ponder this for a moment...could it be possible in any sense that the reason that Dumbledore cast the spell on harry to freeze him in place and make him watch his death was in order to use the same magic his mom did when voldemort killed her, once again making it impossible for him to touch harry? this is obviously said presuming that Dumbledore is really dead.. any ideas?

Mod Edit- just letting you know that I've edited your title to make it easier to pick up in searches

hmm that is a very good question


but i doint hink that that will happen

because:

DD liked harry alot BUT he didnt LOVE him like a son

like his mom did. but it could happen but i doubt it

possible but unlikely, i think that DD did this one to save harry because harry would have ran and tried to face off all the death eaters, and two it was for harry to finish off the quest of getting rid of all the horcruxs.

it just didnt make sense to me because why wouldnt dumbledore have fought along with harry instead of allowing himself to die..i know he wanted harry tu fulfill the prophecy but he also had to have been worried about the wellbeing of the other students in his school along with the teachers..

No, I think that the protection is blood-based so it wouldn't work with Dumbledore. Plus I think that there's the whole 'mothers love' thing that was an integral part of the protection and though Dumbledore obviously cares a great deal for Harry, it's not the same as a mother's love.

It's a nice theory though It did get me thinking there for a moment...

That being said, I think that maybe, in a roundabout way, he did sacrifice himself...but not to give Harry protection. That's a topic for another thread though, I guess

i have to agree, ok DD did show harry alot of favor in the books but in all honesty i think he only does so becuase harry is diffrent from the other kids hes the one who has to protect them and DD in my opinion his love lies with the school and all the students. I think that he did die one yes to protect harry from the DE's but also his death would bring a huge change in the school. Maybe possilby his death could result in the unification of the houses that the sorting hat was talking about in the 5th book.

Dumbledore did love Harry, and I assume it takes Love to do whatever Lily did when she put that protection on Harry. But I dont think Dumbledore loved Harry as much as his own mother did, you know? So basicaly, I dont really agree that he gave Harry protection flat out.

He also didnt directly give his life up for Harry like Lily did.

kbye

Alec

I could have sworn there was another topic on this exact same thing somewhere on the forums, I remember posting in it, but maybe I'm just going crazy . Anyway, I think the reason the reprocussions of the deaths weren't the same is because Lily directly choose to die inplace of Harry. DD just choose to freeze Harry to keep him out of danger. DD didn't nessesarily choose to die for Harry. Don't get me wrong, if he had the choice to I'm sure he would have, but freezing Harry didn't insure that he (Dumbedore) would die. However, in Lily's case, she choose to protect Harry knowing full-well the reprocussion would be her death. If that makes any sense.

I hope the last book has a strong theory about the power of love. It's been a subtle and sometimes not so subtle theme throughout the books but badly needs to be culminated in the final book. I don't think we've seen the last of Dumbledore or Lily.

Another loose end I'd like to see tied up is the small things like "who sent the cloak of invisibility to Harry in Book 1 on behalf of his father". Has that ever been answered? Too many questions, too little time!

On the invisibility cloak, I sure it said that Dumbledore gave it to harry when they were talking in the room with the Mirror of Ereised.

I think that Dumbledore did sacrifice himself for Harry, Hogwarts and everyone. If Harry had attacked the Death Eaters hed would have surley been killed. If not captured, disarmed and taken to Voldermort who would have killed him. With no Harry, no Dumbledore, Voldermort coulkd eaisly take over again. I don not think that the power of love comes into this at all

I don't really think the power of love comes in either. I'm thinking alone the same lines as Nimbus is. But as for Harry being captured/killed, I don't think he would have. Snape had a chance to capture him, but he chose not to. Either Voldemort wants to kill Harry on his own terms, or perhaps Snape is still good and knew he couldn't let Harry die. That however is off topic.

I too thought about this, reading this chapter.

But now it's not Voldemort. It is Snape. So, maybe when (and if) Snape will try to kill Harry the power of Love will works. But only against Snape.

