When Harry and Dumbledore go into the cave, Dumbledore figures out where the entrance is(to the thing where the Horcrux is) and where the boat is, how do you think Dumbledore finds them. I know he says Magic leaves traces but what might those traces be? Something only he can see?

FleurDelacour

That bit sort of reminds me of when Harry first enters Ollivander's in the first book. I don't have my book next to me at the moment, but it says he could "feel" the magic in the store. I expect it is something simular to that that Dumbledore feels.

Thank you for clearing that up. nimbus

Mod Edit: Welcome to the Forums FleurDelacour. Please take a moment to read through the rules. The link is in my signature. One-liners are not permitted on this Forum. If you are unsure of anything else please feel free to PM myself or one of the other Moderators.

I agree with Nimbus. Dumbledore can feel traces of it. I'm guessing it's like what a spell goes through the air it leaves a feeling there, so that if one wanted to they could trace the spell to it's origin (where it was cast from) and where it stopped having hit a person or object.

I also think that as time goes by the memory of the spell doesn't disipate, otherwise DD wouldn't have felt it when they first entered the Cave.

well i think DD knew by the memory of riddle

i remeber riddle saying he goes to the ocean once a year and went into a cave. im sure thats the cave riddle was talking about if you ask me.

~curse_wiz~

I think the reason that DD could find the boat and not Harry is because he is a more experinced wizard. The magic LV left probably was not 'strong' enough for a young wizard like Harry to feel. Good point about Olivanders though.

Yes a very good point in Olivanders. I also agree with 'magical_number_7'. Dumbledore could trace the magic in the cave, beacuase he is a more experienced wizard. I mean i think any wizard could trace magic but it would to have to be a stong one, for example in a wand shop! Also another reason that Harry might not have senced it because Vodlermort has his own 'style'.

So when Harry says something like, 'How did you find that sir?' DD replies ' I tought Tom,I know his style.' ( or Voldermort what ever name he used).

I think you're exactly right, Nimbus. Harry can "feel" magic, as I'm sure most wizards can. The trick here was Dumbledore being able to discern exactly which spells were used and what their purposes were. He said that all magic leaves traces but that some leaves distinct traces. A Hover Charm, like the one Dobby used on the pudding in CoS, would most likely leave a faint trace as it's not very strong or complicated magic. A more powerful Charm, Jinx, or Curse would leave a more distinct trace since it's stronger and more complicated. We have an example of this in CoS also - when DD was muttering over Mrs. Norris after she had been petrified by the Basilisk. He knew that she was not dead, but he didn't know how she had been petrified exactly.

So this brings me to the cave......DD was able to discern the exact charms that Riddle had used to create the concealed archway and boat. When he got to the potion, however, he was able, by logical deduction, to figure out what it *wasn't*. But he wasn't able to tell what exactly the potion would do.

I also think that DD could feel the magic because he is more experienced. In OotP there is also proof that wizards can feel spells w/o them being directed at them(since the spells in Voldemort's cave aren't directed specifically at them). When DD tries to jinx, curse, or hex Voldemort in the fifth book, Voldemort is forced to conjure a shield. It says that the force of DD's spell was so strong that Harry felt the hairs on the back of his neck stand up. So there are my thoughts!

i love the cave chapter it is so interesting harry should have asked how dumbledore knew that that dore was there and how he made it appear

I feel that Dd should have used the cave scene as more of a teaching experience for Harry. If Harry has to go find the rest of the horcruxes, he will need to know how to detect traces of magic. Dd should have explained this to him especially because Dd knew he would be dead soon.

I think Dumbledore outlined each step in the cave for Harry as a part of a learning experience. I agree that there are magic traces and for someone like Albus, he sure can feel them. However, we also know that he has been researching about Tom's horcruxes. I mean, when he collected that ring from the Gaunt house, he could have faced similar situation. I mean Tom could have laid more traps there.
This time for Harry's sake,he could have just gone slower.

THabk you guys all for helping me figure this out! Also how do you think that potion would affect Harry if he had drank it? Any differences or Similarities? I think HArry might have been killed if he drank it, but maybe not because he didnt die when voldemort tried to kill him so maybe that would still be in affect?

