could have been about Wormtail rejoining his master, Snape. Wormtail does seem to be Snape's servant in the HBP. And possibly there is something more to Snape's Prince nickname, which Lord could be refering to. Probaby I'm way off, but it's an interesting thought.

As far as Harry being the "Chosen One", that simply means he was chosen by Voldemort. Voldemort *chose* Harry as the one referred to in the prophecy. Just because he chose him doesn't mean that he was who Trelawney was talking about, or that she was talking about anyone in particular. She could have been talking of possibilities only. Which became Harry once Voldemort chose to believe it to mean Harry. Kind of like strange quantum physics, probability & all that. Shroedinger's cat-which goes something like this-there's a sealed box with a cat in it, which also contains cat food and poison. So the cat could be dead or alive. But the cat only becomes in reality one or the other once someone opens the box. So, the prophecy only means something when someone "opens the box" and believes it to mean one thing.

I think the important thing is that Voldemort believed the prophecy to be talking about him & Harry. So he acts in ways that make it come true. If Harry also believes it, he will act to make it come true. The prophecy is strange, it seems to be vague at first, but once someone chooses to believe in it in a certain way, it becomes a real prophecy that, in a way, does foretell the future. Hard not to confuse myself when trying to explain that one!

Snape feels regret about the way Voldemort interpreted the prophecy, right? He could have felt that it was about himself, so feels responsible in a way for causing James and Lily's death.

What do you guys think?

That cat thing was interesting. One could also take it as the move The Skeleton Key. In the movie, if you don't believe in voo doo or hoo doo (or whatever it was), then nothing happened to you. Unfortunatley, after convincing herself it was real, the character was faced with a challenge and changed her mind that it didn't exist; which had consequences for her.

So if Voldemort believes the prophecy, then he'll do anything in his power...and has...to make it come true. He also believes, in that case, that no one else can kill him or defeat him. Maybe that would be his downfall.

How do you know that was the last time Slytherin was seen? Have iI missed something? Maybe I need to re reread a book again...
I don't think the forrest is that bad, the centaurs are all right, and the Unicorns, and there are good creatures. Sure there is danger, but for me, the forest is more mysterious than terrifying.

Isnt this kind of like Final Destination.(I watched it a few days ago im still freaked out)(Only seen one so if youve seen 2 and 3 please dont say what happens im hoping to see 2 in a few days)
Everyone on that plane was meant to die. Alex, however sees what happens and stops himself and 6 other people from getting on that plane. This puts them in fates eyeline and he is after them.
The weird thing is that I think they were destinded to defy destiny because of the pattern of the planes problems were seating patterns.(Tod,Terry,Ms Leewton,Carter(Saved), Billy, Clear,(Saved) Alex(Saved))

So if this is like Harry Potter that meens Voldy was destined to defy destiny, so Sybil Trellawny was destined to predict his downfall, so Harry is destined to kill Voldy. Everything that happens happens for a reason so maybe destiny sets up people to defy destiny, to give him a challenge, yet really their destiny is to defy destiny and then die.

A Prophecy is basically telling the future through divine guidance. Sometimes a prophecy can be so obvious, but sometimes, the way it is worded, it may be very difficult to interpret a prophecy. Here is my interpretation of this prophecy.

Here is the Prophecy:

“The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies....and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches

Literally, this means the One with the power to defeat the Dark Lord is coming. Now I've seen that many people have interpretted that the Dark Lord doesn't necessarily have to be Lord Voldemort. They think that it could be Snape or anybody else. But I think that's wrong, because prophecies only predict according to the situation that is present. At that time, and during this time too, the only Dark Lord that exists is Lord Voldemort. So this is definitely referring to Voldemort. Basically, this part is predicting that the Dark Lord's, meaning Lord Voldemort's rise is falling. So that means that someone has the power to defeat the Dark Lord, whether that someone is born yet or not, and it is approaching fast.

