In my opinion it has to be the Muggle Armed Forces. They massively outnumber the wizards, and have tonnes of firepower.

What a hilarious thing to ponder. A specific episode of Potter Puppet Pals come to mind..."Shoot him!!"-Ron

*Ahem* Anyways, I think the MoM and all their power is far more likely to suceed any military force. Even with all the fire-power imaginable there's still shield spells, summoning spells, various defensive spells, and even the unforgivable curses would do much more damage, IMO, than bullets. Muggles also fear magic; I can see quite a few soldiers deserting once they see a nonmaterial thing killing off their mates.

I have to go for The Ministry, as the can put a force field/ rather large protego charm to avoid getting blown up. Plus they can apparate, they have invisibility cloaks (or marquees) , they have the unforgiveables and broomsticks! YAY!

well, although i dont know much about the british armed forces, but for the americans, i would say the muggles becuse if you take them head on head agianst each other, sure the ministry of magic would win because they could kill and torture masses of them in one step. however, leadership and organizationally wise, it would be the muggle armed forces becuase we have at least some organization, whereas ever since you know who's return, the ministry has been is total disaray!

ta,
-karsh-

I think all of you are massively overestimating the wizards and massively underestimating the British Muggle Soldiers.

If you want to bring CANON into this then show me any time when there has been anything to suggest that wizard kind cannot stop bullets or explosions?

Look at the Quidditch Stadium at the world cup, a 100,000 seater in under a year. Look at the MoM an epically proportioned building hidden from Muggle view, same goes with St Mungoes, Hogwarts, Diagon Alley, Durmstrang Castle, Le Palais De Beauxbatons, Platform 9 3/4, Hogsmeade and what have you. Don't try and pretend that Muggles could protect any thing as well as the Wizarding world protects them.

Look at the bridge in HBP, look at the hurricane in the west country, and you'll see that the Muggles could do nothing to stop them!

But they didn't know and thats the beauty of the wizarding world. I can see were your coming from in all your arguments except, that you cannot deny Wizards stealth. What with Apparition, Invisibilty cloaks, Portkeys, broomsticks (yes they may not be fighter jets but theyre quiet and inconspicuous). No bullet can be sure to kill, as Avada Kedavra can be, no tortuer method so profound as the cruciatus curse, we saw in HBP when Ron through a knife at Bill, he lazily tansfigured it into a paper aeroplane. Well this could be doen with tanks! With bullets! With all sorts of weaponary! Some soldiers driving in a tank, when all of a sudden a wizard wearing an invisibility cloak, transfigures the tank into a cushion! I know invisibility cloaks are rare but there are disillusionment charms aswell.;

ALSO I think you have double posted back there.

And why couldn't they be very far away? How do we know 'Chobham' Armour is too dense, it says on the VG chocolate frog cards that there was a wizard who transfigured a pebble into a diamond and sold it to some muggles. And we know that diamond is the denses substance on earth, so we can suggest it may be possible to transfigure 'Chobham' armour. Previously you commented on wizarding security, well i'd like to see your Muggle armed forces which you appreciate so intensely hide a building the size of the Ministry Of Magic or St Mungoes right in the middle of London>!!

Chobham armour is a composite armour, it may be made out of boron carbide, silicon carbide, aluminium oxide, titanium boride or Syndie, a synthetic diamond composite. Boron carbide is the hardest and lightest, but is expensive, so replica diamonds composites, have been attemptied to be used in armour plating to deflect HEAT rounds. Part of Cobham armour is steel, and the other parts remain a mystery. There are no transfiguration legislations on what is too dense.

Also bullets travel at just over the speed of sound, only so fast as the cordite can propel it, even with a nitroguanidine. A spell will travel at the speed of light and there is nothing to suggest that something similar to an age line can be drawn to transfigure anything that crosses into a teddy bear say.

I see you've been on Wikipedia Nick.

I went with the army, but only because I'm applying to join them! I think if magic really did exist the muggles wouldn't stand much of a chance (especially if Dumbledore were still alive, R.I.P. )

Um...yeah. It's time I stepped in here. Although this is an interesting question and interesting debate can come of it, I am not happy with the tone in here. Not one little bit.

This was set up as a poll, which means that people are entitled to agree with one side or the other. Futhermore, these forums are for friendly discussions. If you choose to debate an issue, might I invite you to join the Dueling Club? That is where debates happen. The forums are set up for discussions.

If the you guys stay in "attack" mode, then this thread will be closed due to poor, and mildly disturbing, attitudes.

I am very sorry Snapelover, but I can't gain acess to the Great Hall.

MOD EDIT: Another thing to avoid is one line posts. You can contact the IS in the Great Hall for information on joining.

Got a bit feisty in here. Like Snapelover said it's best to simmer down and have an intelligent, friendly debate...