Okay.. I think that Dumbledore died to save people who are needed to play a big role in defeating Voldemort. Yes, if Dumbledore is actually dead then there is a lot that is gone. But have you ever thought that Dumbledore also died to save Snape? Because by Snape 'killing' Dumbledore, Snape is keeping his unbreakable vow that he made to Narcissa? If Snape would have broke that, which was only made saying that Snape would finish the job if Malfoy could not, Snape would have died and if Malfoy didn't kill Dumbledore then its almost certain that Voldemort would have killed Malfoy. So by Dumbledore dying or is thought to be dead then he has saved Harry, Snape, and Malfoy.

Do you guys remember in HBP when Hagrid told Harry that he saw Dumbledore and Snape arguing in the forest? Well I think that it was because Dumbledore was telling him the plan and Snape didn't want to go through with it.... or something like that. So I think that Snape is good, but I guess thats for another thread .

Aha! I'm glad someone brought this up, because I never would've figured it out until I had read book 6 five times!

I think that Dumbledore's death will definitely bring some sort of extra protection for Harry, but the thing is, Dumbledore didn't die for Harry specifically. Snape wasn't holding the wand up to Dumbledore's head saying, "It's you or Harry. Your decision." He actually didn't know that Harry was there.

I think DD died to save Malfoy as well. And someone had to kill DD because of the unbreakable vow, so that way Snape could still spy on the DE...if he's really on the Odrer's side.

I honestly dont know if i agree with the whole snape harry malfoy triangle its defintely possible but I have a feeling that dumbledore knew about snape the whole time and maybe he also knew something else about him all im saying is that the malfoy saving thing is more probale then the snape idea i also agree with fawkes but i do have a feeling harry will have some kind of prtection however small or large

i just thought it never gave an expire by date for dumbledore did it so couldnt they gone forever and like killed dumbledore when he was a bout to die would have made more sense ahh i forgot that malfoy ahdf to kill him because of LV who would have gave him a reasonable amount of time but killing him at he got tired of weaiting....

I definately see the similarity between the sacrifice that dumbledore made and the sacrifice that lily made. they both saved harry of course. but was dumbledore just saving harry? i know most of this thread and it's posts have pondered the idea that dumbledore could have also been protecting malfoy as well. could dumbledore have known about the vow between snape and mayfoy. it's possible in that he was trying to protect malfoy but it may also be unlikely. if dumbledore is hurt or in any sort of trouble harry tries to help him and vice versa so dumbledore was probably protecting harry more at the time than snape or even malfoy.

since lily's death/sacrifice that she made for harry gave him the power of love, which may be what everything comes down to, i think that when dumbledore sacrificed himself he gave harry perhaps more love or a different type of protection. whatever the case he had a plan and he gave up his life for harry mostly and perhaps the possiblity of malfoy too but again i think it may be unlikely. but only jk has the answers for now.

I think that (as many have already said) there has to be blood connection. But even if we overcome this obtacle, Harry will soon be an adult, which means that all kind of protection is lost. Harry will be vulnerable from now and on... Good question though!

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That all most got me. I think that the connection between DD to Harry is only favortism but not love. I also think that for the spell to work you have to be blood. I think that the whole point of Harry being Frozen was to indeed not get in the way. DD knew he couldn't help Harry forever. that is why he's been training him all year.

i think your right in saying that he died to give harry protection but not in the same way that lily did.

I think that the phrase what doesnt kill us makes us stronger....*ok i dont even know if thats even a phrase ...oh well *

anyway...the loss of sirius in book 5 saved harry because of the love he felt for him and when Lv possessed him he couldnt handle the love he felt.

Maybe losing dumbledore will also make him feel more love for all the people he loves and has lost...eventually helping him to defeat LV...or i could be making up a load of rubbish!

haha

D.A

I must disagree . Dumbledore loved Harry, not a doubt in my mind. A some-what fatherlike love, nothing like the love Harry's parents had for him, but a different type of love. Not a doubt in my mind.

But, I like the thought of that. Dying for love. Lily did do that, but she died literally bodying up in front of Voldemort, shielding him and ready to fight Voldemort off and away from Harry at all costs.

Dumbledore's death was, if I may say so...odd. It just wasn't a normal death. The panic at the end, the unknowing, the calm face shifting to a look of utter fear. I just can't really say. But that was different also. So I don't think so. It would be interesting to find out though, I won't turn it down completely .

