Here ya go, another topic to discuss the Death.

V1 is here.

V.2 is here.

And the recently archived V.3 is here.

The last post in V.3 was made by EvansChild13

Guys he is not dead!!!! Isn’t it obvious that’s why in the 6 book the unspoken spells are so mentioned cause snape used another spell on DD.! And did anyone wondered why DD. and snape were arguing near the forest when hagrid heard them???? Snape didn’t augur to go on the other size and look like a killer to all the others!!! And isn’t it curios that DD. begs for his life before snape ''kills him'' after he always said that death is just another part of the journey of a human being???? He wasn’t begging for his life he was begging snape to do it cause snape didn’t want to do it!!! If you look at the words in witch Harry is described when he makes DD.

Drink that nasty potion in the cave it says "hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing" and you can see that when snape comes in the tower it says "and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face (snape)" so its obvious this is another clue of J.K.R.!!! snape was doing something he didn’t wanted!!

And another thing is that he was very very angry when Harry called him a coward!! If you go and read that part you will se he was extremely angry !! Because he had a lot o courage cause he helped DD. in his plan and went in the arms of the enemy so that’s why he didn’t want to be called a coward!!! If after this you still think Dumbledore is dead than you should go see a doctor!!! ))

I actually think I need counselling after what happened in HBP, that whole last quarter of the book from when Harry and DD go off to find the Horcrux right up to Snape fleeing etc. is just too tense and emotional. And my favourite character dying?! I'm just not emotionally equiped to deal with that sort of thing!
Anyway, little there so... as much as I would like to think that DD is not dead I get the feeling he is. If there had been no body then I would definitely think he was still alive but all those people saw him at the bottom of the astronomy tower and some of them were teachers, not exactly unintelligent; or blind. I think if it does turn out he's still alive I'll see it as a bit of a cop out on JKs part because it was a very brave thing to do killing one of the best characters. Bringing him back would be akin to the infamous 'shower scene' in Dallas, although most of the people in here will be too young to remember that .

I think that DD. is (most unfortunatly) dead. Although, I think that DD. knew the entire year that he was going to die some time that year. I'm sure he knew that draco had been given the task of killing him and that snape had been given the job to kill him when or if draco could not and that snape made the unbreakable vow (which means if Draco dies so does snape.) Voldemort would have killed Draco's entire family if DD. hadn't died by the end of that year. Voldemort would also then have gone after snape, and even though in the book DD. says to Draco that he can hide him and his family from Voldemort,I think that DD. knew that he had to die to protect these people, he was unable after all to protect the potters from Voldemort.
In the book, DD. revealed that no defense against the dark arts teacher has lasted more than a year since tom riddle was denied the job. This is why I think that DD. never made snape the defense teacher, but funny how in the 6th book he finally gives snape the job, knowing that its cursed, that snape won't last more than a year. I believe that's because DD. knew that Draco wouldn't be able to kill him and that after snape did, he would have to run.

I guess I do believe the in the possibility that DD. might still be alive, but I'm not holding out much hope.

All I do know for sure is that there is more to this event then we know.

I'm pretty certain the DD is dead... even with JKR's penchent for leading the reader to believe things a bit inaccurately at times through Harry's eyes and thoughts. After reading HBP, I was sure that Snape had finally shown his true colors and proved his alliance to LV. But after talking to a few other fans and reading some of the disussions here, I've been converted to the camp that believes that Snape was actually doing what DD asked him to do. I think that is besides the point, however... I think regardless of what side Snape is on that DD is indeed gone for good (at least in human form).

The one fact that pretty much convinces me is the statement that Harry makes about the full body bind curse that DD had put on him being lifted as soon as Snape blasted him off the tower with the AK allowing him to move again. I think JKR has created sufficient magical precident to allow us to still see DD in some form -- maybe through his portrait, or my favorite theory: a phoenix is born from the ashes of a great wizard or witch when he or she dies and some kind of personality and magical imprint is made on that phoenix... take notice of the phoenix that Harry wees but thinks is just a wisp of smoke at DD's funeral just after DD's body bursts into flame. There's a thread I started about this that few people seem to be interested in. Check it out here.

