By request from members of the Duelling Club I have opened this topic to discuss women's place in society.

What do you think the role of a modern woman should be? Should she work? Should she stay at home? Is it the right of society to decide?

Over the past century the role of Women has significantly changed. In the US, women entering the work force during WWII shifted their role in society away from the traditional housewife. By leaving behind their homemaker role, women have gained a more equal place among men but have contributed to other problems such as higher divorce rates and children's issues that were unheard of fifty years ago.

No matter which way you lean, I doubt many would reject the notion that women today are under immense pressure from society. Should they stay home and care for their family or enter the work force? No matter which option they choose, a large segment of society will look down of them.

Let us know your thoughts. Please keep the discussion civil at all times. Everyone one has a right to their opinion and the right to post their thoughts on this topic. Be polite and respectful of others and we will have a great discussion.

I was raised in Switzerland which is a country where the traditional role of women is still practised. As a woman you should have a good education, as education is very important in our country, but after you're married you should stay at home and not work. This is mostly because our school system is not organised/ structured for working mothers. Children go to school from 8-12 am and then again from 2-6 pm. The come home for lunch. There is no way a woman can work a whole day. She can't just let the children be on their own at home. However, you can send your children to a day school.But that is expensive.
What I want to say here is that a Swiss woman has to make the decision to stay at home or go to work. She can't do both. And even if she does (with a lot of organising involved) then society sees her as a bad and terrible mother. This puts a lot of pressure on her.
I study History and I want to work even if I have children, because besides being a mother and a wife a woman also wants to be a woman, a person that wants to fulfill her dreams. But what I get is puzzled looks and people telling me that I'm a bad person if I want to doctorate. But when I say that in this case I don't want children then I'm not a real woman.
Either way, I can't win.

I'd really like to know what it's like in other countries.

Wow laudine, looks like you have a tough time. Here in South Africa people are much more relaxed - luckily. Our country's history is a bit different, and I think it's because of that. My personal take on it is that because racial discrimination continued so far into the last century here, the issue of racism and sexism (70's) happened pretty much at the same time. So when racism was solved in the early nineties, so was sexism. To some degree anyway.

I am Afrikaans, and in our culture women traditionally have a strong opinion and influence in issues such as politics etc. It comes from days when the going was tough and women had to do some manual labour of their own. On the 1800's Afrikaans people were generally very poor and lived rather primitively. At the time of the Anglo Boer War (1899 - 1902), most whites lived in quite rudimental farm houses, and Black people obviously lived in even more primitive conditions. Despite this, people went out of their way to keep their homes and selves as clean as possible - a lot of work for a mother of a large family.

There was only a very short time when women only brought up their kids and sat knitting and embroidering out of sheer boredom, and it was in the beginning of the last century. It's almost as if, because that specific phase society went through was brief, women's position almost returned to its original state when discrimination was abandoned.

Not much had to change. In terms of the African tradition, however, things are quite different. Women's rights is a very new concept, but strangely, a remarkable amount of Black business women enter the work force. I have to conclude that the physical conditions in Africa warranted women to work very hard in the past, and that that tradition has simply been kept up by socially allowing women to enter the work force.

It has actually become an exception for a friend's mum to be a housewife. The social pressure in the middle class is the reverse of what you are experiencing, laudine. Rather, the model of a supermom is being put forward as the ideal.

Olivia, I'm really curious how a single mother in Switzerland would be able to survive and provide for her family.

I think anywhere you are it's a difficult choice for women. We spend all this time and energy and money getting an education, we work for a while, but then when it comes to family, it's either we stop working until the kids become schoolage (at least) or we pay a hefty fortune in childcare costs. And then who really wants their child(ren) in daycare for almost half the day? For single moms, I know a couple that have to take a second job just to pay for daycare.
I know I am fortunate because I was always able to work my schedules around my family's, so I always had my dad, or somebody able to babysit while I was at work, or in class. And we only have half day kindegarten, so I'm able to pick up my daughter and bring her back to work with me. But I know for many working mothers, that's not an option.

I'd also like to add (if you don't mind Greg ) that at least in the part of the US I live in, most mom's are a bit older. For the most part, they waited till their thirties and even forties to start having children. And yet for some reason, it's looked upon negatively for a woman to have a child before her 30th birthday. I know that for myself, I feel that I need to "prove" myself worthy almost just for my small family to be accepted. It's difficult too; and the comments are always the same... "you're so young," or "I wouldn't dream of having a child while in college," or my personal favorite, "how do you manage without a husband?" *sigh* I think comments like those should be thought, not said because it's a bit degrading. My age and my lack of husband have nothing to do with my parenting ability. I think that should be remembered. (I'm sorry if that was a bit off the topic you intended, Greg, or Louise- just thought I should put it out there )

I personally think that women should do whatever they would like to. I know tons of mothers, like my own, who are "stay-at-home moms." Of course, they do not just say at home. My mother is very active in the school district and the community. Many of my friends' parents work. One of my friend's mothers is a court stenographer and another owns a nail and hair parlor.

Women, just like anybody else, should make the desicion based on their own beliefs, needs, etc. There should not be any pressure on women to work or to stay home (as well as for men). Many of my friends who are girls plan on working when they get older, but some plan on taking care of their family at home. Its a personal choice. Nowadays, unlike the pre-WWII era, women are regarded with as much respect and as highly as anyone else. I have seen acts of discrimination against women, but I have seen just as many against men as well. Perhaps we only notice these things when we are looking ...

Hmm...on the other hand, with your comment, corijp, it is much different where I live. The age that is generally "accepted" by society (which I totally hate, imho) is between 20 and 30. I cannot tell you why, but it is. This is where much of the pressure falls on women: if you are going to have a baby, do it in the "proper" age. Last year, there was a senior in my high school who was pregnant. Everybody would give her looks, and I would feel terribly for her. They have no right to lookn at anybody in such a way. She had the baby over the summer and everything is working out fine. I suppose this type of discrimination has been around of decades and will continue to stay for quite a while.