Born to those who have thrice defied him

Literally, this means that this "person" who will defeat the Dark Lord has parents who have rejected the Dark Lord, i.e. Lord Voldemort three times with bravery and boldness. If you look at it, Lily and James Potter were extremely against Lord Voldemort, and they rejected him with bravery and boldness. I see that some people have suggested that possibly Draco Malfoy could've been "The Chosen One". But according to my interpretation that is invalid because Draco's parents never defied Lord Voldemort. One said that Narcissa did, but read the lines carefully. It says Born to those, meaning born to two people, so both have to defy Lord Voldemort. Lucius is a strict follower of Lord Voldemort, so Draco being "The Chosen One" does not fit with the prophecy. Another said that Hermione could be "The Chosen One", but her parents never defied Lord Voldemort. They didn't even know about him probably until when Hermione began going to Hogwarts.

born as the seventh month dies

Snape, no. He cannot be "The Chosen One" because he was born in January. Okay fine some people have given the argument that it could mean seven months after the prophecy. But have you read this carefully? Severus Snape was born on January 9, 1960. Is that as the seventh month dies? No, that's in the beginning of January, so that's impossible. If it was at the end of January, that could've been a possible argument, but it becomes invalid because of the fact that he is born in the beginning/close to middle of the month. Regarding Draco, Draco was born on June 5, 1980. He cannot be "The Chosen One" again because this was born in June, the sixth month. And it's the beginning also, so Draco is definitely a no no. As for Hermione, she was born on September 19, 1979. She couldn't have been "The Chosen One", even if you use the Latin Calendar theory, (March being the first month and September being the seventh month), because it's not when the month dies, it's more closer to the middle of the seventh month of the Latin Calendar. So that theory is also invalid. Neville was born on July 30, 1980, and Harry Potter was born on July 31, 1980. July 31 is more close to the dying part of the month, so therefore I think that Lord Voldemort chose the right person.

and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal

I see that many people have used the idea about "The Dark Mark" being the mark that this prophecy is talking about. I'm sorry to tell you this, but I think that's wrong. "The Dark Mark" doesn't make you equal to Lord Voldemort. It only shows that you are his follower. But you are not equal to him. Anybody who is equal to Lord Voldemort will share his powers, which the Death Eaters do not have. Sure Snape has "The Dark Mark", but he is not Voldemorts equal, as I have stated. Same goes for Draco. Hermione doesn't even have any mark, so she's out of this. It's only Harry who has a mark that makes him equal to Lord Voldemort. It is through that scar that Harry received many powers that Lord Voldemort had, including Parseltongue and being able to read his mind (as he did in GoF).

but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not

Many people get confused with this. I do too, but I'll try to explain to you what I think this means. I think in one sense this means that "The Chosen One" will receive some of his powers, which of course he will not mean to give away, or this could also mean the power of Love. I think this is both his powers into him and also the power of Love. Harry has many powers that ordinary wizards don't have, like being able to talk to snakes (Parseltongue), and being able to read Voldemorts mind. Neither Snape, nor Draco, nor Hermione have these powers, although Hermione is a smart girl. But she does not hold those powers that Harry does.

and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives

Any person with a brain would understand this. Do I need to explain this? Harry must kill Lord Voldemort in order to live, and Lord Voldemort must kill Harry in order to live. So basically, the prophecy has made is solid that the only person who can kill Lord Voldemort is Harry, and the only person who can kill Harry is Lord Voldemort.

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies

This last part really interests me. It repeates the first sentence, but it also gives me an idea. Could it be that the prophecy is giving us the answer to who is going to die? Could it be that Lord Voldemort is going to die, and that the one who will defeat him will be the one who is born at the end of the seventh month?...Meaning...Harry?

Could it be that Harry will survive?

This is my interpretation. Harry is definitely "The Chosen One"...if it was anybody else making him popular would be really stupid, and I don't think JKR is that unclever. I think this last sentence gives us the prediction that Harry is going to defeat Lord Voldemort. What do you guys think? Sorry if this interpretation was so long, but I had to speak up!!! Give me your thoughts, your critisisms, your comments.

I have also included crsdba's questions here, just posting some of my thoughts:

-What the power is

I think that the power is either the powers Lord Voldemort transferred into Harry on the night he tried to kill him, or it is the power Dumbledore keeps repeating...love

-how will the vanquishing happen?

