I'm not sure if people already made a topic about this but:

dont you find it kinda odd that the james and lily didnt trust lupin to be their secret-keeper? (that's the name right?)

i mean, yeah lupin was a werewolf once a month, and a bit quiet, but this is lupin we are talking about! he's polite, intelligent, nice...

i dont know. i just find it seriously weird that they didnt trust him.

what do you guys think?

Now that you've mentioned it -- why didn't they? I mean he was just as much a friend to them as Wormtail was (WAIT, HE WASN'T THEIR FRIEND) .. OK.. correction: He was their TRUE friend unlike that filthy, disgusting, betraying, liar Wormtail.. now it's stumping me why they didn't choose him.. I'll have to think about this one.. I'll edit later or something.

Ps. It is called 'secret-keeper' .. I think.. I'm not so sure either! Heh.

Well, we haven't made a topic about this specifically, but we have kind of dedicated a whole club to our beloved in the Lounge forum! But it's okay...**sniff**....we're not offended.....(much.... )

Okay, this is probably gonna be a bit controversial, and remember that this is coming from someone who would quite cheerfully jump in front of Lupin if anyone ever sent an AK his way....but I think that there is only one possible explanation for why James, Lily and Sirius may have suspected him.

James and Sirius were very close, as were Lily and James, so you have to imagine a kind of triad within the Marauders. That isolated Pettigrew and Lupin, in a way. James would never have suspected Sirius, and Sirius (well, duh) would have known that James would never put himself and Lily in danger, so Sirius knew that James could be trusted. They probably thought Pettigrew was too much of a weed to have the guts to go face Voldemort to give them away - they would never have thought him capable of it. Which leaves the only other other logical choice - Lupin.

Add just a slight touch of prejudice over his werewolfishness, and the fact that werewolves are dark creatures, and maybe that was enough to tip the scales. I don't think that any of them would ever have openly been prejudiced against him, but just remember that they were supposedly very dark times where friends turned on each other - there was no other logical person to suspect.

James ultimately chose Pettigrew as their secret keeper precisely because he was so cowardly - they believed he would be the last person Voldermort would ever have gone to.

Do we know that Lily didn't trust Lupin?

We know that James and Sirius, or at least Sirius didn't... I made a post about this somewhere, but yeah, it was in response to another post on some other topic... haven't seen one dedicated to this before.

Actually, it might have been my topic now that I think about it lol.

The question I think that was asked, was not why didn't Sirius trust Lupin... but when exactly this quote from the film version of PoA was talking about:

so sorry to those who are in the club dedicated to lupin. i'm not quite familiar to that section, and i haven't been into that topic, so i wouldn't know. sorry once again

anyway, back to the topic. hmm good points. i haven't thought about peter being all cowardly to join voldemort...it seems to stick out and now i feel stupid for not taking that into consideration lol. but he still had an inferiority complex so...eh. never mind

but doesnt it seem kinda silly to not trust a person because your friend likes the same person you do? he's a friend...and a real one too, so you wouldnt have to worry about him stealing her away from you when you guys are going out, or married in this case. but it was during dark times...argh sorry. it feels like there are two sides of me fighting with each other, so i dont know what to think anymore lol.

but yes. i rather like the idea that james and sirius never distrusted lupin in the first place...because they just never thought wormtail would turn on them. but still, it's kinda offending not to give that responsibility to him. hmmm....

thanks for the replies! i'm less confused

One thing I think you might have overlooked of why they didn't choose Lupin.

They knew someone close to the Order/the Potters was leaking out information (I don't have the canon, but if I find it, I'll post it). Easily, Wormtail would be the last person to assume who be doing such a thing. You have to understand that in those days you didn't know who to trust, everyone was showered in fear. As Arthur (or someone like that) said in OotP, people would come home from work to see their families dead, it was dark times.

I think the better question is, Why wasn't Dumbledore used as the secret keeper? Was there a shadow of doubt that he was double crossing them back then? I don't know, maybe he, as well as Sirius were too much as an obvious choice. Lily and James might have not choosen him for his protection or something... Or they thought he did enough for them as it was and didn't want to bother him any further since they thought they had Peter to rely on.

Sirius and Lupin were both strong people who could have been the ones who were leaking information. I don't think it was a really personal thing to Lupin. Peter would be the last guess of anyone back then. He was looked at as weak and spineless (which is what he IS, so they weren't wrong). They just didn't see him going to the Dark Lord because he thought he'd be more powerful and come out on top at the end.