That's interesting, but if we revisit the circumstances under which Harry was able to deflect the killing curse, it happened because Tom wanted to kill Harry while Lily begged him not to. She kept pleading for Tom to spare Harry and take her life instead. Tom did exactly that and in effect may have inadvertently sealed a form of unbreakable vow- kind of Lily's life in exchange for Harry's. Both had wands in the hand and there was magic around so the pact may have kind of kicked in, or it may have kicked in because Lily was absolutely adamant on her stand. Tom then turned his wand on Harry to kill him, but the pact possibly disallowed him from doing so and in the process cast the fate he wished upon Harry, back onto himself.

Now nothing like this happened in case of Dumbledore. The death eaters were there to kill Dumbledore; they didn't even know that someone else was there much less Harry. Dumbedore merely ensured that Harry would not be noticed and out of harms way. In effect Dumbledore did sacrifice himself at the same time ensured that Harry would be safe. But he did not sacrifice himself for Harry. Like Fawkes90 pointed out, it wasn't Dumbedore or Harry. It was always going to be Dumbledore and he made sure that Harry was not caught in the middle.



I agree this is off topic but I thought I would briefly respond to it anyway. It's more likely that Voldemort told his death eaters not to touch Harry as he wanted to kill him himself. No death eater would dare disobey a direct order from the master himself. What Snape said was "Have you forgotten, he belongs to the dark lord". He reminding the death eaters that hey wereto leave Harry for Tom. Voldemort believes that with Dumbledore gone, Harry would be a sitting duck. Perhpas this arrogance will prove to be his downfall.

Correct me if im wrong but wasnt harry able to deflect the curse because the prophocy (sp) stated that LV would "mark him as his equal"...obviously LV did not know this as he didnt hear the whole thing.

I was under the impression that when lily protected harry (and in effect getting killed by LV) this made some sort of protection that ran through harry's veins that wouldnt allow voldermort to touch harry after LV had actually tried to kill him in the first place..and that gave him protection at lilly's sisters house as she too had the same blood running through her veins...or am i completely muddling things up??

but anyway...i think that the fact harry has lost many people that he loved will make him stronger...he has now lost dumbledore too love will flow through him even more. seeing as i think dumbledore planned his death to help harry defeat LV i think i would call it protection .

D.A

I think you have a point there. you actually point out a flaw in my assertion. If there indeed was an unbreakable vow-type magic there, then how did the blood protection come into place unless there was something more to it than that. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll have to re-think that one over.

As far as the killing curse being deflected goes, it could be explained that this event happened because Tom chose to fulfill the prophecy and not because prophecy warranted it. Like Dumbledore said that many prophecies remained unfulfilled and it was only Tom's belief in the prophecy and his eagerness to eliminate his foe that led him to Potters that fateful night. What happened afterwards was because of Tom's kickstarting the prophecy. He did not expect that Lily would sacrifice herself for Harry and thereby providing him with an ancient protection as he had not heard the full prophecy except the first two lines. He was aware that what Lily did was ancient magic as he acknowledged later, but he overlooked it in the heat of the moment and his arrogance, thereby bringing about his own downfall.

This really upset me. Yes, Dumbledore dying to protect Harry was brave and chivalrous, and we all love him for doing it. However, the thing that gets me is that it didn't have to be that way! He weakened himself with that horrible potion, drinking it again and again, so when cornered by Snape he couldn't defend himself, for nothing! It wasn't even the Horcrux! Argh! Ok sorry just had to get that rant out.
Yes, I can see how this is like when Lily died to protect him. Harry noticed it too: "And Harry saw very clearly as he sat there under the hot sun how people who cared about ihm had stood in front of him one by one, his mother, his father, his godfather, and finally Dumbledore, all determined to protect him..." (645 HBP) Now we will have to wait and see what happens next, as Harry was determined that he would let no one else die to save him again...