_daviD

I wonder, where did the notion that women should stay at home while the man goes out and brings home to bacon come from? Unlike many social norms, it seems to be a global phenomenon. I would venture to guess it has something to do with that fact that when people were first settling down in civilizations the only real "work" was manual work, and I don't mean to sound sexist, but men (who are more adpt to perform heavy lifting etc.) probably worked while women stayed home and that norm has just sort of stuck ever since. However, in today's society, work by no means means physical work, so there aren't really any jobs that a man can do that a women is less capible of doing. So to me, the idea that a women shouldn't be able to work seems a bit silly and outdated. But the problem remains, what about the kids?

I know, when I was younger, I loved comming home from grade school and having my mom there. She worked at a job in which she got off at the same time school let out so there was no real conflict there. And when I was in pre K I went to a daycare and I had no problem with that, in fact I thought it was very fun. Is sending a child to a daycare going to emotionally scare them for life? Most likely not, so if a women wants to work I don't think she should feel any remorse about sending her child to a daycare. I know in the U.S many employers, especially in large corperations, have child care facilities in the building which really helps parents (whether they are male or female) out a lot.

I, actually, think it's a bit ironic that many people think women should stay at home and many employers and governments don't accomodate for families in which both parents work, because where I live it is almost as if it is frowned upon to be a stay at home mom. Well not frowned upon, but it's almost as if people think stay at home mom's are taking the easy way out or something to that effect. Now yes, if you are in a wealthy family and have maids to take care of the house then yeah, maybe a stay at home mom is living the easily life, but for the typical stay at home mom, "easy" is the last word I would use to describe the lifestyle.

So, what I was trying (and failing) to say in my post is that women should be able to do what they want, just as men are. Work, in general, doesn't lean more towards one gender than the other as it has in the past, and governments and employeers should accomodate for both lifestyles. The US, I think, does a pretty good job of this.

Hmm..a topic close to my heart Greg. The "why" things are set up that way are from our ancient 'Hunter/Gatherer' days. The men hunted in groups and the women gather fruit and berries and cooked nd cared for children. That is why many ancient civilazations viewed women as holy and worth admiration if not worship.

Back on topic, I remember reading about this in an Anthropology class. It said that the period in time when women were considered to be expected to stay at home and care for children was actually new to the world. From about 1860-1950. They called it the 'Hay-day period of the bread winners". Meaning, the women were the housewives and the men the bread winners. Before this stated time frame, women worked in fields, gardens and labored outside of the home with the children either straped to thier back or with the other children. Something to consider there...

I personally had my daughter at a "young" age. I was 24 when she was born. Some said I was too young. Others, even those in my family, thought I was throwing away my bright future to have a child. I was ruining my chances to "have it all". My husband and I spoke at length about it. Because at that time, I was teaching dance classes. I danced through my pregnancy and then afterwards. I brought my daughter to classes with me and all was well.

But we made the decision to stop doing that for a number of reasons. The first of which was a sentimental one. She was only that little for a short while. We wanted to enjoy her and spen dmore time with her than say, a babysitter. We were willing to give up certain monetary perks with both of us working for that quality time with her. Second, we didn't really trust anyone else to watch her. Flat out, bad people are out there and we were not going to risk it. Period. Next, my husband had a childhood with his mother staying at home all his life. I had a mother who worked all the time. It was a choice we made together for the good of our family.

Now, that doesn't mean I still don't catch some nay-sayers. Some people do give me a rather hard time about not working a full time job. I say, But I do! I clean, d the laundry, cook, shop, plan family events, teach our daughter and most of all provide a home that is warm and loving for all. That is my job and I love it. I do, now, have a part time job on the weekends. It is my "get away" time. I enjoy it, but in all honesty, I love being home more. I feel complete by caring for my husband and daughter and do not feel less than for doing so. I have finished college. But I want to care for my family. Maybe when se gets older, I will work while she is in school? Who knows.

What I do know is that where I am, it is starting to be the trend to stay at home and possibly work from home. I wish I could! But alas, those of us who do stay at home are doing it out of choice. I agree that some people have to. My sister-in-law is a single mother and she has to work full time. But I really think it is accepted by sociaty to stay at home, but there are those "pockets" of people who think we are less than or lazy for staying at home. I say, come to my house and see if I am lazy!

Hurray for stay at home moms. Horray for woking moms. Just love your kids and be happy with you life.

In Australia at the moment, the problem doesn't seem to be so much that Women aren't encouraged to work, more that the resources for them to work and put children into alternative care aren't there.

A lot of parents I know work- I work in an Early Education Centre, which also caters for After School Care and we have A LOT of full-time working parents who are there loooong hours. We are considered a 'first rate' centre- we are the only centre in the state to have straight perfect records in accreditation and that has given us a good reputation.

But in general, most facilities don't have a good reputation. Most of them have the reputation of being 'snot-wipers' etc and that makes things really hard on parents- especially mothers- to be leaving their children in a place that they are not properly cared for. If they had confidence in where their child/ren were, I think it would be a lot easier on them to go back to work.

Of course on the flip side of that, we have a lot of parents who work loooong hours and the children would rather stay with us than go home. When that happens, you know that the mother is working too much- even if that's what they need to do to support their children- and need to spend more time at home with the kids.

Wow, a lot of replies! I'm really happy about that.

Cori, single parents have a hard life in Switzerland. My sister's friend got pregnant when she was still at university, she could only survive and finish uni because she could live with her parents who took care of her daughter. It is also very complicated to go to work for a woman, because of the children's timetables. Some children get home at ten, some at twelve. With more than one child this can be complicated.

What I also want to say is that I personally think it's awful that we women always have to defend ourselves and our decisions. We have to defend ourselves when we have a child at young age, we have to do it when we have a child over 35, we have to defend ourselves when we want to work AND have a child, we have to defend myself when we give our children into daycare and nowadays women even have to defend themselves when the want to be a stay at home mum.
But why? Why are we under such pressure? And what annoys me the most is that (at least for me) in most cases the pressure society puts on us comes from women. The mother of my brother-in-law always asks me why I want to doctorate, it's not the job of a woman.