I'm not sure which vanquishing you're talking about. If you're talking about when Harry vanquished him, we already know that. But if you're talking about the second vanquishing, then well hmm, that is something to think about. I really don't know, anybody got any ideas?

-thrice defied

I don't recall JKR mentioning whether James and Lily Potter defied or rejected Lord Voldemort thrice, I don't think she's mentioned anybody doing that. But I'm sure we'll find out in the seventh book.


-is the scar/AK curse really the mark he imposed on Harry?

Hmm, you've got a point there. Could it be that maybe he got that scar from the rubble? But no, when I think about it, I think that it is really the scar that Lord Voldemort gave him, because whenver there's danger, it prickles him. Why would it do that if it wasn't really a curse put by Lord Voldemort?

-Who is going to die by the other?

I think Harry will kill Lord Voldemort. I look at the last sentence of the prophecy, and it gives me a clue that "The Chosen One" will again defeat Lord Voldemort, because it's mentioned two times. It gives me the clue that it will happen twice.

-the term survive

Interesting. I think this means literally surviving. Meaning that he will live a normal life after that, that's what I think.

-on what condition will the survivor be under?

I think the survivor, or in my opinion Harry, will be living just like he was normally. Possibly because of the event his life would become a bit different, but I think that he will still exist.

-Once the prophecy is fullfilled...is the survivor invincible?

Hmm, I think according to the prophecy, the only person who can kill Lord Voldemort is Harry, and the only person who can kill Harry is Lord Voldemort, so yes I think that whoever survives (ahem, Harry), will be invincible.

You really went all out on this sdca!

The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord
I agree on your initial interpretation. When I asked how the vanquishing will happen, you divided it up...the attack on the Potters as one, and the inevitable showdown between Harry and Voldemort. Since vanquish means defeat, you take it as it has already happened? That makes a lot of sense. Voldemort was defeated when he attacked the Potters (ie, he lost that battle, but the war continues). It also makes sense because in the prophecy it says that one or the other (basically) must die. Does defeat also mean death?

and either must die at the hand of other for neither can live while the other survives I made a whole new thread on this called "Left Behind". It could help explain my stand on this issue, but its long, and I'd just be saying the exact same thing...so...I'll leave it up to you or whoever if you want to read it! But I think there is a lot more to this than meets the eye.

I think the end was repeated for a different purpose. I posted this in "Its Not Your Prophecy...Now What?". I believe it was repeated to make it appear that Snape only heard part of it, and if he heard the tail end as well...he'd just be hearing the same thing as the beginning. However, I also believe that he heard the whole thing...but thats for that thread!

I think now, after doing some posting in other threads, that the person who kills the other, will be able to be killed by someone else. Unfortunaltey, I've come to the conclusion that the person to die is Harry...and Voldemort will be killed by someone else (really...check out "Left Behind" )

I can explain that theory in "left Behind" if you really want me to, but its explained in whole there!

Here are some theories
Theory 1
To defeat doesn't necessarily mean to kill. Harry has defeaten voldemort loads of times but hasn't killed him, in PS/SS he defeated him by stopping Voldemort from getting the stone, In GoF he defeated voldemort in a dual (technichally) but didn't kill him.
So he's already defeaten voldemort a few times.
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Theory 2
Also the prophesy doesn't say when, (as in year), the baby with the powers to stop voldemort will be born, it could be someone like michael cornor for all we know, his parents might of defied him 3 times and then killed mum/dad giving him the ability to love, voldemort only believes it's harry, it doesn't mean it is him.

Come to think of it, wasn't hannah abbots mother killed by voldemort/on his orders. And neville's parents were tortured by DEs on his orders.
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Theory 3
Plus does it tell you when the longbottoms were tortured? he might have thought neville was the chosen one and sent deatheaters after him, while at the same time going to kill harry himself, thus nulling all chances of his demise?

Doesn't that mean he marked both of them as his equal? So it could be neville or Harry who kills voldemort or both together at the same time?
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I'm just spreading some theories out there but think about them

Its great to come up with new theories. But I think the Longbottoms were tortured by the Lestranges and Crouch Jr. for the whereabouts of Voldemort after he attacked the Potters. This of course brings in a different question...if Voldemort was thought dead, how would the Lestranges expect to get an answer out of the Longbottoms? Do the Lestranges know about the Horcruxes? Did the Longbottoms? Did the Longbottoms show up after Voldemort attacked?-----sorry, all for different threads!