I don't think they used DD because he was already Secret Keeper for the Order, so maybe you can only hold one secret at a time or something. I'm sure that there was a legitimate reason for it though. Yes, Sirius was far too obvious a choice, that was stated in PoA, (I think) - LV knew that they were best friends and he would have gone after Sirius first. Of course, Sirius should still have been used, IMO. LV is not stupid...there could have been some reverse psychology in play - Sirius was the most logical choice, so James and Lily would never have used him...hence the last person you would think they would have used was Pettigrew. Now, if LV was clever, he would have realised that would be the Potters' logic and would therefore never have suspected that they would be stupid enough to use Sirius...making him the best possible choice for the Secret Keeper, do you know what I mean?

I don't think that the 'suspect everyone' thing would really have applied much to the Marauders back then...they were far too close, particularly James and Sirius. I really do feel that the others did slightly exclude Lupin (and Peter, to an extent) though, albeit subconciously...firstly, they used him to set Snape up and then they actually suspected him of betraying them....surely they should have suspected Peter first, being the weakest of their number? But no, they didn't...they suspected the werewolf, the known dark creature....that must really have hurt Lupin.....

If my best friends treated me the way that Lupin's been treated, I probably would have stopped bothering with them years ago....

Yeah, you know, you're right!! I've just read over that myself and I did make it sound as though Lupin would have been the best choice for Secret Keeper, didn't I?! Lol... Hey ho....

But that still makes sense, I guess...Lupin would have been the best choice for Secret Keeper, but they were suspicious of him, probably because yeah, he was the quiet one...plus the only dark creature in their group.

As for being able to only hold one secret at a time...I don't know....that was just an idea for a possible explanation as to why the Potter's never chose DD to be Secret Keeper.....

Anyway, I think I'll join you in being **frustrated as heck**!!!

Hurry up and write the bloomin book already, JK!!!!! You're killing us, woman!!!!!

As much as I hate to say it, maybe Sirius was the one to sway James into thinking it was Lupin. He was brought up in a Dark Wizarding family, and even though he opposed them, maybe some of their blathering stuck. Since no one had any real proof of anything, Sirius may revert back to what he was taught as a young child. Don't you learn the most in the first two years of life, or something like that?

In fact, why didn't James just become his own secret keeper. Dumbledore is the Order's and he's a part of that group. So can't you guard the secret of your own group?

that might be true, about sirius using what he learned when he was a kid. although...you know he's the one to rebel to their ideas of what was right, and who to believe. i mean, sirius did end up having friends; and saying that he would rather die than betray them.

but then he still believed that lupin was the traitor...argh.

*still frustrated* haha sorry. but this is confuses me so much.

i still don't get why they even need a secret keeper! i mean, wouldn't it been better for them if they didnt tell ANYONE in the first place?? and that would incorporate into LupariusMurilegus' idea! lol

Well I think the idea behind the Fidelius charm is that when it is performed, it kind of hides the people concerned magically, so that even if Voldemort walked past their house and looked in the front window, he still wouldn't be able to see them. For the charm to work properly, the Fidelius charm needs a 'Secret Keeper' - someone to perform the enchantment over the people who have the secret. That way, by sealing up the charm in one person, it means that only if that Secret Keeper chooses to divulge the secret, will the secret ever be known to anyone else. Like, DD is the 'Secret Keeper' for the Order, only he can tell someone where the HQ of the Order is. If anyone else does, like, say, Kinglsley, for example, the person Kinglsey tells won't be able to find Grimmauld Place because the Fidelius charm that hides it will be contained within DD - that person would just see numbers 11 and then 13, no 12 in between. They won't be able to see the house because DD himself didn't give them that information, do you know what I mean?

Same thing for the Potters' By making Pettigrew their secret keeper, they thought that they were sealing themselves away magically (much better than just hiding, 'cos then LV would have been able to find them easily) but unfortunately, they made a bad judgement call and Pettigrew betrayed them - he told LV where they were hiding, the Fidelius charm was broken, so LV could find them.