Also, if you look at JKR's history, she's never lead us THIS far off track with things from one book to the next. Sure, there's been plenty of that within books (like Harry and everyone else believing Sirius to be one of LV's cronies in PoA, etc). I think it's something she's been planning from the beginning. I think Harry's love for DD will ultimately come into play in book 7 and help him beat LV... sort of like his love for Sirius prevented LV from possessing Harry at the end of OotP. But this is getting a bit off topic...

I just think there's too much evidence that points to DD being dead to think that he's not. This is my opinion of course!

If he was an animagus maybe he could turn into a phoenix and when he was blasted off the tower (the only time the AK curse has moved a body) he turned into the phoenix and transfigured something into his body (in OotP it was mentioned by one of the testers that Dumbledore had done things with a wand that he had never seen before during his Transfiguration practical exam) and the Phoenix at the end was Dumbledore and not Fawkes

Wow one, that is a great (and a crazy), theory. But that would be so cool if that happened. I mean imagine Harry battling Death Eaters or Voldermort. Then out of no where a Phoenix comes out and transfigures to himself again. Then blows all the Death Eater away. If he was fighting Voldermort, Voldermort would be like " What the... I thought youo were dead." Then Dumbledore would be like " Things can be very deceiving sometimes Tom." The Voldermort would get really angry and start firing jinxes.

Whoa this got me thinking. This is my favourite theory yet.

The One's theory on DD. becoming a phoenix and transfiguring fawkes into DD.'s body is an interesting one. I still think that DD. is dead. JK Rowling doesn't seem the type to not kill a charater off simply because he/she is a beloved one. I kind of see parallels between DD's death and Obi Wan's death in Star Wars. Obi Wan even said to Vadar that if he strikes him down he will become more powerfull then any one could imagine and he does, he ends up helping Luke quite a bit-----I think this is what will happen with DD. For Harry to win against Voldemort, DD. had to be somewhere he could help him in away he couldn't in life. Just because DD. is dead doesn't mean he is gone

but there is always the posibility that DD is alive.

So, everyone, I just was curious to know how did people feel when Dumbledore died? I was pretty upset, let me tell you!

Just thought this would be an interesting topic to start.

I know he died, and JKR says he's really dead, but I don't think he's going to stay really "dead" - he'll be back in some way or another - in MY opinion.

Lore

I was outraged. Words can not describe the anger I felt at the time. I hated Snape so much.

I couldn't cry-I tryed hard and looked sad for about 5 minutes! The only book I have ever cried for is in The Book Thief...and Max didn't even die.

I think that our beloved Professor Dumbledore is indeed dead, but he did tell Harry that the ones we love never really leave us. I don't know if he'll pull an Obi Wan (hehe), but I do think that we haven't heard the last from Dumbledore. The magical world is chock full of ways that DD would be able to speak from the grave.

I wondered, though, if DD would have chosen to remain earthbound as a ghost. That perhaps the conversation that Harry had with Nearly Headless Nick at the end of OotP was a foreshadowing of it. I doubt it, but it's a thought.

I was completly stunned, then sad, then I finished reading the book. I had thought DD would die when he came to collect Harry. Then I thought a Weasley, then a teacher (Sanpe or Mcgonnagle (sp?) ) and when they were getting the Hoxcrux, DD again. Though I did (at first) think he would come back, but then I realized he was gone.

I think so too. I thought it strange Snape had to even say the A.K. When LV killed Cedric he sure didn’t lift off the ground. I’m pretty confident that SS & DD had a unspoken conversation. The Deatheaters were not going to leave Hogwarts until DD was dead by Draco’s hand. Saving DD would mean a possible loss of many students lives & it would have if not for LL potion. Plus if DD was killed on the spot the locket, (which he obtained at such a great cost) would be taken. So what to do? Use a levitation spell to take DD over the tower, satisfy the Deatheaters and preserve ownership of the locket. Now when Snape shows rage and DD is pleading, it’s because DD asked him to do the worst thing possible! To take care of Harry who was nearby.