What I want to ask, and Greg asked it too in his opening post, is if you think that the increasing divorce rates has got something to do with the new role of women. I personally think yes. Again I can only speak for Switzerland but here men are not used to women having success in their jobs. They're not used to having them not at home, the dinner ready and everything is perfect and nice.

I think divorce rates may have a little to do with it, but, in my opinion, not a lot. Men gain custody of the children just as often as women do, and the jobs that are out there for men are the same jobs that are out there for women, so I don't see how divorce rates should affect women more than they affect women. That, however, is just my opinion; I havn't really done much research on the subject so I could be totally wrong on that.

One thing I'm wondering, because it definitely was an issue in my highschool, and sort of ties into the topic, should the government provide and/or assist teenage moms who are still in highschool with free childcare and/or childcare offered in the school? In my highschool, which was about 2,000 students, we had over 30 pregnancies in the school in my Sr. year. The issue was raised as to whether or not a daycare should be put in the school and, as far as I know, they went ahead with the idea. I'm not sure how much the students have to pay to use the facility, but I'm assuming it's free. What do you all think of that? Is it the govt's job to provide for the moms and dads, or should it be their or their parents responsibility?

I do think that the higher divorve rates has got a lot to do with the modern role of women. Let me make an example: I once was in a class with a woman in her forties. She studied politics and met her husband there, she even had the better grades. But when they married after the graduation it was clear that she stayed at home with the children, and she liked doing that. But then they became teenagers and she wanted to study again, so she went back to university. Her husband had such a problem with that that he wanted a divorce. He couldn't handle his wife being away and doing athing on her own.

Now to your question Nimbus: I think it makes sense to have a care center in school when there are so many pregnancies. But I think it's far more important that government pays for educations programms where teenagers learn about protecting themselves, so that they won't get pregnant in the first place. 30 pregnancies out of 2000 students in one year is way too much. They should teach the girls either to say no or to take some responsebility if they want to have sex. The danger with the gov. paying for the young mothers is that then some, and I really only mean some, girls could think 'it doesn't matter if I get pregnant, the gov. will pay anyway.'

For me its very much up to the individual, but i think the fact that some women working at home puts great pressure on employed men. My Mum is a clinical oncologist and is therefore very much a professional woman. She has never been a stay at home Mum for me and i don't mind. However i know so many people who's Mums stay at home, even when they're kids go to boarding school. I really think that's both lazy and pointless (sorry if there is anyone out there offended by that) When your kids are away, and there is nothing to do except shop, eat, meet up with friend etcetera, then go out and do something useful. The other half of the relation ship is working harder, having more pressure as the sole source of income. Also how would it be seen if a man decided he would be a stay at home dad, and that the woman should go out and work. It would be laughed at, and that is society still being unable to acknowledge equality.

Cori, that could be. I can imagine that. I never knew that more women get depressions than men. Was it always like that or is that a study they did now?
I think that comes from the fact that women always want to everything right. And they never put themselves first. I mean how could they, when you give birth to a child, the child is your responsebility and needs you (not that I have a child but my mum taught me that). And now you want to be a good mother and of course also a good wife. Then you also want to be accepted by society, so that's even being a stay-at-home mum, or a career woman, or both. Sometimes you do things that you don't really want, just for society. So that can make you depressed. At least I think so.

But what makes a good wife anyway?

one article I found

another article I found

These are two articles I found that talk about depression in women and men... I think it's interesting.

Olivia, I believe time is one of the biggest struggles moms deal with. Everyone, men and women, parent or not, you need time to yourself. And unfortunately time is a luxury not all of can enjoy.

Hmm.. what does make a good wife? You know, I'm curious to hear what the gentlemen responding to this thread have to say about that one.

I have so much to say on this topic but for now I will just reply to some of what has been written.

Quite simply, the role of women in society should be no different than that of men. Unfortunately, given the physical requirements of childbearing, nursing and so on, and given the fact that there are a lot of preconceived notions about what women (and men) should and shouldn't do, women do have a harder time than men getting to the same level professionally.

My Mum worked, she was a teacher. She stopped working when I was born (in 1968) and went back to work when my youngest brother started kindergarten (1981). I don't know how anyone can ever suggest that saty at home moms don't work; they should try it for a day or to and see how much work it is to take care of kids and do all the housework!

My wife had a great job prior to her getting pregnant with our first child. She stopped working to stay at home with him until he was just about a year old. Luckily, maternity leave in Canada does help a little. She then went to work at a new job (we relocated to a more family friendly area...) and is now on maternity leave with our baby daughter and will return to work in September. We have been very fortunate to find a very nice and loving lady to look after our kids when we are at work, because I don't think we would have been able to leave Simon at a large daycare if we hadn't. Both he and Sarah will go there in the Fall and we couldn't be happier. It provides them with interaction with different people, allows them to meet new friends etc... Their caregiver is like a member of our family, like an Aunt or maybe another Grandma.

In my mind it is society's inability to provide an adequate support structure for families which is the problem. Women traditionally care for children because they bear them and can, if they choose, nurse them. But they shouldn't be forced to do so by societal pressures or by the lack of adequate infrastructure. The choice should be one that every woman can make for herself, with her partner if appropriate, for the best interest of the family unit, and for herself as a part of that family unit. If everyone felt content with their role, whether they stay at home with the kids or go out to work every day, would the world not be a better place?

Women, men, are really not all that different: some want to have kids, some careers, some want both. In an ideal world, we could all be able to choose and live happily ever after.

Simple look at things? Well, I am a simple man...

... yes, in an ideal world. Sadly, we don't live in an ideal world. And it really makes me sad that this decision wether you want to stay in your job or take care of your children, or if you want both, etc. is always (okay, well most of the time) for the woman to do. You could argue that it's the woman's natural role to stay at home, or nowadays to decide if she wants to work and have kids, but still .... why is it rarely for the man to decide?
I mean it's always about the woman has to do this, the woman has to do that.
I don't mean to make the men feel bad here, I really don't, but did anyone ever asked you men if you would stay at home after the maternity leave is over?