All that being said, however, still leaves us in the dark as to why the Potter's chose Pettigrew over Lupin. But I do agree with you guys that it might have something to do with deeply ingrained prejudices against Dark creatures that would have been almost a part of James and Sirius' make up. Not that either of them would ever have openly acknowledged that prejudice, even to themselves though. I don't think that Sirius' upbringing would have had much to do with it, to be honest - if anything, I would have thought that Dark wizards would be supportive of Dark creatures....but anyway, at Hogwarts, they're taught DADA and have to write essays and stuff about werewolves - so they are taught that werewolves are bad. It's that learned prejudice maybe, however deeply set within their psyche, even though they probably wouldn't even have acknowledged that it was there themselves, that led them to distrust Lupin.

All this would explain why Sirius said he would die for his friends - yes, he would have. I'm sure that neither James or Sirius wanted to distrust their friend, and they would have given their lives for him if he'd been threatened, but there is something bigger than friendship at stake here - James had a wife and a son. Any man, no matter how noble he thinks he is, will always put his family above his friends...James would not have taken that risk with his own family and he would have chosen the only person in whom he had the greatest, utmost faith...Sirius. It was Sirius though who changed his mind....Sirius who convinced him to choose Pettigrew.

Again, though, unfortunately, a bad judgement call. And boy did that poor guy ever pay for it.

I think Dana got the Fidelius Charm exactly right, I haven't read a better description of it than that. I have to wonder though, if Pettigew was the secret keeper and he told LV the whereabouts of the Potters, how was it that Sirius found the house on the night the Potters were killed? And stranger yet, how did Hagrid?

Ha! You know that's a brilliant observation!! OMG, I never thought about that before!! Wow....yeah...that makes no sense whatsoever, does it? Lordy....how come I missed that one?!

How on earth did Sirius and Hagrid find the house? It was Harry's home, wasn't it? Doesn't it say that somewhere? It's not like some place his parent's were renting, was it?

Unless, once they were killed, the charm was broken....

But even so, still, no one would have been able to find them.....no one was supposed to know where they were hiding, not even DD. That's how the Fidelius charm works....

Ooh....by the pricking of my thumbs.....there be something sinister afoot here.....I'm not sure what, but there's something a bit strange about that, isn't it?

Maybe JKR made a mistake or something? **shrugs** Either that, or there's more going on here.....Sirius knew Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper, didn't he? Lupin didn't...so he couldn't have been involved....I don't really know where I'm going with this....random thoughts, really....but still....mmm....what do you think?

That is a really good question? Do you think JK would make a mistake like that or do you think it is part of her plan for the upcoming books?

I doubt it was a mistake, this is all planned way to well for a mistake like that. I don't think that JKR would make any mistakes really regarding the night the Potters were killed, she'd have tons of info on the Fidelius Charm wouldn't she? I mean, she's used it more than once..

Another question that struck me about that night was in her wording for something in the first book.... it said that Voldemort ran or fled from the Potters house... but erm, he was almost dead. He didn't even have a body of his own in Philosophers Stone... he had to parasite himself onto someone else... how could he have ran??

Seems to me that someone else had to be there that night, so the question really is for me then, who??

I'm going from memory here, not a reference -- When they described the Fidelis charm (in POA, I believe?) someone stated that the Potters needed to hide in a hurry. So they chose the convenient person that they trusted to become the Secret Keeper; not the most trustworthy person. Pettigrew happened to be convenient.

I wonder what happens to the secret if the secret keeper dies -- I guess no one can ever discover it again.

I think that the reson James choose Serius insted of Lupin is because of the fact that they were BEST friends.
-But I wonder if they new eachother before they went to school?
-Is Lupin yonger than James and Serius?
-Is Peter the same age?
Just a few questions. I don't know if they are really of importance or not but I thought that I would throw them out there anyways.

Yeah, they were best friends, but that wouldn't necessarily have made him the best choice for the secret keeper. I think the question of importance here isn't really 'Why did James choose Sirius', but rather 'Why didn't James choose Lupin?' (after Sirius refused to be the Secret Keeper for safety reasons....know what I mean? )

I might be wrong here, but from what I remember, Lupin certainly didn't know the others before school because I think his parents were pretty protective towards him, weren't they? He didn't have any friends before going to Hogwarts. As for the others, I'm not sure.

But no, they're all the same age because they were all in the same year at school..(OotP, Snape's Worst Memory chapter).

Ditto Peter, for above stated reasons!