Snape gets furious at the coward remark because shortly he is going to have to face Voldemort. He is going to have to explain why Draco failed & save Narcissa for her interference. I feel it was incredibly important for Draco to do this act. Just as Lily Potter’s sacrifice summoned an older magic, (which DD says LV fears) Voldemort wanted to use a dark version, where a student kills a headmaster. I imagine Bellatrix will have to plead for her sister life and Snape will present DD’s wand as a souvenir of his passing.

If anyone's in trouble it will be Harry (the so-called boy who loved), who performed an unforgivable curse twice in hate. Bet Moody's going to be disgusted at that.

First off i wanna say hi to everyone, its been a while since i last posted.

secondly, from the moment after the initial shock of reading of DD's death i have been thinking taht DD didnt really die. It's so brutally simplistic to have Snape use a nonverbal curse(not avada kadavra) , dumbledore falls off the tower, slows himself hits the ground( im at school so i dont have access to the book right now but didnt the book say its seemed like time slowed down as his body hit the ground?), is found by teachers who know of his plan and can hid the fact that hes alive. Now if i can shift your attention to the beginning of the second book(?) when Harry is trying to do homework by night, his homework is on the witch trials in history and how the witches would use a simple curse that would make them immune to fire while they were on the stake. This seems like what JKR could have done to confuse us as sh's done in the past.

I think DD is really dead but I also think he knew Snape was on Voldermort side because if I don't remember wrong at the moment Snape appered DD said "don't do it" if he didn't knew Snape was on Voldermort side why would he have said that even before Snape raised his wand?
The question then is why would DD let him go that far?

Okay, I admit, I didn't read ALL of the previous threads. Just so you know that up front.

I always thought he was dead. but I made up my mind for sure after I reread that chat Jo did at the Edinburgh book festival, when she confimed that the portraits in the office were all of dead people. His portrait was there. So he's dead for me. The bit in the chat with Melissa and Emerson about the old wizard always dying cinched it, too. It's a hero's quest, and the hero always has to go it alone at some point. As long as Dumbledore was around, it would be hard for Harry to make ALL of his own decisions.

I can't imagine why Dumbledore would want Harry to witness the death of another person he loved, and have it be fake. It plays with Harry's emotions, and ours, not to mention alienating all of the allies that came to his funeral.

It's not like Sirius, where we didn't get a body or a funeral, and argued about whether or not he was dead. He was, and I think Dumbledore is. In fact, I think he was already dying, or that he might even have died when he broke the horcrux ring and that Snape "stoppered it" for him. That might be why he wanted to get to Snape as soon as he got back to Hogwarts.

At any rate, if it came down to him dying, or Snape and Draco dying, he'd die to save them. He wasn't afraid of death anyway.

If he's alive, I'll be horribly dissappointed.

Die Zimtzicke,
Like you, I too will be very disappointed if Dumbledore is not really dead. As I said in the Initial Reactions thread, I feel that Harry needs to be able to face his future on his own without relying on Dumbledore. Also, as I was discussing with a friend a few weeks ago, authors never seem to have the guts to just kill someone off. All the “favorites” either stay alive or come back to life or never really died. It’d be nice if Rowling would just keep Dumbledore dead for a change of pace.

Having said that, I have not formed an opinion as to whether he really is dead. I think there are too many questions. First on my list, the Unbreakable Vows. Is there a way that Dumbledore and Snape could have contrived a way to trick the magic involved in the Vows? If so, what’s the point?
Second, is the business of Dumbledore’s office. His office switched owners and his portrait appeared in the office, which would seem to me to say that he could only be dead. Also, as has been mentioned, Harry noted that he could move because of Dumbledore’s death. Also, there’s the matter of Dumbledore’s body and the number of witnesses. Also, like was mentioned, the other teachers are not stupid and I think someone would be able to think of the flaws in the story that we have thought of and yet none of them doubted his death. Also, in book 4, it clearly states that there is no countercurse and no blocking the Killing Curse. Also, we know that, skilled in nonverbal spells as Snape may be, he did say the curse and it did strike him “squarely in the chest”. Even if Snape had used a nonverbal curse beforehand, it’s not counterable.