But did they get an answer out of them? They might not have known his whereabouts and then just tortured them for fun

I don't think they knew the whereabouts, but they might have known he was still alive. So why attack the Longbottoms when they probably didn't know where he was? My guess is that they showed up at the Potters place after they were attacked and another death eater saw them and reported to the Lestranges...I dunno...

yes you destroyed my theory, but what i am saying is that it doesn't mean harry will kill voldemort, it just means weaken him and then someone else could finish him off.

What i am also getting at is the prophesy doesn't say that harry has to kill him. it just says that he has the power to defeat him which he already has.

how do we know there wasn't another prophesy, with someone destined to kill him not defeat him?

And the 'niether can live while the other survives', it still doesn't say that harry is the one to kill him, it just says he can't live while voldy's still kicking.

plus what if the other person refused to forfill the prophesy? voldemort would be invinsible...

but i doubt this will actually happen as harry is the main character and it would be a bit of a cop-out if he wasn't the chosen one.

and if the prophesy is only true if you believe it, then whats to say there actually is a prophesy? it's not destiney, it's your choices. what if harry didn't get to voldemort first and someone else did? What would happen? nothing would happen and the prophesy wouldn't be forfilled, big wow. Still not the end of the world. Dumbledore even said that not every prophesy has been forfilled. But the world hsn't blown up. The point is harry doesn't have to kill voldemortbut he wants to.

Well this probably made no sense what-so-ever so think back on how i am stupid

just to add somthing has anyone ever notcied that when a prophecy is in a story the prophecy being told is the cuase of the whole thing? think greek mythology here, the story of Oedipus his dad gets rid of him to beat the prophecy yet it still happens, he would have not gotten rid of Oedipus had the prophecy been made. prophecys are all about fate and that it cant be stoped yet it is a twist to what you beleive will happen, so the prophecy made LV wanna kill Harry yet there was the first part of the prophecy (notice LV pry would not have chosen to kill the potters yet had it not been for the prophecy) so i think though that there will be some twist to this at the end but Harry is the chosen one and LV is the dark lord undoubtably.

yes, like the whole idea of macbeth, the witches inspired macbeth to kill the king because they had given him ambition to do so, and the king wouldn't have been murdered if macbeth had no heard the prediction.

Voldemort made the prophesy come true by his own actions, but i think in this case he would have tried to kill the potters anyway, as they had 'thrice defied him'

but harry is the chose one to defeat voldemort, there is a theory called the 'ultimate spell' on here which says (like dumbledore) that there are other things much worse than death.

For instance, if voldemort lost his memory, he would lose his life, not litrely but he would forget everything, rendering him harmless.

And what about if you transfigured him into an inaminate object? imagine living your life as a cuboard while forced to watch everyone else pass by living thier lives? So to defeat doesn't necersserly mean to kill. (like i said before)

by the way the chosen one only has the powers the dark lord has not, meaning love, but technichally any one could kill/defeat him as long as they were born when the seventh month dies. Even if you were 'marked as his equal' it doesn't say that you had to kill/defeat him. Just as long as you were born as the seventh month dies and your mum/dad had thrice defied him, you could kill/defeat him

Plus here is the actual prophesy divided into three parts

1st. the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches... born to those who have thrice apposed him, born as the seventh month dies...

2nd. And the dark Lord will mark him as equal, but he will have powers the dark lord knows not...

3rd. and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...

4th. the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord will be born as the seventh month dies.

Now i think that the prophesy refers to three different people,

1st = harry has the power to vanquish (defeat) the dark lord because he already has and he fits all the criteria

2nd = harry again

3rd = Harry and neville vs voldemort.