Hey, that's a good idea. I mean there are loads of theoreys as to why Dumbledore died. But that's, another good one. Maybe Dumbledore did it to protect Harry a little bit longer. Just long enough untill he destroys the Horcruxes.
I mean we know that Harry's getting older and the protection, isn't lasting, long now. But Dumbledore is a very powerful wizard, he probably could hold protection longer.

i´m not sure about this protection theory ...
DD died and he also protected harry with his charm... but he actually had no choice...
snape didn´t ask him...as LV did with lily ( and i still don´t understand why he did that!)
and the unbreakable vow had to be fullfilled.
so there is a number of facts which make the circumstances of DD death much different than the death of lily potter...
anyway i liked the idear

God, I think I will stop reading threads because they just make me more confused xD.

I would have never thought of that! It is very interesting indeed... I really like this theory, although it means that DD is really dead But that would explain the theory that DD died because he wanted to, and probably Snape killed him because he ordered him to.
If this is true, let's hope that in book 7 Harry has an advantage, a new and unknown weapon in the final battle U_U

xD

I think your idea is great Kenny!

I think DD DID love Harry like a son... he says himself he had made "..the mistake of caring for Harry too much" (at the end of OOtP).. I think of anyone DD is well placed to be in the position to make that sacrifice for Harry.

If we get technical then there is speculation about whether DD's action was a direct sacrifice of his life to save Harry's.. after all, the DeathEaters and Draco were there for DD, not for Harry, and they even avoid hurting him (well, mostly) because he is "too be left for the Dark Lord".

It's a great theory tho.. it would be cool for Harry to go into the final chapter, the final battle, with that extra protection.

Hmmm....about the whole "extra protection" thing......Sounds like it could work. Like Lily's protection of love you mean? Hmmm....didn't think about that before. Sounds good. But I've been wondering....what form of protection (if any) do you think Dumbledore bestowed upon Harry? A spell, a charm....or an object? Because I was thinking...do you think he left Fawkes for Harry? And now it will change-he'll be loyal to Harry, be there for him with his healing tears, incredible strength, and rebirths? Just a thought.....Maybe that's how Dumbledore planned to pass Fawkes down....Fawkes would go on forever but Dumbledore knew that eventually he would die.....and Fawkes would have to go to someone...

Very good, I thought that too, Fawkes was going to Harry. Hopefully in all the joy of a "CATCHING FIRE BIRD!!" that he'll still pay attention to Hedwig. I think Dumbledore has to sacrifice himself for Harry, and Snapes protection.

I've had second thoughts about this protection theroy.. It wont work because that protection doesn't work any more.. Voldermort could touch Harry in GOF.. And didn't he say that it was old magic and it doesn't work now. So it actually wouldn't work.

No, it was "Ancient Magic" that he (Voldemort) overlooked, and the blood he took from Harry allowed him to touch him only. Dumbledore sepcifically says to go to Privet Drive to recieve the last of your protection, for when he turns 17, the protection is over. Lily's Sacrifice was only made effective this long because of the Blood Charm Dumbledore performed allowing the protection to ensue as long as Harry could "call home the place where your mother's blood dwells"... so the protection is still there, just not for long.

~Albus

That’s a really good idea but I don’t think Dumbledore LOVED Harry. Dumbledore just liked Harry as his man through and through. I’m pretty sure Dumbledore hasn’t loved anyone unless he had girlfriends when he was younger?

I don't think it has anything to do with love directly (well, it does a bit). Voldemort gave Lily a chance to live, but Lily decided "no", she decided to die to protect her son (okay, so obviously, this is LOVE, and all, but...), so that is why it happened. Dumbledore was not given a chance to live. Okay, sure, he sort of protected Harry by freezing him, but the plan was not orignally "Kill Harry", it was (I believe) "Kill Dumbledore". No one said to Dumbledore, "Hey, hand Harry over, whereever he is, and I'll let you live!" So that's why "I think it didn't work.

i don't think that it was love protection, but maybe some ancient magic that DD knew?like he had a choice to live or die, but he chose to die.he got th choice the moment he used the spell on harry,he couldve easily just won over malfoy even his his weakened state, then they could have run off. i think he somehow gave harry some piece of knowledge, or some random power that will come into play in book 7



~Sora

I don't know that I agree with you. Dumbledore in explaining his role in the death of Sirius, said that the failure to tell Harry about the prophecy earlier, was because he was a fool who loved. Dumbledore's description of watching Harry's life, and He watched closer than Harry could know, demonstrated DDs profound love for Harry. I saw his arrival at 4 Privet Dr. as the coming of the beloved foster father who was setting straight the ones who were supposed to care for Harry.