However, on the flipside, why did Dumbledore’s body fly through the air when all evidence suggests he should simply have died? Why was he pleading with Snape? If he trusted Snape so thoroughly, wouldn’t he have know that Snape would follow their plan? And I don’t doubt for a second that Dumbledore had plan. Therefore, why would be plead unless either he suddenly stopped trusting Snape after years and years of doing so or he was begging Snape to continue with the plan knowing that Snape didn’t want to. Now, this could be an argument either way. However, I can’t see Dumbledore pleading for his life unless he had some crazy important reason that we don’t know. It just doesn’t seem to fit his character. Another problem I have is with the body. I know of no way that Dubmledore could make his body appear dead for a couple days and I’m just not sure he had enough time to make a switch and get away unseen. However, I wouldn’t put it past Dumbledore to have the ability to do either. Also, as I said, I do believe that Dumbledore was fully aware of what Draco was planning and that he had quite some time to come up with a plan. And, who better, if you can find a way to stay alive after the Killing Curse hits you in the chest, to help you with your plan then Snape who, as we know, is highly skilled in both potions and nonverbal spells?

So, in my mind, there are just to many questions, too many things that don’t add up.
I hope for Harry’s and the story’s sake that he is indeed dead.

I can't help think that he knew if Snape did not kill him, that Draco and Snape would die instead, and that he may have been dying anyway, or at the very least still not afraid of death. I'm one of the fans who think he told Snape if push came to shove to just do it. He wasn't pleading for his life in my theory. He was pleading for Snape to end it, and get away with Draco, so that they could live another day. Maybe the body flew back because he started having convulsions or something from all of that other junk that weakened him. I'm not sure. He was barely able to stand at that point anyway.

I just can't get around that Jo said the portraits were all of dead people, and he had a portrait appear.

I am also frustrated that after pointing out in OotP that nonverbal spells don't always work well (the one that hit Hermione in the chest) Jo then decided to have so much focus on them in HbP. It seems a contradiction to me.

I agree with that, I mean JK Rowling probably mentions the twitch, the argument and particularily the 'don't call me a coward' bit etc for a reason

I read recently a theory (not entirely sure where - sorry) about DDs death, but I don't think that I agree with it, even though it does sound plausible but I thought that I put put it out there because I don't think it has been mentioned yet (unless of course I orinally read it in one of the other versions of this thread ) - I'll look for it later this week...

...the theory pretty much says that DD may have been switched with Peter Pettigrew (yeah I laughed at first too, but please bear with me )...
1), because he is just randomly mentioned at the start of the book living with Snape, the supposed killer,
2) because he has a debt to pay off
3) the hand, DD = shriveled PP = silver perhaps polyjuice potions (or whatever) can't transform magically recreated silver hands
4) --"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead..." - this seems very un-DD like, could it possibly be about PPs betrayal of James and Lilly
5) DDs later characterisation seems a bit off, even things like calling LV Lord Voldermort instead of Tom Riddle like he normally does
4b) 5b) but more so the supposed weaknesses he shows and fear (he has always declared that there is nothing to be feared by death), but the fear and weakness with the poition also seems more like PP

so thats the theory, I think that (well the original at least, my interpretation is probably awful) it makes some good points but I'm still inclined to believe that DD did die to save Snape and Draco like Die Zimtzicke and lots of others have said. because sacrificing PPs life for his own doesn't seem 'in character' for him

My jaw just drops. It does make sense to me switching PP for DD. I hadn’t a clue why DD had such awful memories in the cave. He didn’t strike me as one who caused another to suffer from something he had done.

I don’t think DD would want PP to die either, but Draco unexpectedly getting the Deatheaters inside the school changed everything. The Deatheaters weren’t going to leave until the job was done and would’ve harmed many students in the process. Unfortunately they made it past OotP’s defense to the tower so Draco’s choice to accept DD protection was taken away.

I must say Iwas not expecting it. i mean who would have expectented dumbledore to die? i just kinda never really thought about it, you know

I myself didn't believe that Dumbledore could have died. I always thought that Dumbledore would be there to the end.