'either' refers to harry and neville, and one of them is going to be killed by voldy (the other) and then the survivor kills voldemort

4th =neville

I think this is intresting, why would this line be repeated? unless there were two people who had the power to vanquish voldemort, and only one had been marked as his equal... so that must mean the only other person born as the seventh month dies... neville

so the 3 different people are voldemort, harry and neville...

think about it. by the way all my theories contradict so choose your favourate

Hmm...secretsanta you've got some good points. But I want to say something. In my opinion, I think that Neville will not be with Harry. You've supported your argument with the first and last sentence "The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches", and "The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies." As I have said this before, the first and last sentence point out that "The Chosen One" will vanquish the Dark Lord twice. There is only one chosen one. And only one person can finish off this prophecy, because the characteristics described of "The Chosen One" only point to Harry. He is the chosen one only because Lord Voldemort chose him. I agree it could've been Neville, but he was not chosen, therefore he is not "The Chosen One".

Neville, not holding those characteristics described of "The Chosen One" will not be able to vanquish the Dark Lord. Only the person with those characteristics will be able to vanquish him, and only Lord Voldemort will be able to vanquish Harry, it says it clearly in the prophecy, in the sentence:

"and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..."

So basically, this is saying that either one has to kill the other. That's what the prophecy is talking about as in "DEFEAT". So in this prophecy, defeat does mean to die. It's either Harry who has to kill Lord Voldemort, or it's Lord Voldemort who has to kill Harry. They can only kill each other. No one can kill Lord Voldemort except for Harry, and no one can kill Harry except for Lord Voldemort, because they are chosen for this prophecy. No one else is involved, only two people, the Dark Lord and The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, which is Harry. Harry can't live while Lord Voldemort is alive, and Lord Voldemort cannot live while Harry's alive. So the answer to the question of what state will the defeated one be in, they will be DEAD. About the question of what state the survivor will be in, that is unknown. But read between the lines. Defeat in this prophecy means to kill. One of them has to die, not become a cupboard or anything like that. It's either Lord Voldemort dead or Harry dead.

Neville is not chosen, so therefore he can't harm Lord Voldemort. The prophecy clearly states that either must die at the hand of the other...either of the two...the Dark Lord and "The Chosen One" must die at the hand of its opponent. I think I've made my point clear...

PS. I see that many people have used the argument that Lord Voldemort never died before so defeat doesn't necessarily mean death Well, Lord Voldemort was practically dead. He was so weak that if Harry did a small curse on him as a baby he would've died. It doesn't say in the beginning of the prophecy though that one has to kill the other. It says it in the second half, so this time, one has to die. And I think that's Lord Voldemort!

the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

Good assesments everyone! Has anyone considered the prophecy to be the layout of the sequence of events that have and will happen?

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...

Its describing this person who is going to vanquish the dark lord. And in fact he does vanquish him on the night of the attack on the Potters. But he is reborn later...I'll get to that...

and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not

Maybe this tells us that first Voldemort dies, then the mark appeared almost at the exact same time, like I said before, in lightspeed time.

...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...

After the attack, Voldemort went into hiding. He came back in SS/PS only to be defeated again, not killed. He's defeated all the way until the 7th book, after of course being "reborn" in the 4th. Its telling, as you said sdca, that one must die...because one can't live while the other survives. JKR said she chose her wording carefully...so whats with "the hand" part. Will the love protection that Harry has (and is also going through Voldemort) have some sort of reaction when it goes away? When Harry touches Voldemort with his hand, will something different happen? Will they try to choke each other to death? OR am I taking it too literally, and one of them will die by the wand?

The last part, it repeating how the boy will be born as the seventh month dies, tells about a different time when the chosen one will defeat the Dark Lord. A defeat happening in book 7. What if it happens at the lightspeed time again? Voldemort uses the AK curse and kills Harry, and in my opinion (using the imprint theoy), makes Voldemort morta again...then succombs to wounds inflicted by Harry and maybe others around him...maybe Harry will use sectumsempra on Voldemort, it hits his chest but he doesn't care because he's immortal, then uses the AK on Harry who dies, then Voldemort collapses because of the wound.

Exactly, Kells Bells The forest is more mysterious than evil to me. And Aurortobe, where did you read that about Syltherin? I never read that except in fanfiction. If you could point me to the source I would appreciate it a lot! Thanks!