-Thank you, I forgot about the test in Snape's worst memory. All of them were there. But it didn't mention Lily untill they were outside. Is she a year older or younger? Or did Harry just not relize his mother was testing too?
-The Potters did know that Sirius changed who the SK was, didn't they? I would think they did but I can't remeber if it specifide.
-What about Bellatrix. Do you know how old she is? Rereading the book she is married already. to Rodolphus Lestrange. If Sirius is around the same age as Mr. Malfoy, that means that Bellatrix is as well. Isn't Narcissa Bellatix's sister/
-What does "Toujours Pur" mean? Is that the family motto?
-Another question. Are we sure that Lily was a mudblood. We know that harry is halfblood. But the way that Patunia talked about her in the 1st book, she seemed almos jeluse (sp?). We also know that Lily wasn't a goodie to shoes like Hermy because Patunia states that every year she would bring home frog spon and turn teacups into rats. (I believe). Is there something special about frog spon? Lily had it and we know that she was powerful. But so did Ron (4th book).
-Sorry I got a little (or a lot) off topic.

**tee hee** Yeah....you did...but it's okay, I do it quite a bit meself....

Anyway....Yeah, Lily appears outside after the exams, but I'm 98% sure that she is the same age....JKR certainly seems to give that impression...they all left school at around about the same time, didn't they?

Yes, the Potters knew that their Secret Keeper was Pettigrew because Sirius convinced them to change at the last minute....(although that still leaves a whopping great big plot hole that you could drive a juggernaut through...how come Sirius managed to find their house after they had been killed? And Hagrid found it too...not much of a Fidelius charm really then, was it?!)

Don't know about Bellatrix....she was with Rodolphus back in the Pensieve scene, twelve years ago, so they were old enough to have been married then....(a little bit of an assumption there, granted, but anyway....)...I suppose they're both about the same age as Sirius and the rest of them now....around the 35 mark....

'Toujours Pur' is French and it means 'Always pure'...yes, it's the Black family motto (I'm sure it says that in the book somewhere....**shrugs**)

Yes, we're sure that Lily is a mudblood (although that's not a nice thing to call her... ) It's been stated quite a few times in various books....Petunia's jealousy stems from the attention their parents gave to Lily because she was a witch, probably....which might mean one of two things. Either their parents weren't very nice people to show favouritism to one child over another just because one can do something the other can't, or that it was just Petunia's perception of it...their parents really weren't showing favouritism at all....

And no, I don't think there's anything particularly special about the frog spawn...I think it was just a bit of a glib remark from Petunia designed to show her contempt for everything magical....but I guess you never really know with JKR!

And, just to bring us back on topic, I'm sure Lily would have trusted Lupin, but she probably went along with the guys....shame on her...

1) I am pretty sure that Lily is the same age as James, Sirius, etc. Harry just didn't notice that she was taking her OWLs too.

2) Yes, the Potters knew that Pettigrew was their Secret Keeper. Otherwise, how would they have found themselves?

3) Sirius is a bit younger that Mr. Malfoy. Sirius is the same age as Snape, who is 35 or 36 in GoF. Mr. Malfoy is 41 in OotP. Bellatrix is Narcissa's sister, so they are probably relatively close in age.

4) "Toujours Pur" is the Black family motto, and it is French for "Always Pure." Tells a lot about their philosophy about half-bloods and Muggle borns.

5) Yes, we are sure that Lily is Muggle born. It is stated to be true many times throughout the books, and JKR recently said in an interview that Petunia is not a Squib; she is a Muggle. If Lily and Petunia had even one magical parent and Petunia was nonmagical, she would be considered a Squib. So yes, Lily is Muggle born. And I have absolutely no idea what the big deal with frog spawn is.

About Lupin - something was said at the very beginning of this thread about Lupin recognizing Harry by his eyes, and Lily being there for him when nobody else was. I would just like to point out that this is only in the movie - nothing is said like this in the book. And why I think that the Potters didn't make Lupin their Secret-Keeper: sometimes, even if people don't think they are prejudiced, they carry a little tiny bit of prejudice inside them unconsciously. Maybe the Potters didn't trust Lupin completely because he is a werewolf - even if they didn't want to admit that this was the reason, or even if they don't know that this is the reason. Another thing is that we really don't know the circumstances of them choosing their Secret Keeper. Lupin might have done something that made the Potters suspect him.

About the Fidelius Charm - you can be the Secret-Keeper for multiple things/people at the same time; Dumbledore offered to be the Potters' Secret-Keeper while he was the Secret-Keeper for the Order. And also, Dumbledore is the Secret-Keeper for the Order, not each individual member of the Order. I believe that this means he is Secret-Keeper for Headquarters, meaning that nobody will be able to find 12 Grimmauld Place unless Dumbledore tells them where it is.