I cried when Dumbledore died. Harry's lost so many people in his life that he cared about and who, in turn, cared for him. I thought it was particularly harsh to take away his mentor, the one person he had complete trust in, and the closest thing he had to a father after Sirius' death.

It was just really sad, I've told about 2384938 people since I read the book. It's kind of like losing someone I was close to, I needed someone to talk to. Haha, or maybe I'm just getting a little too Harry Potter obsessed. Either way, it was sad. (And, yes, I know, I repeat myself a lot. Haha.)

I did the same thing, ginnyeff. right after I finished reading it, I called up any friend who'd read the book and sobbed with them over the phone. It was kind of pathetic, I must admit, but it was nice to vent with someone who actually cared.

I still don't think DD is dead... there's a lot of evidence that he isn't. In OotP when Harry tries the Cruciatus curse on bellatrix lestrange, she says you really need to want to cause pain or death, and page 595 of HBP -

"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face."

Gazing at someone doesn't really sound like Snape wants to kill DD... and on the next page, it says this:

"A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never left him; silent and unmoving, he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight."

Since when does Avada Kedavra blast someone into the air? All the other times people have died, their bodies just fall down when the curse hits them, they aren't blasted into the air, so I'm forced to believe Snape really didn't mean for DD to die so the curse didn't work properly, as Bellatrix said in OotP. And Harry's scream of horror never left him; silent and unmoving, he was forced to watch as DD was blasted into the air.??? DD would've been dead as soon as the curse hit him if it actually was intended to kill him, meaning the enchantments on Harry should've been lifted immediately, unless Snape or DD muttered or thought, nonverbally, the countercurse so the enchantment would be lifted off Harry.

Also, throughout the whole time DD was on the Lightning-struck tower, he is shown as slipping. This starts on Page 587, last paragraph-
"Yeah, well, you still didn't realize who was behind that stuff, did you?" sneered Malfoy, as Dumbledore slid a little down the ramparts, the strength in his legs apparently fading, and Harry struggled fruitlessly, mutely, against the enchantment binding him.

We see DD sliding down the ramparts three times total before he is "killed." I think the potion he drank was some kind of sleeping potion, such as the Draught of Living Death, becuase then DD would be falling asleep, sliding down the ramparts, he would be asleep all throughout his funeral, and I think LV would've wanted the person who got to his horcrux to fall asleep so they would be stuck in the cave until he could get to them and find out how and why they got there.

Just another reference, page 588 HBP, paragraph 10-
"Dumbledore closed his eyes again and nodded, as though he was about to fall asleep. "...of course... Rosmerta. How long has she been under the Imperius Curse?"

I was angry at first, then hit that shocked-disbelief phase. The thing is, then I got the suspicious phase. I don't think he's really dead. Did a lot of poring back over all the books. Too much to list here. But check out the Rowling is Framing Snape & DD thread. Filled with all sorts of things to help inspire you to feel hope ;0)

I think..at first i was very very upset.
I wanted to personaly kill snape..and also kill harry becuase he sucks at magic so much lol...=)

but then i thought..with dumbledore dying this makes it so much more real for harry..and hopefully harry will step up and be the person he was born to be..

When i read that Dumbledore died i actually felt incredibly sad and started to cry a little bit. One of my Favorite characters in the books was killed and is now gone. i felt so heartbroken and i felt bad for harry because dumbledore was very close to him. Dumbledore was and still is a great wizard who will always be remembered no matter what.

I think until the seventh book some of us will refuse to believe that DD is dead by whatever theory we can come up with


the best i see so far are:

Dumbledore has a Horcrux..... makes sense seein as the only thing i see evil about a horcrux is the actually act of murder which results in the splitting of the soul, so when DD defeated Grindwald he would have inevitably had his soul split.... why not use this imperfection to his advantage


Polyjuice potion of some sort...... all throughout the book i have seen hints of the use of poly juice potion used with DD, one is that he switched with PP another i noticed was in the beginning of the book when he stood up so quickly to use the bathroom, probably to drink more potion, then when they arrived at the Burrow Tonks wont look at his eyes, probably because it was lupin at the time portraying him.... again at the end of the book DD uses a phial full of memories he calls his own, if they were his then why would he need to use a glass?