Oh...My hubby and I discussed it. He said no way in heck would he do it. Nothing agianst our daughter, but he would not fel "like a man" if he were to stay at home while I went off to work. An issue there methinks...Marc and greg, how would you feel? Less manly? More of a man? I mean, in America now, men are becoming nannies for goodness sake. Are they less manly because they want to nurture? Just wondering.

The reason men don't have to make that choice, I guess, is because very few things can replace a mother. In most societies, even if women are discriminated against, the role of a mother is seldomly underestimated. I know in my culture mothers are very celebrated figures. Not that father's aren't, of course.

Programmed by our DNA, it is in a woman's instinct to want to look after the child she had born for 9 months and given birth to. I've spoken to mothers about this and they all say that giving birth is a very personal experience between the mother and child. There will of course be women who don't feel this way, and I owe them their personal opinion and preferences - it's all good, but in my experience generally, it is instinctive for a mother to want to nurse their child.

I want to have a good job and a family, and I am pretty set on fitting in as much as I can into my life. It is my choice and I am lucky to have the freedom within my society to make that choice. To tell the truth, I feel previleged to be able to have a choice. I see being able to give birth as a gift - it is something beautiful that belongs to being a woman. Raising the child is part of that. Then comes the part where two partners can raise a child together. I wouldn't want to miss out on that! 'Who does what and when?' is something a couple should decide by themselves. The rest of the world should have no say - in an ideal world.

The shift that should happen is that the society must refrain from judging people according to the mean. Each person or couple should have the right to make their own choices without the interference of others.

EDIT>> Oh, Snapelover posted while I was typing I don't think I'd be attracted to a man who chooses to stay at home while I go to work... Can't be sure, but I seriously doubt it.

laudine, how true your words are. I have to agree that in the vast majority of cases that choice to stay home or go back to work is the woman's to make. However, I would submit to you that some men do stay at home to look after the kids nowadays. I know of at least two in my immediate circle of acquaintances and Laurie and I discussed me taking the parental portion of the available leave (total in Quebec, where we live, is 50 weeks. The mother can take 5 weeks or "Maternity", then up to 45 weeks or "Parental" leave, which the father can also take instead of the mother). We discussed it and decided together that she would take a portion of it at a slightly higher rate and go back to work after 30 weeks. This is what made sense for us to do as a family unit. But I don't have to look very far to see the types of situation you describe: my brother would never even consider staying at home with the kids...

I don't think the problem is with gender roles per se. More to do with the lack of infrastructure to support families in general, lack of which impacts women much more significantly than men because of the gender roles assigned to men and women by societal pressures.

Interesting topic, this. Reminds me of my undergraduate years...

Another excellent topic, Greg - props

It's a tough one, this. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you're going to have kids just for the sake of having them, then palm them off to daycare or parents to look after them while you work to try to maintain the lifestyle you had before children, then there's really not much point in having them in the first place. You can't realistically expect to have children and still go on foreign holidays twice a year, own two cars, go out for dinner every night, buy designer clothes, GPS systems for the car and Plasma screen home cinemas. Having kids means compromise.

If, on the other hand, you're working out of necessity to keep a roof over your head, then that's an entirely different thing. My mum worked in a bank before she had us, then she gave it up until my sister was....erm...about 10, I think...then she went back to work. And when she did, I really missed her being at home, but I feel very fortunate that, for the most part of my upbringing, my mum was always there for me. That's what I remember more than anything. Okay, so we had to make do with caravan holidays, but my sister and I never wanted for a single thing and I certainly don't feel any the poorer for it. If anything, I feel far richer.

I feel so sorry for kids whose parents don't work because they have to, but because they choose to. They're missing out on so much. But that's only by my standards - if those kids have never known any different and are perfectly happy, then great. That's the most important thing.

Women should have the freedom to make whatever choice is best for their family, it certainly shouldn't matter what society thinks of them. The trouble is that for men who choose to stay at home, they do tend to be stigmatised to a certain degree, at least in this country, as being lazy or 'less than a man', and that's kind of sad. But men are different to women physically, down at the DNA level, and are programmed completely differently - they don't have the same nurturing and nest-building instincts that women do, and I think that's probably the root of the stigma.

My biggest bug-bear is when the choice is taken away from the individual because of a judgemental society. It's got nothing to do with anyone else the choices we make and it's unfair that anyone, man or woman, should be made to feel bad for doing what they feel is right for their family.

I just think that the basis of that choice to stay at home or work should be one of necessity and not to maintain a lifestyle - that's selfish, IMHO, when kids would be better off having their parent around, and not one who spends all their free time wasting money playing golf and going to the gym, know what I mean?

...yes, Michelle, but what if you want both. And I'm not talking about the lifestyle here, because believe me I can leave without a car. But what if you have such a passion for your job, but you also want children, do you really have to decide? I mean can't you just organise to have both? My professor's assistant just had a baby and she won't stop working, she will never work as much of course. But what if you're passionate? Do you have to give it up just because you're a woman?

Oh no, but at the end of the day, wanting both is very different from needing them both. I'm afraid that I still don't see much point in a woman who works full time having children because she wants them when she's never going to be there to see them or take care of them. Children aren't commodities - they're real people who depend on the adults caring for them for everything. They don't ask to be born and when they are here, they deserve all the love, care and attention that we can give them.

I think this is the crucial thing - when a woman sets out on a career path, she makes a decision. That decision is that she wants to be successful and she wants a lifestyle that reflects everything she has done to work so hard to get there. If you study to become a doctor, or a lawyer, or a professor or any other time-intensive profession, then you must reasonably expect to spend a large amount of your time in your job. I know this is going to rub a lot of people up the wrong way, and this is merely my opinion and I don't mean to offend anyone, but to embark on a career that you know is unlikely to be conducive to having children - and then decide to have children later only to palm them off onto someone is else - is a brand of the worst kind of selfishness there is. Children, as I've said, don't ask to be born. We bring them into this world, they are our responsibility and it is our responsibility to take care of them. It's not reasonable to expect your parents to look after them - or put them into childcare, to be honest. I mean, that's expensive - you'll end up working just to keep them in daycare, which is rather counter productive.