So why could Sirius and Hagrid find the Potters' house? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Sirius or Hagrid even actually saw Lily and James. When everyone says that Pettigrew (or Sirius, as they often said) was the Potters' Secret-Keeper, was Harry included in this? I can only assume that he was, in which case this is an excellent question. If not (which wouldn't make any sense, as Harry was the one who needed protection), then Sirius and Hagrid would both have seen Harry at his (ruined) house, but they wouldn't have seen Lily and James. This doesn't really make sense, though.

Sorry, I didn't realize that Dana_Scully had already answered those questions!

I think Both lily and James are bit closer to Serious Black rather than Lupin,and probably that they knows Lupin was a warewolf.However Lupin was one of the friend of Lily and James to,but they coulldn't wished that their son was in the hands of warewolf.

OMG. this thread is quiute old, but seeing as it has appeared to have died, i think i shall revive it.


HOW DID SIRIUS AND HAGRID FIND THE HOME???


I dont htink the charm would have ceased after their death because harry was alive. I really am perplexed to have finally have been enlightned in such a way....

any news ideas... i have a about a million, each as unlikely as the next

Well i think he wasent trusted because since he was a wearewolf and was living with all the others that support voldy, voldy could have used lilgenemacy on lupin to find out what he wanted to

I think that they couldn't trust Lupin because he is a werewolf and doesn't LV have control over the werewolfs. Maybe the couldn't count on Lupin not turning. Maybe on the night of LV attack there was a possibility for a full moon so the couldn't trust Lupin to be the secret keeper. Maybe LV has some sort of special control using dark magic to keep the werewolfs under his control when the turn from there human forms. It says that once they turn into there werewolf forms they would attack anyone even there best friend,so maybe they couldn't trust him because he could turn and they wouldn't be able to control him.
Just a thought.

I think a possible reason for Lupin to have such strong connection with Lily is maybe she use to brew the same potion that Snape made for him to keep him form turing or under control. She was just like Snape one of the best potion makers. So maybe thats why her and Lupin were so close.

As to James and Lily being in the same grade its says that they didn't start dating until their 7th year at Hogwarts.

I think it was like others have said he was a wearwolf and they are bad creatures also known to be along with Lord Voldie so therefore even though he was lily james and series's freinds they couldnt trust him because of that so peter seamed the best way for them Lupin must have felt bad but it seams right to me

This was explained in PoA: Sirius was going to be the secret-keeper, as James' closest friend, but at the last minute they switched to Peter, as he was less likely to be suspected. They didn't tell anyone about the switch, for obvious reasons, and that is why everyone thought Sirius was the traitor

And Lupin was too dangerous. I don't think the Potters knew when Voldemort was coming to get Harry. Lupin did not take the potion at those times. If the Potters chose Lupin and Lupin transformed right before Voldemort came to kill Harry, and Lupin got killed by a hunter (muggle or wizard), Voldemort could easily get Harry.

That is not entirely true... When someone is a secret-keeper, they and they alone hold the secret within them... it is really advanced and powerful magic and would not have such weaknesses in it such as death. When the secret-keeper dies, the secret dies with them. Whatever is being hidden will continue to be known to those who were told by the secret-keeper but no one else... they will still be bound by the powers of the Fidelius Charm.

I personally think that Lupin wasnt trusted because it was dark times... The Potters were in hiding, and there was a spy in the ranks... they knew that... they most likely suspected everybody... and Lupin, a werewolf, was in the midst of dark beings quite often... therefore naturally wouldnt be trusted.

~Albus

In answer to "how did sirius and hagrid find the home?"

Only the secret keeper can tell others the whereabouts of the house right? so sirius was the first secret keeper and he obviously told hagrid before passing the responsibility onto pettigrew...

do you think lupin will become the new secret keeper in book 7?



kfc

because he was one of the few people following in the Potter's wake. People knew there was a spy. How exactly, I don't know. But they knew that this spy was keeping a close tab on the movements of the Potters. So it had to be someone close. Someone in the Order or a friend of the Potters.

Pettigrew was the weakest and seemingly the one who isn't the smartest of the group. Lupin and Sirius were good canidates, not eprfect, but good. They were close friends and definetely smart enough.

People just underestimated someone; Peter. A deadly mistake.