What i am saying is

'the either' refers to harry and neville

'the other' refers to voldemort

so either (harry or neville) will be killed by voldemort (the other).

so my version of the prophesy would go like this

'harry or neville must die at the hand of voldemort'
'for harry and neville can't live while voldemort survives'

so even though neville wasn't marked he is still in the prophesy as a candidate for killing voldemort. The 'chosen one' is about one who voldemort marked as an equal, then defeating him (harry). while neville was not marked but still could defeat him.

I think that voldemort will kill neville and that harry will then kill voldemort

Anyway thats my theory fully explained as i think a few of you got the wrong end of the stick.
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Another theory to think about...

Anyway why cant the last line be refering to neville in the future? harry has already carried out his part of the prophesy by defeating voldemort (as i pointed out earlier it doesn't have to mean to kill) and the last line refers to what neville will do in the future?

this could mean that harry is killed by voldemort and then neville comes and kills him after that. Thus he defeated voldemort even if he wasn't marked a the chosen one.

as to the fact that it says 'niether can live while the other survives' this only refers to the fact that it is certain that they will one will die by the other, it doesn't say they can't be killed after that.

Maybe the entire prophesy was made out for harry and his eventual doom (sorry mate) but the last line made out for neville. see another theory to get your head round (there's been quite a few) anyway shout back!

Ha ha ha, secretsanta I love arguing with you! Well, we all have different thoughts. But really, I think that the prophecy is only for "The Chosen One"...for instance, if Neville was in the place of Harry, then Neville would have to finish the prophecy. But since he wasn't chosen by Lord Voldemort, I don't think it's him who's going to fulfill the prophecy. I think that there are only two people, "The Chosen One" (Harry) and Lord Voldemort.

I am not saying that the prophecy doesn't point to Neville. It pointed out to Neville too, but only about how the one to defeat will be born when the seventh month dies. What I'm trying to say is that because Lord Voldemort marked Harry as his equal, and has powers that Lord Voldemort knows not, that is the reason why he is "The Chosen One". If Neville was marked as Lord Voldemorts equal, and if he held powers Lord Voldemort knew not, and if the series was called Neville Longbottom and the Sorcerors Stone...etc...then well that's how it would be. But Harry was just chosen. Lord Voldemort had two choices, Harry and Neville, and he chose Harry. So Harry is the one who has to fulfill the prophecy because the prophecy is only about him now, not Neville, because he was not chosen. It could have been, but it's not. In my opinion the person who fulfills the prophecy has to have all those characteristics, and it's only Harry who has all those charactersitics...born to those who have thrice defied Lord Voldemort...born as the seventh month dies...was marked equally by Lord Voldemort through his scar, many of Lord Voldemorts, or possibly all powers were transferred into Harry through his scar...has powers Lord Voldemort knows not...

Yes it's true that Neville's parents as well defied Lord Voldemort, possibly thrice, yes it's true that Neville was born as the seventh month dies, but it is not true that Neville was marked as Lord Voldemorts equal, and no it's not true that Neville holds powers Lord Voldemort knows not (maybe maybe not)...but he was not marked as his equal, therefore he is not "The Chosen One"...and only "The Chosen One" can complete the prophecy.

There...done...

how many times do i have to tell you? the chosen one only refers to what voldemort thinks is the biggest threat and is marked, not who is. neville even though he is not marked could still defeat voldemort, (if my theory with the either refering to harry or neville is right then it harry would defeat voldy though)

I know this won't happen (how would we know if neville killed voldemort if harry, we see the story through his eyes, was dead) but it is still possible

And i still stick by my theory that neville and harry are refered to by the 'either' but i think that neville will die by voldemort and then harry kills him see? i'm actually agreeing that harry will kill voldy
another theory

See voldemort could kill harry and forfill the prophesy and then the one who hasn't been marked (the one in the last line aka neville) could kill voldemort! like i said about the future prophesy referng to neville.

I know this won't happen (how would we know if neville killed voldemort if harry, we see the story through his eyes, was dead) but it is still possible

here's something that probably doesn't belong here but is good, what about if a dementor suck voldemorts soul out? then he wouldn't have the soul inside him and he could be killed!

PS i like arguing too!