If you decide to have children, you should be committed to them 110% - unless circumstances are such that you absolutely have to work to keep a roof over their heads - which is the situation in Britain these days with the cost of living spiralling ridiculously every day.

Sorry if I've stepped on any toes...I don't mean to, honestly. It's just the way I see things, opinions born from experience

I shall throw my two penneth into the melting pot

I agree with most of the remarks allredy made. I think the role of women in society is no less than that of a man. Its a very old fashioned view that women should obey the man, and the men should work while the women look after the house and raise the children. Thats the way it works out more often than not though. Its true that while women should have every right to a career and motherhood, they do develop a bond with their child, after 9 months incubation and then giving birth to their child, its perfectly natural for them to want to stay with their child, and after giving birth its fair to say their priorities would probably change.

That said, much of it is up to the individual, its down to them to decide what they want. There are people who just want a career, those who want to be a mother, and those who want both, and there isnt a reason why people should live their lives the way they want to, it just takes more work for whichever one everyone chooses. That is their choice, and for no-one to judge someone for.

Yes, children don't ask to be born and I think that you really have to think about it wether you want children or not before you have them.
However, I do think that women can have a profession and love their children just the same as women who stay at home. And I don't think that every women who wants a career wants a certain lifestyle. I for example want to continue working as a historian after I have children because I love my profession, I have a true passion for it and I couldn't imagine life without it.
I also think that you can give the children the same love. Yes, you do have to spend a lot of time working. But I am convinced that every woman who works puts her children first. She's not just being selfish.

Society should leave the decision to every woman and man . They should decide. Sadly, this won't happen. Maybe in 20 years, who knows. I hope my daughters, if I will have some, won't have to deal with this problem anymore.

Just a few quick notes. Weekends are so hard for me to find free time.

Louise I wish I could take credit for this great topic but it was primarily Olivia's idea. I was just smart enough to finally listen to her and start the thread.

To touch on something Louise posted. I too grew up with a stay at home Mom and I could not imagine anything better. She was there to see us off to school each day and was waiting for us when we got home. She was at the school voluntering. I treasure those times we had together.

There is no reason why that role can not be taken by the man or woman. My family has the traditional but it is because I was wa sthe one who went to college. When we married at a very young age, my wife did not know what she wanted to do and I did. The choice was very easy to make. Now she is going back to college part time to get ready for the day when all the kids are in school and she can work some. If she was the one who could earn the most money, I think I would be ok staying at home but I am not certain.

While I'm sure it's ideal for a mom to be able to stay home until the children at least begin school, it's not always possible. With today's economics, many families struggle with two working parents. But, in the case of a woman who loves her profession, I really don't see any negative stigma surrounding her. Yes, she is going to have to depend on her skills of multi-tasking, and she's going to have to make some compromises (turn down an offer for a partnership, promotions, etc...) but there are good companies that will work with our moms. Not all companies, but some. As I've mentioned before, I'm a single mom and I have to provide a roof over my daughter's head, clothes on her back and food on the table, but the people I work for allow me to work a very flexible schedule and I've never been frowned upon for bringing my child back to work with me, or for calling it an early day if possible.
I also feel that when our children can see our parents passionate about something (be it their career, hobby, etc...) they can become inspired and hopefully acheive greatness/happiness of their own.

On a more personal note, even if I were married and my husband was the bread winner, I would want to work. I have a job that has allowed me to be a part of amazing children and young adults. I've had the privelage to watch them concur many hurdles set by societies standards, and how could I give that up? Not to mention the positive affect it has had on my child, who understands that people are made differently and that's something that will stick with her for her lifetime.

As a high school student who has not yet even decided on her first semester courses never mind a career, I probably bring a less well-informed opinion to the discussion than most – in terms of both the physical and the emotional demands of parenting and working professionally – and for this reason, I hope no-one minds my skirting around the “working mother” issue. I appreciate what many of you have had to say about the disruption of family life caused by two working parents, but at the same time, find me the student who is not attracted to the idea of having a career and associated financial independence. I expect my perspective will become more developed over time.

As a student, the thing that interests (and disturbs) me more is the extent to which I see the girls in my class already beginning to play into traditional “female roles” on their own accord – in a progressive setting and a completely non-sexist educational environment.

I tend to consider myself a science girl, and if I had to choose my career right this very minute, I would gravitate towards physics or chemistry. What gets me, though, is how few women appear to end up leading research fields, particularly so far as mathematics and the quantitative sciences are concerned – and how little interest there seems to be in pursuing this path among female adolescents and young adults. It’s an observation I’ve made on so many levels since I began developing an interest in science over the past few years – at the college I’ll be attending this September (which I love very much), only 15% of current physics majors are female. Twenty-two percent of current AP Physics students at my high school are girls, and less than 10% in AP Chemistry (I’m proud to count myself among that group). There are no rules, per se, that women are not allowed to do math and science, although one might argue – validly – that there still is a certain amount of gender discrimination in the workplace. But I can tell you definitively that there is no-one in my high school preventing girls from taking AP Physics. So why don’t they?

Another example that bugs the heck out of me – cheerleading. I’ve been to a grand total of an hour and fifteen minutes of Homecoming football games in four years, and cheerleading is the reason. Watching intelligent, athletic girls who are more than capable of competing in their own sports cheer on the guys from the sidelines bothers me to no end, and for the life of me, I can’t understand why it has survived to the twenty-first century. Both males and females in my class will argue that cheerleading is “customary.” Nice try, but in my opinion, there was a time when male-restricted suffrage was “customary,” as well. I find it anachronistic, and to make matters worse, every year, the captains of my high school’s football and cheerleading teams go to the local elementary school to “bring school spirit” to the lower grades. It makes for a fine way to teach five- and six-year-olds about gender equality, doesn’t it?