I think that it is so sad that Lupin wasn't trusted, he always seems to self-conscious. But he has shown considerable strength, in not turning to the dark side, in not biting other innocents. And I agree with a previous statement about people not believing that thy are prejudice even when they posses underlying prejudices - such as that against werewolves. I also agree agree about the statment about Peter being the most unlikely and weak, and thus least likely to be subjected to suspician from LV that he had the information.

I also loved this



I never thought of it that way.

It makes so much sense, given that the first three were accounted for given there deep and rather complex love (james/lily - romantic relationship, and indeed in danger equally and James/Sirius as brothers - sirius having cast off ihis own blood related family) and Peter being considered the weakling and pathetic of the group

perhaps it was this isolations that was the final straw for Peter, having always seeked the aproval of others - perhaps it provided the perfect opportunity for LV to make his move on the insecure and needy one. The change in dynamic after leaving school must have been such a blow to him, Especially with James paying more attention to Lily in his random days off, and The other three being particularly active in the order, he m,ay have left timid and relatively-weaker (relatively!) at a loose end, and more importantly with noone to gratify and 'worship'

However, he did manage to animagus spell, shouldn't this have rund alarm bells for James about the extent of Peters abilities

Also, from OotP we know that Lupins' primary job within the Order is to act as a secret spy within the werewolf (or dark) community, thus spending a substantial amount of his time with them, I supopose that we could learn through the theories regarding Snape (and his present secret allegence spy secret) that such affiliation with the dark side can obviously lead to distrust, perhaps he was considered the Snape of their time. Perhaps James etc, were a little wary of presenting such an important secret to someone who spent so much time with the enemy

Futhermore, it is stated within the books, that Lupin is especially week following his transformations, perhaps presenting an opportune time to force secretes from him via whatever magical means, which is harsh with regards to his ability to withstand such monthly torture, but then again the dark side isn't exactly renown for its cuddliness. How hard would it be to make a person weakened significantly subsequent to his tranformation to take (and not mentally resist) veristaserum or something.

Also, Remus always seemed some what low on self- esteem or at least extraordinarily modest (I love Lupin and would shout his attributes from the tallest tower, but he is modest enough not to ) and so maybe they thought that this supposed 'weakness' in him might make him susseptable to the 'gifts' and 'acceptance' offered by dark companions (within which he was a spy)

I honestly believe myself that he would have made a marvelous secret keeper, but then again I wasn't living in the times that they were - imagine having a friend that frequently went to converse with your enemies

______

How did Hagrid, DD and sirius (and now Harry) know their wereabouts? what a good question



good popint, or perhaps Sirius told Hagrid, in his frantic state when asking about the whereabout of Peter on the night of the dreaded-occurance. He must have be going mad with worry, and him knwoing the secret already but not being held-to-ransom by the charm he would have seeked information from whomever might know such as DD or Hagrid.

However, didn't Hagrid call Sirius Black concerning the conceversation after the event at Grimauld place, suggesting that they weren't particuarly close -

However (again) , on the other hand it is widely known that Hagrid is close to DD, and James was inturn close to DD who was close to Sirius...
so in his frantic worried state, he might have come across Hagrid first and blurted everything out

Aargh I'm, all confused
________________
What a fantastic thread

Well, if you look back at the fifth book, Harry enter's Snape's memory with his father, Sirius Lupid and uh, the other guy, Wormtail, anyway, it mentioned that Lupid wass studying and James and Sirius were laughing together and playing jokes. I think that the reason the Potter's didn't mae Lupid the secret keeper was simply because they were closer to Sirius. I don't think it's a huge issue or anything, that's just wht I think. Sirius was just always there, James still loved Lupin but they just decided on Sirius instead.

~.:Hogwarts.Bound:.~

I agree completely with the Lupin-was-the-logical-choice-left theory. James, Lily and Sirius made the mistake of underestimating Peter.

I also agree that it is SO SAD that he wasn't trusted. If they had switched from Sirius to Lupin, as opposed to Sirius to Peter, then EVERYTHING would be alright.

(Well...HP's parents would be alive and thw whole series would be non-existant...then again, LV wouldn't have met the beginning of his end...so he could have risen to become even more poewerful and taken over everything...or something...)

Hm. Ironic, isn't it?

I don't remember a word that they didn't trust Lupin.Maybe they didn't choose Lupin as a keeper because Sirius was already there, qualify as a good keeper.But then Siirius refuses and pass it on to Peter.Maybe they also ask Lupin to be a secret-keeper but he refuses because he is a werewolf and can't control his self during the full moon.