DD is a phoenix...... dont know how this will work out but you all see the signs right in front of you so dont deny them

Dumbledore being alive, having tricked every ally he has, and put Harry through all of that misery would make me want to throw the book across the room. Harry had to learn to act on his own, and I personlly think Dumbledore had to die. He wasn't afraid of it. Why is seeing him go on to that next great adventure so difficult? I'm sure Harry will be able to talk to that portrait of his, if he needs to, so what's the real harm in it? And Jo did confirm that the talking protraits of are dead people. If Dumbledore is not, then she lied, And she doesn't do that. She misleads, but she doesn't outright lie.

And I don't see why having a pet phoenix, and a phoenix patronus are evidence that he IS one.

ok Jo wouldnt have lied by saying all portraits are dead because im sayig DD is dead, but will come back
it would make sense for the hero to move on but the mentor to come back, think about frodo and gandalf

plus just having a phoenix pet and patronus wasnt my only evidence

his body burst into flames....come on what more of a sign do you need

i dont think he will come back to help Harry outright, maybe he will be lurking in the shadows..... maybe he created the R.A.B as a surname to aid HArry in the end.... but i do believe that after the last battle when harry will inevitably knocked unconcious we will wake up to find dumbledores half-moon spectacles and sparkling blue eyes peering at him, like old times.... like it should be

again think of frodo and gandalf

Oh dear. Am I the only one who didn't feel sad? I was sort of expecting him to die. While I was reading the book, I already narrowed it down to two people: Snape or DD. Towards the end it got obvious that DD was the one to go, because he was passing on to Harry all his knowledge. Anyway, when the time came, I had pretty much come to terms with it and just read on. It was necessary. And yes, I think he'll remain dead. Hehe

I am like Hiraya. I had figured that DD would be the one to die. He had injuries which for DD was unheard of, he was passing on his knowlege to Harry and preparing him for future events. Why would that be happening if DD was going to still be around? He wouldn't let Harry face Voldemort if he was around to stop it.

I didn't know at the time that anyone was going to die. I am a strange lad. I actually didn't start reading the books until I read HBP. I then went back and read all the others . I just got the feeling as I was reading that DD was going to die. All the events leading up to it pointed to DD dying and Harry having to face things alone.

While I was sad to see DD go I am not surprised. It all started with Voldemort and Harry and that is how it should end. Harry and Voldy facing each other for the last time and only one will survive. There is no telling what JKR will do especailly in light of her recent interviews but if I may be so bold I think that is what she had in mind as well from the beginning.

That is your opinion, and i respect that, buthow can you honestly think that all those clues.... subtle and right in your face... mean absoltuely nothing..... How can you deny the perfect setup for Dumbledores Death... he froze Harry before Draco Eaters.. amble enoguh time to disarm Draco instead.. he wanted Harry not to interfere.... I dont think Dumbledores Death was in vain..... plu si believe it would be disrespectful for JKR to hold DD on such a high pedestal and have him die cowering like Pettigrew... oh wait that reminds me of another theory.... hehe

Hello, Albus. I understand from all your posts that you firmly believe DD is going to come back to life. Thing is, "the subtle clues" that are right in our face mean nothing to us basically because we want DD to stay dead. Okay, I shouldn't speak for others, so I should stop using "we." Hehe It really has something to do with the person's mindset. You say that evidence is pointing towards DD coming back to life, while I can say that you're reading too much into the book. I'm not attacking you, I'm just saying we all have our own theories, therefore we can conveniently ignore the ones that don't support ours. Oh, and by the way, I don't think DD died cowering like Pettigrew. *wink wink* Hehe

Anyway, somebody posted about the DD-is-Pettigrew theory, and one of the points got me thinking.