This phenomenon has befuddled me for years, and I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter, as a group of adults. I’ve mainly discussed this issue with other kids my age, and I feel that you all would have a very different perspective. I also hope that I have not offended anyone in this post – I spent over an hour writing it because I was so nervous about insulting someone, and if I said something that will make me want to put my foot in my mouth, please understand that I did not intend to be confrontational.

I wonder if it isn't rather a rythm you have to find for yourself. It sounds as if you can't fit in both lives, but it can work if you have the right approach. (Assuming that society works in your favour, which is another thing altogether).

I take my own mum and dad as an example - I think they're as close to a superpeople as you can get. I have had all the opportunities I could ever wish for and they both lead very satisfying academic careers. They've been there for hockey games and violin lessons and homework and everything else.

The key, I think, is the fact that they in effect split the job 50/50. A lamish way to put it, but my imagination is a bit shrivelled at the moment. I could honestly not say which one of them had spent more of their time on my brothers and I.

But ok, seeing as this is about women, I know that my mum would never have been happy if she hadn't given as much time as she did to her work. She couldn't live without doing research and I completely understand. She could be seen by outsiders as a 'bad' mother, because she attends conferences like mad these days, but in the end, she can be the only judge and I can testify to the fact that I have not suffered one inch from her living her dream. On the contrary, I now know how to set to work to do it myself.

Marriane says something pretty cool in Sense and Sensibility (the movie, can't remember if it's in the book too): 'Time alone does not determine intimacy.' That's exactly what I feel is the idea. Not that you can get away with not spending enough time, but if it isn't (another lame phrase ->) 'quality time', what's the point?

The right attitude, although not the only thing you have to get right, is something that will definitely put you on the right track. If you follow your nose well enough, you could very well succeed.

As for society's say in people's private affairs - inexcusable. You have to stand in someone else's shoes and walk around in them a bit (thanks Atticus) before you have any sort of right to pass a judgement.

Allie, cheerleading: I have to say I feel the same but I don't know if I can really judge it as cheerleading is just about to get popular in Switzerland. My mum used to say that if a daughter of hers were to become a cheerleader then she did something wrong while raising them. I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this. I was raised to believe that women are equal to men. And that they shouldn't cheer men on while they could do sports themselves. So Allie I agree with you. But I think like beauty contests cheerleading will always be there.

Capricorn, how true your words are. Your family shows that it could work. And that women can raise their children and be around for them and work and be passionate in their jobs. It takes a great deal of compromises, especially with the husbands. But I do think that many men won't mind having the same part in raising the children like the women do. Maybe they're even happy about it. The fathers are also important.

Allie has brought up a very good issue. Why do women not choose the more technical & scientific professions. I believe it was the Harvard president last summer that got drawn and quartered for just asking the question of it whether it was a fundamental biological difference.

I do not see alot of barriers for women in the technical fields anymore. Decades ago they were considered all male fields and women were discouraged from entering. Today women are encouraged to enter by schools and colleges but very few do.

As Allie pointed out there are no barriers in high school or college. When I was getting my mechanical engineering degree we had two women in the entire department out of about 100 students. Let me tell you, two women and 98 men, they got alot of positive attention but that is off topic. The women at the University just seemed to have little interest in the engineering and science fields.

One thing that women do in schools is gravitate heavily towards teaching professions. Does this go back to women's tendency to be the nurturer? Teaching children would go along with their traditional role of child rearing. Engineering and sciences are very cold professions and maybe a natural instinct to be the nurturer drives women from these professions. I don't know women what do you think?

Hmmm, interesting question. I'm studying Computer Engineering at the University of Pretoria. It has the largest engineering faculty in South Africa and we are only two girls in our whole year. Even in the other engineering disciplines where there are more girls, guys are by far the majority.

That said, I can't wait to be a mother. I'm an older sister and I am very protective of my two brothers. I really want to be a mum for my kids one day. I'm really a lollipop when it comes to such things - a hopeless romantic. I love the idea of chivalry. Damsel in distress, knight on a white horse type of thing. I know it's just a fancy, but while I'm for equal rights, I'm not blindly for equal roles. I spoke about my family earlier - my mother is still a mum, and my dad a dad. In that sense their roles aren't exactly the same.

Genetically there is a difference between men and women, so naturally there will be a tendency to choose jobs that are either more feminine or masculine, but there are obviously exceptions. I guess I am one in that sense (like all those who have chosen more technical fields), though it doesn't necessarily equate to not wanting a family. Like it's been said a lot before - it's up to the individual.

Woman in Engineering? You'll all be pleased to know that my dear mother is a stuctual engineer She's built (well over saw the building) of a few of the buildings in Aberdeen (where I live) the cinema a couple of pubs etc..

She no longer does the 'practical' side, but did a PhD and is now a researcher at the university and is an acidemic. There are virtually no woman in that feild still, my dad teaches at the same unversity and in one year out of 150 200 students there are only 4 girls... it just isn't a popular subject with girls.

In the accedemic side of things there are still hardly any female Professors, it's still realy hard for woman to get a job like that.

I haven't posted here (haven't had the time) so i'm going to thow my 5 cents in. I think that woman shoud have completely equal rights to men, and their role in society should be the same, niether should be favoured above the other. However this may sound on paper alas it will never be completely done.

It's a sad thought that even though in the UK the equal pay act was intoduced in 1972 woman still get paid less than a man, and still have less chance of getting a job than a man in the same feild.

More woman are choosing not to be stay at home mums and some are choosing to abonden a family altogether. This however raises it's own problem, in the UK at least we have an aging population, meaning that there aren't enough children being born, as lots of woman realsie they can't have a career and a family, while a man can? I don't think that that fair.

I personally think that childcare should be provided by the government, so every woman with children can also have a career and a job (if they want one. I have nothing against voluntary stay at home mums like you Mel ) However the issue with Maternity (sp) leave comes in as well. It's dangerous for a woman to work while she is heavily pregnant, and bad for the mother child bond (which is very important) for the woman to rueturn to work as soon as she has recovered from the birth.