Sirius said he thought that Lupin wsa the traitor so he probably convinced Lily and James that or beloved Lupin was the traitor because the Potters knew one of their friends was a traitor leaking information to Voldemort.

I'd imagine that this is exactly why he wasn't the immediate back-up.

It wasn't that they suspected him; it was that Sirius used him in an attempt to literally get rid of Snape. Can you imagine what would have happened if James hadn't gone after Snape? Lupin would have killed him, and had to have the death of a human on his conscience. Besides the fact that he'd have likely been caught and sent to Azkaban, he would have had to know everyday for the rest of his life that he'd killed someone. (Canon clearly demonstrates that that was Lupin's greatest fear.)

A friend doesn't put you in the position to carry that guilt. Nor does a friend put you in a position to be a murderer, even if the victim is someone none of you can stand...

I can't imagine the friendship between Sirius and Remus was ever the same after that day. It's clear that James and Sirius were basically brothers, so when things became too tense, it's obvious why Lupin became the outsider. Peter was too much of a coward to stand up for Lupin, to remind James & Sirius that had it not been for Sirius' blatant disregard for his supposed "best friend" there would be no fight.

The four marauders disintegrate, it becomes James & Sirius, with Peter in the next tier. Lupin is still considered a friend, but no longer "family." (Peter is "B" List and Lupin is "C" list.) And when talk of spies arises, Lupin's the obvious choice. He's somewhat estranged, still bitter about Sirius' immaturity, so encounters between them aren't likely to be civil, and it's like teenaged girls - turning on one of their own faster than you can say "hairbrush."

I really don't think that James & Sirius were affected by the werewolf prejudice. They became animagi for him. I really doubt that his werewolf status entered into the equation for them. But pressure from others could have encouraged them to hold onto their preconceived notions... (I'm certain that others were part of discussions as to who the secret-keeper should be, and many would have been disturbed by Remus "furry little problem.")

It also tidily explains why Lupin would have thought Sirius to be the traitor, too. If they weren't otherwise estranged at the time of the Potter's deaths, I can't imagine that Lupin could have been that suspicious of Sirius. I guess it could just be one of those "tried in the press" situations where everyone's minds are swayed even though the press was wrong. I just think that IF they hadn't been estranged, Lupin might have reached out to Sirius during his time in prison. It would be hard to believe that one of your best friends' betrayed another (and the other's wife and child.) But if you're already harboring resentment, it might not be so tough.

(And can I join the I Lupin fan club? Until he became a moron in Deathly Hallows - which he does repent for during that Potterwatch episode - he was my favorite character, tied with Snape.)

Thanks for all those quotes, there. Really helped me out allot...



I think I get what your saying- and I agree with it.

It would make sence that Lupin was mad at Sirius for trying to get him to kill Snape. And I suppose since Lupin's so quite, and always the more thoughtful one (let's use that word- 'thoughtful' for now, because he's always thought things out just a bit more than the others of the group), that would make hima more obvious suspect... but I don't think so. I think it might've been partly that- for Sirius, anyways- but not completely. Lily and him did have some sort of a conection... but what? I haven't read the 7th book just yet (sad, I know) and I do hope they shed some light on it (please don't spoil me as to if any light is or isn't shed). It was also the process of illimination. Peter was too cowardly to do anything like that that he was quickly rualed out, and Sirius was himself, so that couldn't have been.But James trusted Sirius so VERY much that Lupin had to think it was him. Not only because h was so 'evil' to try to make him kill Snape, but because he thought Sirius would and was abusing that trust that James had given him.

Face it, guys, the Maurderers (sp?) weren't as happy and cheerful at Hogwarts as they always were by the last year or two. I think some of it was a game- if they were even playing along at all. Perhaps Lupin was distant ever since after that night with Snape? So distant, perhaps, that he may release the secret (in Sirius' mind).

The real question here should be 'Why does Sirius hate Snape so much?' Yes, he's a git and all that, but what makes him dispise the man enough to get him killed? Even back then- before they graduated Hogwarts- he loathed the man. Why?

Again, I'd like to state that I have not read Deathly Hallows yet (it's driving me crazy, too) and if there is anything cleared up in the book that I have mentioned questions about PLEASE do not tell me even if it's answered. I know some spoilers already (some very large, too), and have not spoiled others if they have not wanted it... I ask the same of you. Thank you.