*Fleur*

Dumbledore is just the greatest Wizard of all time. Maybe he has like a 6th sense? Traces of magic, hmmm I agree with Nimbus its quite close to how Harry felt upon entering Ollivander’s.

Dumbledore's a powerful wizard. I have a feeling that what he can do is powerful magic. Well, not magic, really, but he can detect magic, saying it "Always leaves traces"

I think it's just because Dumbledore's a really powerful wizrad and can d great things. Plus he knew tom Riddle "And knows his style"

I did just reread the HBP and just read the cave chapter through the end of the book this evening. One thing that occured to me that didn't my first time around. Why is it that in the cave, neither DD or Harry notice that the locket is NOT the locket from the memories in the pensieve? They both saw it iin the memories with distinct features. Why is it that only after Harry takes it by DD's body that he actually LOOKS at it (and realizes it is the wrong one). One more thought... did DD know that it was not the right one even before he went to go look for it?

If R.A.B. is Regulus A. Black then if he took the original locket then how did the potion get back into the basin thing

Many wizards can "feel" magic, I think it's just an acquired skill that one gains through being around spells constantly and consistently.
To give a Muggle comparison, I presume that it's kind of like when you feel as though you're being followed or watched... while you really have no proof, it's just a feeling of something being abnormal.
My guess is that it's similar with magic... although the feeling of magic in the air is a good one rather than an unpleasant one.
Dumbledore was an extraordinarily powerful and skilled wizard, and, in addition to that, he taught Voldemort at Hogwarts! Naturally, then, he has some inclination to Voldemort's thinking process through being his teacher, but he is also such a great wizard that his ability to detect even the most hidden and subtle spells was probably extraordinary. Harry just, most likely, hadn't acquired this refined of an ability yet.
If we recall, Snape was able to dodge every spell that Harry threw in him during "The Flight of the Prince", even when Harry attemped Levicorpus as a nonverbal spell. Snape is also a rather powerful wizard, perhaps he could sense the "magic in the air" as well?

As for some of the great discussion questions this has brought up:

QUOTE(keetedawn @ 3 February 2007, 6:33 AM)

Why is it that in the cave, neither DD or Harry notice that the locket is NOT the locket from the memories in the pensieve? They both saw it iin the memories with distinct features. Why is it that only after Harry takes it by DD's body that he actually LOOKS at it (and realizes it is the wrong one). One more thought... did DD know that it was not the right one even before he went to go look for it?

In the cave it was probably dark. In addition to that, Harry was frightened and Dumbledore was incredibly weak... they were probably just eager to get the locket and get out of there, not stopping to see what the locket itself looked like exactly. The lockets may have also been very similar and, only under careful examination would have Harry or Dumbledore been able to tell them apart.
I doubt that Dumbledore knew that the locket that they discovered was not the right one, unless R.A.B. is really someone related to Dumbledore, and that locket will greatly improve Harry's chances of defeating Voldemort. Otherwise, why would he put himself through so much pain and suffering, and also lie to Harry saying that was the horcrux?

QUOTE(FleurDelacour @ 6 January 2007 6:10 PM)

Also how do you think that potion would affect Harry if he had drank it? Any differences or Similarities? I think HArry might have been killed if he drank it, but maybe not because he didnt die when voldemort tried to kill him so maybe that would still be in affect?

My guess is that the potion would have equally affected everyone who might have dared to drink it. I do not believe that it would kill Harry; he was, after all, much younger and fitter than Dumbledore, so, if anything, my guess is that the effects would have been less.
I doubt that Voldemort would have made that potion able to kill... while death is far worse than excruciating pain in his mind, my guess is that he would've wanted to make things as torturous as possible, and, with the person weakened, if they did manage to seize the locket, they would have probably been killed on their way out.

Fleur -

This is a good line of thought. I think magical traces are things that a wizard can feel. a kind of hunch or tingly feeling, not something you can see, that would be too easy to spot.

MAybe only a really powerful wizard like the DD can see theses things, i mean we are following the most powerful dar wizard's work now aren't we?

It's gotta be some kinda deja vu, sixth sense kinda thing

It could also be the feeling of like , you know someone has entered the room even if your eyes are closed kind of thing, like you can just feel it. But its probably just similar to that though because if it was exactly like that Harryy could have felt it too.