I'm not too sure how long maternity leave is in the UK, but after the leave has ended and the woman wants to return to work she may not find the job open to her. I'm pretty sure in the UK it's the law or at least common practise, to keep the job open for her. But many woman find them selves fired. This is an increasing problem in th UK and so more and more woman again aren't having children out of that fear.

My mum gave up having a career for having children, even though she still works she doesn't have nearly as good a job as she used to, because she's a woman and had children even though at a late-ish age for 20 years ago, she was 30 before she had my brother (22.) even though she's glad that she had a family and wouldn't change it for the world she's consious of the fact that she could been earning as much as my father (he earns lots ) if she'd chosen not to have us. My dad had a family and a career why couldn't my mum?

And This is coming from a woman who worked from home until me and my brother were of school age and then went back to the office and we were in childcare from 5 to 11 years old after school. So even with child care and home working it's still hard for a woman to get a career and have children, although it is a little bit easier, but this was 20 years ago. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that many woman are giving up having children to have a career, but i don't think it should be an either or decision.

Capricorn, your parents sound like great people. It's great that both your parents were able to work, i admit that i had to really bully my dad to get to go to my school plays. BUt then again, my dad got s hopeless memory, but i think he did go to a couple. Then again. I didn't really do school plays etc that much

A study was done... oakely i think... i don't remember sorry, that men and woman are begining to share a lot more on the house chores, which is a good sign. My dad does all the cooking all the washing and ironing, my mum tidys up the house. However, i still think that woman are oppressed in the work place and some are pressured to be the typical doting housewife when they don't want to be. Like i said i don't have anything against people who choose to be stay at home mums, i just don't think that woman should have to be if they don't want to. that goes to stay at home dads too.

I know i think i'm rambeled a bit, and i think i've kinda strayed from the topic... oops. Oh well... sorry!

Oh yay I can finally post!

fjkrs. In the UK a Professor in a University is a really rather high up job. In the accedemic world, it's 'Mr' 'Dr' then 'Prof' so yeah, it's the highest i think you can get So most of the time, to be a Prof, you have to be quite old. My dad became one at 41 and that was record breakingly young! I think he was the youngest in about 100 years in engineering in aberdeen uni (which is 500 years old), don't quote me on that, It might be wrong

Any who. So the people who'd do the job interviews are Stereotypically old men who wetn to posh public schools (fee paying schools, called public shools over here.) And have very conservative views about it, and therefore don't emply women.

Of course there are some exceptions, it's just stereotypically

Oh I see though, sounds like a tough job for anyone to get. Thanks for clarifying.

And Allie brings up a really good point about cheerleading. (I missed those posts !_!)
I think it's rather silly a bunch of girls cheering on boys and hopping around in skirts. But a lot of girls take if very seriously, they consider it a very competitive sport of their own, perhaps they never saw it in the way you did. But since you talked about it I wonder why it's only girls (for the most part) if it is so competitive why only girls, and at my school the cheerleaders don't cheer for the girl's basketball team, nor even the tennis team which consits of both boys and girls.

(I hate my internet conection! I was finishing my post and then the internet go crazy and all my writing dessapear! )

What an awesome topic!

In my country exists (I am Colombian) a mixture of those problems. Because here, the families are completely matriarchal whereas society is absurdly patriarchal. I mean to say that inside the families the main role is for women meanwhile in society the main protagonism is for men. The expectations for each one are pretty different and constitute a kind of stereotype unconsciously transmitted.

In my country many women work because they are the family head. Some because they are single moms others because they have a husband no more (for the violence or because he left). And here it comes what upset me to no end. Inside many families the day to day life is that girls are raised to serve men.Could you believe it? Keep in mind that many of these families move foward thanks to a woman labor. Usually the girls make the house tasks of their brothers, you know: clean and do the laundry for them… my mother have tried it with me and I was outrage because is not my obligation to do what is their responsibility.

As an anecdotal point (and because it happens a lot where I live):
Each if my parents come from a different environment. My mother started to work when she was around 16 years old but my father grew up in a very traditional family with a stay-at-home mom. They got married and since my mother earned a good amount of money, she used to buy whatever she wanted for the house. But my dad went mad every time she did so.
Finally, when my two older brothers start primary school my father convinced her to quit the job and to stay at home. We had a nanny and an employee in charge of house cleaning, so my mother had almost nothing to do and she felt frustrated but she did not want to contradict my dad.
I was 11 when my parents divorced (it was a good amount of years after my mom stopped working) and the condition from my dad for send us money was that mom must remain at home. If she not, he was going to send only the amount for my school and the costs of my brothers colleges. And my mom should be in charge of the rest of maintenance expenses.
My mother decided to stay at home. I still had a nanny but we can not afford anymore the cleaning employee. And my other hates house cleaning. So you could figure it out how she was feeling.


I learned from it that maybe you can sacrifice your dream for a common dream, but never give up what you want for you in favor of something that is only for the other person. If it is a couple everything has to be divided between both in aim of a balance.



Yeah you are complete right there. It is lame but is still true. My mom stay at home but she never gets to know us. And which is more paradoxical is that my brothers have a better relation with my dad than with my mom. I do not talk too much with either. My nanny was in charge of everything about me.

What I see in my college and in general through my contact with many professional women from my country, it is a good quantity of women who study but do not work, because their husbands and some of themselves believe that is better if they stay at home. Frankly I think that is fine if is really what you want as a woman. If is not, if you make that decision because others think it is better, your kids are not going to notice the different because even if you stay at home you are not going to create a real bond with them, which means that you are not there because in fact you are more absent as if you were working. And that is simply too sad.