But...but but but but but!!!!...the point that im trying to emphasize is that Lord Voldemort had two choices. He chose Harry. Now that that's completed, the choosing and all, it is only that person who can fulfill the prophecy...that is what I'm saying. I dunno maybe I'm not explaining it right...but really I see this prophecy so clearly, or maybe I'm just dumb and JKR is just way to smart for me. I like the idea about Neville getting killed and then Harry, having all the anger in him (and you know how good he is with magic when he gets emotional) will kill Lord Voldemort.

That is possible that that could happen, but I don't support your theory that Neville will finish off the prophecy, and the theory you said about how it's about three people, Lord Voldemort, Harry and Neville. I really think the theory is only about two people, because when theres the sentence
and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives......i think that's only referring to two people. So really there are only two people involved in this prophecy.

I think a lot of people have missed a point.

The statements of a prophecy do not have to be true at the moment a prophesy is made. They only have to be true at the moment the prophesy is fulfilled. That gives JKR lots of wiggle room.

I'll just leave it at that for now.

I think it refers to only two people as well...however, it could refer to two different people at first, then two different (or one of them is the same, while another is replaced) later. What do I mean?

Three person theoryJk said she chose the wording very carefully, and i've tried to think of a way that would differ from the obvious 'the three person theory' only pops out if you look at it closely and if you look at the wording closley

Harry at start then neville (or vice-versa)
yes thats what i meant crsdba

Hello, I've merged this topic with three other topics, in short, this thread is about discussing theoretical prophecies in general, NOT the Lost Prophecy.
So to review, this thread covers:

• The relevance of prophecies in the Wizarding World
• Prophecies made in the past or yet to be orated
• Possible Prophecies concerning other characters

Tuitus

The ancient point of view was that true prophesies were inevitable, and no-one could escape fate. Some prophesies would come true if they were ignored, or if those involved were unaware of them. Others would come true if you tried to avoid them. And still others were plastic, in that there were multiple possible outcomes, depending on how those involved acted. Sybil's prophecy concerning HP and VL is in the last category.

Dumbledore's point of view is that all prophesies are plastic. Many never come true, despite their being genuine prophesies. If all prophesies are subject to failure, then there is no such thing as fate. This is JKR's real point of view. (See the JKR website.)

The ancient point of view was that prophesies were often cryptic. Sometimes you need to ask one more question, or percieve a non-obvious meaning, to bend fate to your will, or to your true benefit. Often, a condition of the prophesy that everyone thought was fulfilled first, is not fulfilled until the end.

ok,i have read the 5th book but i was only 10 and didnt understand or remember it. could someone explain the prophocy,the viel and the department of mysteries and what happened at the ministry and why harry went to the ministry in the 5th book? please and also explain the hall of prophocy's and how trelanway is involved in the prophocy ?please

ok,im sorry but i really dont get that chapter guide

Ok...let me see what I can do...

well,thank you alot.I reallly need to read the book again.that cleared almost all of my questions.thanks

MOD EDIT: Please do not double post. Use the EDIT button. Your last message was deleted, but I copied it here:

please mods lock this


MOD EDIT: Erm...I think we can leave it for now. In case anyone else has anything they want to add or ask within this realm of conversation. I'll check in later.

Dumbledore says that nto all the prophecies that have been made are fulfilled, and they are in some ways, self-fulifilling - ie. if Voldemort hadn't heard of it, it would never have happened.

So maybe the prophecy is a joke.

As for the time-turners, I think I rememebr Hermione saying that they broke all the ministry's stock in OOTP. Otherwise everyone would go back in time and save Dumbledore!

Yes it might be true that if Voldermort never heard the prophecy he might not even try and kill Harry. I don't think so. I think this because when Dumbledore is telling Harry about the prophecy the prohecy says that "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him." I think that would be enough for Voldermort to go after his parents then to stop the Potter blood line kill Harry so he doesn't have revenge on him and put up a pretty good fight. see where im going with this?

I think that even if Voldermort had not heard the prophecy, he still would have fought Harry eventually. Voldermort would not have lost his powers and at some point at time he would have tried to kill the Potters since they were said to be great wizards. The line "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him." is the line that sealed Voldormort/Harry/Nevill(?)'s fate. Too bad Sanpe had to hear that line

In regards to my last post in this thread, I think the third person...if there is one...is Snape.

oh i see,prophecy describes the future of harry?oh God [please] harry would not die at the end,voldemort should be die [because] he deserves it
[Mod Edit] Hi, no netspeak please like plz or coz, thanks.