Even if the love is not like Lily's, it is still a deep and abiding love that can add some layer of protection. I think this is part of DDs overall plan.

I also think that DD passed along some type of protection, but what that may be is hard to guess. He could have put some protection over Hogwarts, which I think will be the final battleground. He could have old magic which only he, or very few anyhow would know about. Remember LV forgot about the old magic of Lillies love protection. So hopefully it is something that will save harry at a crucial moment. I think he will also have to battle several DE's and that's where this will probobly come in handy. I hope it's against bellitrix because she seems to be the meanest of the DE's

Well everyone knows that Voldemort wants to kill Harry!!! And so Dumbledore would protect Harry not just because of that but because Harry shows a lot of care to Dumbledore and Dumbledore has respect for Harry!! But what I am wondering is why Snape and Malfoy never took Harry with them to Voldemort to finish him off???

How did AD know Lily Sacrificed her self that night to save HP unless he was there to witness the event will HP work this out

Lily sacrificed herself to protect Harry, who was in danger. Malfoy was not their to kill harry, so harry was not in as much danger as dumbledorr. Dumbledor made it possible for harry to be safe, but he did not die for harry. He simply died while protecting harry. Dumblerdorr told harry earlier how the power of love affected harry so because Lily died to save him, even though she could have run. They wernt after harry, and they wernt going to let Dumbledor run , so it is different.

i dont think so, the reason why lilly protected harry so good, is because she was his mother, mother and son have a strong bond, and the mothers there to protect the child so only lilly could do that, dd and harrys bond is not as strong as lillys and harrys

Hmmm...I'm not sure but I don't think it's likely. Lilly was his mother and that's a very strong bond. Although DD was like Harry's mentor I don't think their bond was that strong. I keep trying to read the chapter when DD died to see if he really didn't see it coming or he if he did. Right now it confuses me still

I have already thought about that. Dumbledore sacrificed himself for protecting Harry. Otherwise, why would he die, right? Today I've watched again HP and the philosopher's stone, and during Snape's class he said he was able to revert (or something like that) death. If he does, maybe Dumbledore is not really dead. Until now, it's difficult to reach a conclusion. Maybe both situations should be taken into consideration.

I have already thought about that. Dumbledore sacrificed himself for protecting Harry. Otherwise, why would he die, right? Today I've watched again HP and the philosopher's stone, and during Snape's class he said he was able to revert (or something like that) death. If he does, maybe Dumbledore is not really dead. Until now, it's difficult to reach a conclusion. Maybe both situations should be taken into consideration.

I don't think that there will be protection, beecause DD doesn't have the same blood as Harry. Also, DD didn't really protect Harry, because the death eaters weren't after Harry, they were after DD. The death eaters didn't even know that Harry was there, so I fail t osee how DD was even protecting Harry. To me it seemed that DD stopped Harry from protecting himself.

seeing as the protectoin was from Lily's love, I dont think DD did anything to protect harry. DD may hav loved Harry but I dont really think so. The love was definently not stong enough to protect harry, and he was hit by curses soon after the death and there didnt seem to be any protection

I know this may sound wild but maybe DD wanted to expand the shield that is magically apon Harry..you know the think that Voldemort doesn't have, and that Harry does( love) and when Harry goes out to find Voldemort and the Horcruxes maybe hes gonna need it to help him in the battle between him and Voldemort

~I told u my post would sound wild but its just a thought~

NO

dumbledore wanted harry to witness all of this

thats all. Theres none of the stuff to do with love nd protection. DD sed himself that hes gna stop all protection when harries 17

consider this: perhaps Dumbledore sacrificed himself for Draco. If Draco has the love-protection that Harry had from Lily, perhaps we will see some good come out of Dumbledore's sacrifice/Draco. This is for those who believe Harry and Draco will unite for the destruction of Voldemort.

*Neville Loves Me*