I do not know how in these years women still can be question about maternity. Give birth to a child is an option. If as woman you do not want or you can not have a child you are not less woman because of it. Even more if a woman want to be only an academic or professional individual that is ok if it is what makes you happy.
Believe me I grow up with two brothers who bother me insatiably with things like:
Why do you read so much? You are just a girl you know? Or, do you really understand what you are doing with those numbers? Why don’t you do exercise instead and get pretty, because if you do not you are never going to Find a husband.
A lot of time ago women have showed to the world that we are capable of doing incredible things for our own means. Yes, women who are staying at home for nurturing do great things too. But we need to make such decisions by heart and mind. Nobody can decide for us because we are as free as men are, maybe not in real practice but in theory and if we do not defend our rights nobody is going to do it for us.
We have to break molds. I’m an artist who loves maths. So I believe in women who know what they want. If you want a family and a successful career then fight for it! It is not going to be easy because you have to be very organized but if you really want it you can have it (too romantic?).
I think we and not men have to make these decisions because women from previous generations help to maintain the stigmas. Even in these times women keep question and judging other women about their decisions, placing labels to those women who do not act of the way in which they believe that a woman must behave.

In conclusion moms who worked are as great as moms who stay at home if they really love and take care of their kids and feel happy about their life.

What a nice post you wrote here Bendis (or Diana I think). I really liked all the things you said and you are so right.
Now what I've quoted here is that you said that it is mostly women who judge women. Now why do we do that? I mean we should stand together and believe in our gender. Instead we judge eachother and make the others, who don't live like us, look bad.
If a woman wants to stay at home and loves doing that she should stay at home, if a woman wants to work and have a career she should do that too, and finally if a woman wants to work AND have children, she should be allowed to. Now 'allowed' is also a bad word. Who is the one who allows a woman to do both?

Just some new thoughts here ...

As I am a bit of an idealist, at times, I'll take this one step further: In a perfect world, bot men and women would be free to choose the roles that they feel most comfortable with, without fear of judgement from anyone for their choices.

Having said that, I don't think that's likely to happen anytime soon. And the assertion made earlier that women are the harshest critics of other women, while correct, is also true of men judging other men. At the root of such criticism, however, is the deep-seated societal archetypes of each gender, as created by whichever society one happens to be in.

Of course, biological differences between genders are fact. But these do not warrant the imposition of set roles to either genders. Once the biological requirements of bringing a child into the world are completed, a woman, if she is ready to do so mentally, emotionally and physically, should be able to pursue whichever role she chooses without fearing the judgement of her peers. Baby formulas are now so advanced (although expensive, adding another hurdle to the equation...) that they are virtually undistinguishable from breastmilk. So, it is very conjceivable that a father may choose to stay at home with his child while the mother returns to her career, if that is what they as equals choose as the best path for their family unit. I've known several such couples and their kids are perfectly balanced, happy and socially adept young people. But boy did they get an earful from their peers!

PLease forgive my straying off topic. Let me close by saying that from what I have seen, women do tend to be very critical of other women, especially where reproductive vs career issues are concerned. I would be very nice if these behaviours could come to be a thing of the past, allowing all to choose roles that they find fulfilling and rewarding, regardless of gender.

This is really problematic, because I feel this is something very common in our society. Not just between women but about a lot of subjects. People tend to try to demonstrate that other activities or decisions are wrong when they want to prove what they do is right. We are used to affirm ourselves (in any aspect of our humanity) by the denial of the other. For the good of our self esteem we think it is fine to condemn others actions as mistakes, just in a few circumstances we are conscious there exists more than one possibility to do things right.

Uhmm… Allow seems to be a very complicated word. But we have to be aware that our freedom is relative. As part of a society we agree to place a part of our individuality for common goals, the thing is we have to remain with a major part of it because all the same to be able to practice our rights as individuals is what structure community life.



Yes, very true. At the beginning such roles were propose as a guide to make a group more productive or accurate in the search of the commons goals, you know a model that you can decide to follow or not. But societies at some point forget it was an option and it was so remarked on people’s minds that they started to control their peers. To impose them the roles once were just a possibility.

What you said about men is very complicated too because that contribute to keep stigmas over women. It is funny, because what people says is: “Nonono, you as a man can not stay at home. Home labor is for women” or “a real man do not let his wife to maintain him”. Those expressions are comparative and simultaneously they degrade the roll of the opposite sex as part of a vicious circle. They help to keep women and men under control.

I was rereading some of the past messages.
I agree perfectly with the idea that men and women should be free to choose their roles about family and life in general. But...about breastfeeding, for example, there's no need of refusing the act of nurturing your child. You can easily pump your milk and give it with bottles, and someone else can give it to the baby, providing the essential touch and contact, eye-to-eye and skin-to-skin that is officially recognized by science as part of the growing process.
I'd say, provokingly, why lose time in making a baby when you can have one already made?
I mean, at least the first year of the baby requires special attention and special care, and the moment you make the choice to have a baby, you must be well aware of all the commitment needed to take care of him/her.
This, both as mothers and fathers.

As a woman, I can't see nothing wrong in taking some time to care about our babies. I'm not a freak of child caring, although I'm a proud mom, but I don't have always the time to bake cookies and do "special" things with my girls...sometimes it's just help them with homework, play with them half an hour, and let them help me in home chores, like folding laundry or tidying their room. Sometimes I have time to go out with them, sometimes not. Luckily there are other people with whom I can share the lovely duties...my parents, my husband, my friends.

What has really changed today, is the social net of relationships and mutual help. Women are awfully alone. Families live far from one another. It lacks that mutual support that made people stronger and less stressed. Do you remember loving neighbours, grannies, young cousins, nieces and so on? they all helped mothers with children, offering their help in the kitchen...chatting around a table while peeling potatoes.
You know, living in the South of Italy I can still see these scenes, I could say I've lived them in my grandmother's house, or even in mine...that's why my parents and I have decided (along with my husband) to live in the same building. We feel better living close to each other; we cook in turn, we take care of my kids together, I'm far less stressed than before, when we lived more far.

So, maybe the social structure could do miracles simply adapting to the people's needs, instead of the contrary...
Sorry, friends, sparse thoughts. Hope I've been clear enough.