There is also another kink in your theory 'El Barto'. Voldermort hasnt marked him as his equal. If you are thinking about the Dark Mark, then there would be alot a people Vodermort would have marked as his equal.

This is what I meant, and I know I kind of messed up in saying that the first entire half refers to Harry...but the following I think refers to Harry.

`The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches. born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies . and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not .

The night Voldemort attacked the Potters, he allowed those to come true. Harry vanquished him (remember, vanquished doesn't mean kill...and defeat doesn't either).

The next part refers to Snape and Voldemort, not Harry and Voldemort. Although it is wierd how it would jump from a set of two people and replace one of those with another...and say that the other person who was already born will be born later than he was

and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives . the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies .'

Keep in mind that this is what I think, and it could be wrong and probably is And it also goes hand in hand with my Imprint Theory, where instead of Harry being a Horcrux, he has Voldemort's imprint in him...its complicated...so if you want me to I'll explain it again. But at a certain point the decision to kill Voldemort will be in Snape's hands...in my opinion...basically the prophecy is interpreted anyway one may want it and I just realized that perhaps the ending part also includes Harry I'm losing it...but I'll update you all when I got a better grasp on what I'm trying to say.

Let me resite the entire tale:

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have have thrice defied him, born as the seventh mounth dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must dieat the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh mounth dies...

That is the Prophecy in Harry Potter and the order of the Phoenix

el barto

i really like your theory that the prophecy refers to two people instead of one.

One thing about the prophecy that I find interesting is that it states 'the dark lord will mark him as his equal' when LV actually has never considered himself to have an equal. IN the Goblet of Fire, he wants to kill Harry at the end to prove he is greater than Harry, but He never states that anyone is his equal because he feels to superior. Is it possible that he unknowingly marked someone as his equal by entrusting the person with a secret...possibly of the horcruxes? i dont know..just thinking out of the blue.

when people discard the idea of voldemort marking snape as his equal by way of dark mark, the prophecy doesnt say he will mark ONLY ONE or ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE as his equal, maybe he marked several? just a thought, though i know it goes completely against my statement above and now ive rambled so much that i think i will go...

Voldemort marked Harry as his equal so in the future he could kill Harry and be brought back to life. The Horcruxes are all finished, all Harry needs to do is find them.



Dumbledore

I like the idea of the prophecy being about ywo people too. That would be cool.... Think, Harry and Severus Fighting together . Although even if the prophecy did concern Severus and Harry they would probaly not fight together.

I'm not sure but I think that it refers to Harry primarily because everyone thinks it does - I'm very much a person who believes' in self forfilling prophesies, they happen because you have been told that they will happen, for example - Voldermort only attacked Harry in the first place because of hearing the prophecy - so does that then mean that if there was no prophecy then it wouldn't have happened (which was also be true as is the phrophecy itself) - see selfforfilling - like when Trewlawny (can't spell sorry) said that neville would break the cup - this statement may have itself made him nervous and jittery and therefor more prone to accident

sorry I'm not very good at explaining myself

Velvet, you're right in saying that the prophecy is self-fulfilling...because Voldemort wanted it that way...if he hadn't done anything then nothing would have happened. However, he only heard that a child would be born that would have the power to kill him. I bet if he heard the entire thing then he wouldn't have done anything mainly because he wouldn't want to mark this person as his equal (which I think lasted only for a fraction of a second....kind of explained in my theory 'The Phantom Death Theory').

I think we can look at the movie Minority Report to explain if stuff will really happen. In that movie, murders are predicted before they even happen and the people are arrested without committing the crime. Most of their beliefs is that they will happen...a way to emphasize this is rolling a ball off a table and somebody catching it then asking that person why he/she caught it. The person may answer 'because it was going to fall', but would it have fallen? You would never know for sure because you caught it. Know what I mean?

So, perhaps a different motive for killing the Potters would have arisen if the prophecy wasn't given or if Voldemort hadn't heard it.