You make a really good point Aphrodite, look at hurricaine Katrina, if wizardkind can produce something that appears similar to that, then the muggles can do nothing to stop it. There is other evidence of magical superiority, the Knight Bus for instance, i'd like to see us muggles get a double decker bus through London without being noticed!!! We also know with places like Hogwarts, that Wizards could put up barriers were Muggles would go past, then suddenly forget how to fire a gun,. or something along those lines! We also know that wizardkind has the ability to make electronic items not work, that would be useful. Wizards can use Incendio charms in Guerilla warfare setting fore to weaponary stores which would explode. They could use Aguamenti to swell rivers and flood areas. They could de-fertilise crops, they could burn houses and generally make the public lose heart in the war, and that can have an epic affect on the outcome (Vietnam, Alexanders Crusade, Soviet Union...etc.).

I'm not going to post in this topic again after this I f you believe so distinctly in CANON then it's pointless me even putting forth my points...i'm sure that whatever i say you won't take on board, and i don't want this to spiral into just two people not seeing each others points of view. I can understand what you are trying to say, but i can't understand the means you are attempting to justify it with. So auf wiedersehn, and i hope to see you else where on the forums some time!

I've been meaning to post in here, since it seems like an interesting topic...did you think of it while writing your fanfic Field Marchal?

In my opinion, Muggles do have better weapons, but the magic world has ways, as has been said, to either sabotage those weapons or simply have people forget how to use them. I think Muggles would be freaked out to fight against magic, but would be able to over come this nonetheless. I remember reading about spells or barriers that make Muggles forget things, but I can't remember where it was written in the books. Think about Hogwarts...if a Muggle were to look at it, they'd see a ruin right? Does that mean a wizard/witch army could launch an attack on an army and still not be seen...therefore making attempts to stop this army by Muggles unthinkable because they can't see where it is coming from?

Muggles do have heat sensing devices, magic has the freeze charm. They could even go under water for an extended amount of time. They can boil that water if Muggles were in it, they can freeze it, etc. Dementors could be used to suck out souls...and Muggles can't see them either.

It was mentioned that wizards could use incendio (sp?)...although it isn't back in the day where everything would blow up or something, it still could be used to create chaos and, well...burn people. I'll add more later because I have class in a few minutes...so...

O.k. i lied! I will post it here again. With the electronic devices, Field Marshal, you say that this only because it's Hogwarts. In Goblet of Fire, were Harry suggest Rita Skeeter is bugging them, Hermione says that it is not possible, because there is too muvh magic around. You'd think that there would be quite alot of magic around during a war! In responce to your comments about the good ol' Wild Wild West, well frankly not many muggles would take there weaponary out a store which is on fire, and most weaponary is made of metals which will melt at certain temperatures. As for not being able to find these depots, i can't see that wizards would have a problem to be honest. There is nothing that muggles can hide which wizards haven't been able to find.

To the wizarding world-I'm sorry.
I voted for the muggle armed forces. The Ministry, lately has not shown me that they have any power or control over anything. They seem to be weak and close minded. Dumbledore told them that the Drak Lord was back and they didn't listen. Now that they have discovered for themselves that the Lord is back, it is to late.
That is solely my opinion.

I'm glad we're keeping calm and controlled now, this is a fun discussion.

I didn't think I said the death eaters were the cause of the destruction, giants also are magical creatures are they not? Hurricanes no matter what category they amount to are still dangerous, they're storms with intense power. Even tropical storms can get pretty bad...

Nukes are debatable certainly! Personally I don't think a country would use nukes on their own soil (meaning a populated town, not an Arizonian desert ). It would look suspicious to the rest of the world. But canceling out that fact and saying it's just Muggle military against Wizard-kind, their weapons against ours, sure! Nuclear weapons are just produce massive, massive destruction. If the muggles did manage to slip a bomb in through the wizard forces it would probably detriment those fighting severely.

Asking Jo would solve all answers! Firstly, most of what you say make sense, but about Muggles being able to deevlop technology to setect dementors, How can we develop technology in tracking something which we couldn't believe in in our wildest dreams? That's like the government announcing that it has just developed a device which can locate invisible leprechauns! Yes they can be sensed, but what is the army going to do, fire at nothing? Try and kill the air? I understand what you say and at these depots there will be constant supervision, but i am pretty sure that there will be means of fire which cannot be put out with Co2 or water. Look at Phillibusters Indoor fireworks! I do not doubt for a minute that the wizarding world has the ability to find these depots. Admittedly i have little or no evidense to back up that claim,so i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. As for using Nuclear weapons, the British government would absolutely never permit the use of them on home turf. Look at Chernobyll (sp?) no government in the world would authorise the fireing of nuclear weapons at there own country, thinking about the present, and the future after effects.

That's fanfics, i'm talking about reality here. And if they use ifrared to detect 'em, then what, are they going to fire at nada? And i do wonder what would happen when they shoot a dementor, would it actually die, would there be anything happen to it?

I'm not saying that Muggles would lose a war, I'm just saying that the magical world can put up a pretty good fight. While the Muggles exert resources to use flamethrowers, all wizards/witches do is say a spell or charm...right?

I voted for that the Muggles are stronger...

oh, and Muggles are more in numbers...thats to our advantage.