Yeah, isn't this one from the Cave scene when Harry was forcing DD to drink the vile liquid? Okay, so the premise is the DD that was with Harry in the Cave is actually PP in Polyjuice. It doesn't sit well with me, because only a powerful wizard could have gotten in the Cave and I'll be damned if Pettigrew is as powerful as DD. Also, from the Cave, DD rushed with Harry back to Hogwarts on Rosmerta's brooms, right? And while heading towards it, DD was undoing the wards he had placed when he left Hogwarts? Again, I'll be damned if DD actually taught Pettigrew how to undo the wards. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Ohh I dont think that DD would ever teach Peter how to undo the wards especially after his first bit of treason... I also really don think that DD is Peter at all, i just pump out possible theorys to discuss. I stand firmly behind my phoenix theory. well not really mine but i think i have contributed quite a bit

Dumbledore didn't die cowering like Pettigrew. He died as he was already dying, in my opinion, and used his last moments to save Snape and Draco. That's heroic enough for me. My foreshadowing is his whimpering when he was drinking the poison. It sounded like he wanted to suffer so his students would not suffer, and that's what basically happened. I think that liquid was working kind of like a boggart. As it poisons you, you see your greatest fears. It also explains why he wanted to get back to Snape right away at Hogwarts. He wanted Snape to stopper the death if he could, but if he couldn't, Dumbledore was ready to die for the greater good.

I thought he had to die for Harry to come into his own, and I'm convinced that's what will happen. We had these same arguments when Sirius died, and we didn't even get a funeral for him.

Jo has said in interviews that magic cannot bring the dead back, and that she won't do that. She had it in the books, too. Magic cannot bring back the dead. So if Dumbledore is dead, Dumbledore has to stay dead, for Jo not to have lied.

Im sorry but dont u remember. First, Harry didnt lose DD. He can ask the portrait in his office or Mccgonagal. Secondly, DD is dead because his portrait is in his office. It is a portrait of all the former headmasters of hogwarts.

ok... where to begin. I hate to say it but JK defies her own statement about magic not bringing back the dead everytime we see fawkes. Fawkes has died in front us, what two times, and subsequently resurrected. As for the statement that Dumbledore is Dead because of his portrait I have two things to say. One, we do not know that you have to be dead to be on the wall of former Headmasters. Yes it would be logical, but it was never specifically said. Two, I think he died. Therefore his portrait would be on the wall, but in the slumbering state he is in. If we follow Fawke's Law (ooh i like that) then Dumbledore would be able to come back because if you look at it literally, one could say that magic couldnt "bring" back people from death. But if magic were used well prior to the death, then once the person died they could be "back". What I think JKR is trying to say is one cannot bring peopel back from the dead who havent already decided upon the magic. I think it work similar to the way ghosts are sent back. Maybe there is a journey of sorts that causes a delayin the coming back of ghosts and perhaps Dumbledore.... that would explain the immediate slumbering.

DD used to be the Transfiguration teacher, and he's the best wizard of the century. that's like a 98% guarantee that he's an animagus right there, and his patronus and pet are, in my opinion, clues to what animal he would become... what else would he become, phoenixes pretty much can't die, their tears heal, they can carry heavy burdens.

I think DD tricked everyone so he can spend all the time he can hunting down the horcruxes, not having to waste time being headmaster of hogwarts, leader of the OotP, or any of that other stuff... and in the books there are mixed meanings... only once in all the books does it mention DEAD headmaster/headmistress portraits, all the other times it mentions PAST headmaster/headmistress, so I still think DD is alive

I wanted to bring something back to some peoples attention. Everyone says that Dumbledore cant be an animagus because he wouldnt have not been Registered. Well there is some counter-evidence to that statement. Dumbledore would have been registered in last centuries animagus registry, not like Minerva who is on this centureis, because of his age. Also if DD really needed a disguise he would do something illegal like that, remmebr he attacked the ministry in his office for what he thought was right. i know i am not the only one to say this but i wanted to disprove some evidence once and for all.... hopefully

exactly, Albus Dumbledore, and that reminds me of something else I forgot to say before, since DD is over 100 years old, how is he still alive? does he possibly have some elixir of life from the sorcerer's stone still? If so, the AK curse and the fall would not kill him, but they would at least make him unconscious.

Yes, Jo did say it. She said the talking portraits were all of dead people. I'm pretty sure we discussed that quote at one time, but if the link's not here, I'll go get the link. I read it on the Lexicon, at Madam Scoop's.