I think the answer lies in Sirius' attitude towards his own family. He despised being a Black and having all these Pureblood-worshipping Slytherins in his family. Snape, as an outsider (seemingly friendless), Slytherin, and someone who had his nose in the Dark Arts, was an effective proxy for Sirius' disdain. Sirius probably saw Snape as someone he could've been, and hated it and him.

I agree here about why he would hate Snape so much. He was running away from his "pureblood" families beliefs, and here is Snape feeding into all that his family believed for so long that he did not trust that he would have changed. Sirius could have easily fell into the same lifestyle as Snape, and it frightened him. Plus the fact that his own brother became a DE, and was murdered once he left.

I think that Lupin, like Sirius, would have been another obvious person to be the secret keeper, and would have been targeted by LV. I do not think it was a lack of trust, but the fact that they felt Lupin and Sirius would have been sitting ducks for what happened to Neville's parents, and that making Peter the sk was a way of protecting them.

Erm, actually, let my add my two cents.

Didn't Sirius tell us Peter was begging to be the Secret Keeper, and he agreed to it just because he knew Peter was too cowardly and weak to be searched upon by Voldemort? So, that's kind of the answer.

Sirius just gave in to Pete's request for the Potter's good and to shut his yap up.

i actually dont remember peter beggin to be secret keeper i think they would have became suspisous of that as its a big responsibilty...they changed to him last minute as siruis thought it would be best..and i belive they did not choose lupin because he was already under alot of stress with the whole furry little problem he has and more strain on him that the darklord could hunt him dont personally probley would be best for his health

I guess that making Lupin the Secret Keeper is nearly the same as making Sirius one...everyone would guess if its not Sirius it must be remus....the point was that noone was thinking that Peter would be chosen as he was so inconsiderable...but everyone would have considered Lupin as second...
Peter was the most unseemingly and therefore he was picked not Sirius or Remus as everyone would have guessed...
I dont think it was a lack of trust though

I suppose Lily and James and Dumbledore might have been a little predjiduced with Remus. About him being a werewolf that will make him untrustworthy is just wrong. But I also suppose that if they chose Remus as secret-keeper, after Voldemort tryed to go after Sirius he would go after Remus because he seemed the more likely choice after Sirius.

I don't think Dumbledore had anything against Remus. Do you really think Dumbledore would have a person spy and be in the midst of his/their enemy of he didn't trust the person completely?

James and Sirius are a different case. Yes, he was their best friend. Yes, they would do anything for him, including die. But James and Sirius are purebloods. They both come from old pureblood families and were raised strictly magical. Because of this, they were subconsciously prejudiced against Remus. 'Werewolves are evil' had been pound into their brain for their entire lives. It was engrained into their subconscious. They probably don't even realize it. They would never admit it. They would vehemently deny it, also. But it is there. That is why they would be suspicious of Remus. Not directly, of course. There is always reason to be suspicious of someone. There was reason for James to suspect Sirius, Remus, and Peter. The same goes for Sirius. But they acted on their suspiciouns for Remus because of the prejudice towards werewolves they harbored in their subconscious.

Lily, being muggleborn, would be exempt. So therefor, she would still have complete faith in Remus. That is why, I believe, she still trusted him. Lily was there for Remus at a time when no one else was, and this was it.

I am not sure why they didn't go with Lily's opinion. Hmm... I am going to be picking my brains now.

~Prod

I don't think it had anything to do with Remus being a werewolf. Sirius was chosen to be the secret keeper because he and James were best friends. They were tighter then any other two people of there quad.

The only reason Sirius suggested switching to Wormtail is because he thought naturally the Dark Lord would go after him and not someone so mediocre as Peter Pettigrew. Sirius and Peter didn't tell anyone of the switch because somehow information agaisnt the Order was being leaked to the Dark Lord and no one knew who it was...everyone was suspected, even Remus Lupin. James would have done anything to protect his best friend, even not tell his other friend of the switch.

So why did Sirius and the Potters seem to trust Peter more than Lupin? That is simple. Peter always hid behind the protection of someone more powerful. It had always been James and Lupin and Sirius. No one thought that he would jeopardize his alliance with them, epecially after being such good friends in school for going to the Death Eaters. In other words everyone underestimated the cowardice of Wormtail.

So this is my round about way of saying that Lupin was not the secret keeper because everyone was a suspect and Wormtail was seen as too cowardly to switch loyalties.