Hmm... this is an interesting poll. I must say that I voted for the wizards, but the more I started thinking about it, the less certain I've become. Wizards seem to focus a lot more on defending themselves against other wizards, and I'm not sure that they understand the military tactics of Muggles that well. Also, it seems to me that all the healing in St. Mungo's applies to magical maladies; but what about the typical non-magical injury? Can the wizards deal with that -- or, if they can, are they experienced enough in Defence Against the Military Arts?

On the other hand, the wizards can just do some Muggle-repelling charm or obliviate their memories...

McG

Well, it would be impossible for the Ministry to show the muggles magic for a start, and they could also heal people and just knock people out etc. and the Muggles can't do anything to heal them or bring them to life etc. and they could send a million Dementors. That is why I voted for Ministry for Magic.

The dementors are the clincher (like in your story Field Marshall), if anything they'd win a war for the wizards. However, they aren't real loyal to the Ministry anymore, and this is about the British armed forces against the ministry, so perhaps we can count them out for now, same with giants, and Death Eaters for that matter...

Would the Death Eaters unite with everyone else if the Ministry were to be attacked by Muggles?

Theres always some sort of magic that will stop the Muggles from doing something, but the fact remains that there are a lot more Muggles than wizards, at least in Britain since thats where we get our story from.

I also think they've taken precautions so a war wouldn't happen, at least for the good side. The Death Eaters would most likely be the cause of a war if the wizarding world were to start it...at least in my opinion.

I'd say the Ministry of Magic, only because of the things they can do (magic) I mean, one wizard can stop more than a few, dead in his tracks. Course, I've not given a huge amount of thought to this subject, those are just my inital ideas...

HaHa, Isn't It obvious The Ministry of Magic would totally win.

Field Marshal (Bernard Montgomery?), I think if the Ministry knew a Muggle attack was going to happen, then they'd set up those memory charms...and all those crazy charms that would mess things up. Though it would be extremely hard to find all those weapons of mass destruction and place those charms on them. In that sense, then yes, the Muggles would win...and they have allies...and there are more Muggles than 'magical folk'. So they'd outnumber the witches/wizards, out compete, etc.

That is, if there ever is a war. They've been hidden this whole time haven't they? If a Muggle stumbles upon them, then they'd be taken care of (memory reversal thing, etc.). So if there was one, I think it would have to be started by the wizarding world. For one, the Muggles can't find the wizards even if they were looking right at a building or something, you know?

Yeah, see this is where it gets scary... At first glance it looks like no-one will be able to cap the muggle army - I mean, they literally have the means to blow up the earth! But then you click that if Muggles can do that... and wizards have the Imperius curse...

They just need to get to some big shot in the Army and it'll all be over - Muggles can refuse bribes and withstand blackmail to a certain degree, but a Muggle cannot resist the Imperius curse, or can they? I think you need magical power to do that. But anyway, not everyone will be able to do that, so there you go - the perfect inside job.

And if there were to be a direct confrontation, like on a battle field, wizards can apparate, so just imagine the chaos. You're loading a gun or something and someone pops up from behind you and *wham* you're a goner.

Ah, as much as I have respect for soldiers who have given their lives for a cause they believed in, I don't think that they could beat wizards if you look at the power and abilities both sides have. Statistically no - however, as we have seen hundreds of times in, for instance, sport - anything can happen as long as you try hard enough and have a bit of luck on your side.

Can someone resist something such as the imperious curse if they have no idea what it is? It would be like a Muggle stopping a wizard from entering their mind via occlumency (or legilimency...forget which is which). Likewise, I don't think the wizarding world can defend against a nuclear attack or something as horrible as that. The only prevention is to stop them from using it (memory charms).

Anyway, back to the imperious curse. I don't think a Muggle has the knowledge to prevent themselves from being imperioused. I suppose after a few times when they realize whats happening to them, they would be able to resist it. Know what I mean?

ofcourse ministry of magic will be stronger than muggle army because they have wands and wands very powerful.....

thats a good point, Mr_Khan, but I don't think its the wand that makes one powerful...its the person holding the wand...and they must train to use it. But of course the Ministry wouldn't send children out to fight, so theres no problem there. Likewise, the Muggles wouldn't send untrained soldiers out with guns.

Field Marshal, you've been saying that before the wizards could do anything, that the guns would rip them to shreds...basically, right? I think the first battle would show the strengths and weaknesses of both sides, so when they meet again, the witches and wizards wouldn't have to really deal with that issue. They'd either had been able to penetrate their defenses and uses some sort of magic on them so they wouldn't be able to do anything, and other stuff.

And I forgot to say, but the imperious curse is unforgiveable. The Ministry would be condemning themselves if they started using that tactic...even under these circumstances if they ever happened in a story. I say the best defense the Ministry truly has is its invisibility 'allies' and defenses. They just gotta remain hidden so now war or anything comes to them...and I refer to dementors and thestrals as invisible allies...however, one isn't real loyal and the other is more like a horse...

ya

G'day

Why would the british (muggle) armed forces and the ministry be at war in the first place?

Anyway,

I don't know much about the british army but i do know a fair bit about the Australian army and we have one of the best in the world so the british must be great too.

So i'd have to say the Muggle armed forces.

see ya

caity