Again, because Jo said Wizards and witches live longer than normal muggles, which is why Madam Marchbanks tested Dumbledore in school, and she is still testing students. Should I go get a link for that?

As for Fawkes not dying when he grows old, Jo didn't invent the phooenix, He's not one of her original characters. The phoenix legend has been around for hundreds of years. Their magic has always been that they are able to be reborn, which isn't the same as not dying anyway. They die, then are reborn and live completely new lives, which is not what most fans think Dumbledore will do.

I'm not trying to be rude, but if we have facts to back up what we say, it's frustrating when they are ignored.

Those links would be greatly appreciated (by me at least )



Saying the portraits are of dead people is different than saying that you need to be dead to have a talking portrait in the headmaster/headmistress's office. All throughout the books these portraits are referred to as past/previous headmasters/headmistresses, only once do the books mention dead headmasters/headmistresses. However, if JKR said it in an interview or something, that would explain a lot. Again, those links would really help and thanks for your info. I haven't read all of her interviews, so I don't always know things she says that are important in the books

First of all, the links wont be necessary, I felt there was some rude sarcasm as that post went on, when referring to the links. As for Dumbledores age, I could care less if he was 1000 years old, age, as you said, isnt a factor in the wizarding world, as it is in the muggle world... as you thought we needed reminding of with Marchbanks. And Yes i know she did not create the Phoenix, but to say that Fawkes dying and being reborn is different from a wizard dying and being reborn is foolsih, because no mattter if she created the creature/character or not, she created the world they reside in, so they must follow her running htmes and/or laws of her worlds nature.



Saying that they live completely new lives is not very logical in this series, because as we know JKR describes Fawkes as very loyal, if we follow your description of the Phoenix, Fawkes could rise from the ashes, not know who Dumbledore is, and just leave, for according to you, it is a completely new life.


Another note, How can you use the statement



against my Theory when that is exactly what i believe he will do.



Going back to the first thing you said on your post



As for the portrait thing, it is a useless piece of evidene that Dumbledore wont reurn, becausee to resurrect int he fashion of a Phoenix, you must die first... hence the portrait.. perhaps this may explain Dumbledores immediate slumbering.


Either way, again im repeating myself, there is blatent Phoenix symbolism is regards to Dumbledore, even if you dont want to think he will return or not. Yes i most likely made a mistake when i referred to the portraits on the wall, but in my thinking, an author saying that all the portraits we have seen are of dead people, doesnt mean all of htem will be dead in the future. I would have thought this prospect would have been easier for people to understand when, especially, we learned of existance of horcruxes.... if you can have multiple pieces of your soul lying around.... and some even acting of its own will, (as in the diary in CoS) then why could a very powerful wizard not create an "imprint" of himself in a portrait, while still living. Doesnt that make sense

DD would definitely have the power to leave an imprint of himself in his portrait, and as for his sleeping- wouldn't you think Harry or McGonagall or anyone would wake him up to ask him why he believed Snape, and all of that stuff. I'm sure Harry would have wanted to ask if DD knew anyone named RAB too.

Going back into solid facts and qoutes from the book, I just want to recap with a few rhetorical questions, most likely for anyone that needs them to organize their thoughts, i know i need guidelines to think my theories straight through

Why Did Snapes AK knock DD off the tower?

Why Did his Body Burst into flames?

Should we really trust DD with his decision on Snape?

again, rhetorical, for the good of others, plus myself

Considering the title, I think this would be the place to put down my thoughts on Dumbledore's death. Just have to get it out of my system. Hope you don't mind..

First of all, I'm sure Dumbledore's really dead. But it was so unexpected. I always saw him as a character that will be there until the end. At the end of each book, he will be there to somehow make things right.. And he was the only one Voldemort feared, too. I mean, it's little hard to believe now that good will ultimately triumph and that the Dark Lord will be defeated withoug Dumbledore's help and knowledge. Of course, he passed on his theory about Voldemort to Harry, which was vital, but still. So sad..
And the funeral.. I lmost cried when I read the last chapter. I still can barely stand hearing about a white tomb..

P.S. Sorry for all the whining.. =)