I have just finished rereading the series and have had a brainwave about what may happen in book 7 as a result of spotting some clues I had not seen previously.
Dumbledore is dead, so are Sirius, James and Lily and family members of other prominent characters (including the Prewett brothers who presumably are related to Molly Weasley). These are all people who we would like to see again and in a sense are present in the memories of living characters Dumbledore says the dead we have loved never truly leave us.
There have been numerous clues about the nature of death in the books. People cannot return from the dead, ghosts are people who have not gone wholly into death and do not known what lies further into true death, Voldermort fears death as he fears the unknown and has taken more steps in terms of knowledge and experiment to avoid death than any other wizard. However, we also know that Dumbledore does not fear death - he tells Harry that fear of death and the dark is only fear of the unknown, and describes death as the next big adventure - and this is generally assumed to apply to members of the Order of the Phoenix.
ANYWAY. Where I am going with this is that several major characters are now behind the veil from which they cannot return, but they are not nothing - they exist but they cannot come back. I think that in book 7 Harry will die (JKR has hinted heavily at this) and so enter the one thing that Voldemort fears, doing something Voldemort could not, and taking Voldemort with him with any luck (since neither can live while the other survives this suggests their deaths are interdependent - but then both seem to have been surviving simultaneously for the last 16 years). But, crucially, JKR will reveal at this point her most powerful lesson, answering the biggest question humans grapple with, and show that at least in wizards circles death is not to be feared, is not a sudden unknowing end after which there is nothing. I think Harry will die, but we will not all be so sad as you might think, because he might continue to exist in some form and be reunited with his parents, godfather and his mentor Dumbledore, as their love will somehow ensure they are able to reunite with him on the other side. I think we will see what is on the other side of the veil - Nearly Headless Nick mentions at the end of OotP that learned wizards are working on this mystery, and there is clearly some form of existence after death since there is chattering on the other side of the veil - and that it will be a great adventure and we will leave Harry happily about to embark on it, having hopefully left some happy endings behind in the world of the living, too.
I can't see JKR leaving Harry alive at the end of book 7 - she'd never be free of people plaguing her to write more about him - but I think she has dropped hints throughout the series that those who go into death, go somewhere. I also think Harry must have the last laugh over Voldemort who will kick himself in the end for being afraid of it as he will end up in some sort of vile limbo, unlike those who are not afraid and enter death whole.
I feel sure from clues in the books that JKR will have something to show us on the other side of the veil, but I must stress this is entirely my speculation, I have no insider knowledge, and my ideas are wholly within a secular, wizarding context. What does anyone else think?
palaeo-goddess
Full Version: Is The Whole Thing About Love And Death?
Can't agree more. There are hordes of clues that Harry will die, because, like you said, many of those who didn't fear death have died.
He is Dumbledore's man through and through, he speaks of death like his mother and father's son and Sirius's true godson - I can't see how he won't join them in the end. What I find fascinating is the connection between love and death and bravery. Let Dumbledore stand for Gryffindor and Voldemort for Slytherin:
Gryffindors are brave, are prepared to face death and value love. Slytherins are not necessarily brave, but seek immediate rewards for their trouble - therefore not too keen on dying since there is no guaranteed reward. It's almost as if they do not have faith that their good deeds will be rewarded, because they don't always do good. They do not love and trust in such a general way as Gryffindors do, but are distrustful unless they have absolute proof.
So how does death relate to love? Usually life and love is seen as equivalent, and the bad guys always die. Is the message maybe that life is not just about breathing? This sonnet by Donne sums it up in my opinion. It has a Christian background, but if one takes the wizarding afterlife as a Harry Potter theme, it works as well.
DEATH be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadfull, for, thou art not so,
For, those, whom thou think'st, thou dost overthrow,
Die not, poore death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleepe, which but thy pictures bee, 5
Much pleasure, then from thee, much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee doe goe,
Rest of their bones, and soules deliverie.
Thou art slave to Fate, Chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poyson, warre, and sicknesse dwell, 10
And poppie, or charmes can make us sleepe as well,
And better then thy stroake; why swell'st thou then;
One short sleepe past, wee wake eternally,
And death shall be no more; death, thou shalt die.
Here's a piece from 'Ulysses' by Tennyson:
Yet all experience is an arch wherethro'
Gleams that untravell'd world, whose margin fades
For ever and for ever when I move.
How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
To rust unburnish'd, not to shine in use!
As tho' to breath were life.
The arch here made me think of the veil - a gateway to another world. Living is not about breathing but about doing what you believe in, wherever you are. Interesting that what Voldemort sees as living, is not - he was prepared to lead a life as a mere spirit, unable to do anything to help himself. He was at the mercy of followers who had abandoned him as soon as his power vanished.
That isn't living. And though Dumbledore is dead and Voldemort alive, I still believe that Dumbledore is more alive than Voldemort will ever again be.
Voldemort wants autonomy: he wants to call the shots. And yet, he was at the mercy of chance to have another opportunity at a life. He had to rely apon a piece of vermin like Pettigrew. Dumbledore, on the other hand, has never had to explain anything to anyone. He had always done as he pleased and was moreover, respected for it. Who had the real autonomy here - Voldemort, who feared death, or Dumbledore, who didn't?
He is Dumbledore's man through and through, he speaks of death like his mother and father's son and Sirius's true godson - I can't see how he won't join them in the end. What I find fascinating is the connection between love and death and bravery. Let Dumbledore stand for Gryffindor and Voldemort for Slytherin:
Gryffindors are brave, are prepared to face death and value love. Slytherins are not necessarily brave, but seek immediate rewards for their trouble - therefore not too keen on dying since there is no guaranteed reward. It's almost as if they do not have faith that their good deeds will be rewarded, because they don't always do good. They do not love and trust in such a general way as Gryffindors do, but are distrustful unless they have absolute proof.
So how does death relate to love? Usually life and love is seen as equivalent, and the bad guys always die. Is the message maybe that life is not just about breathing? This sonnet by Donne sums it up in my opinion. It has a Christian background, but if one takes the wizarding afterlife as a Harry Potter theme, it works as well.
DEATH be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadfull, for, thou art not so,
For, those, whom thou think'st, thou dost overthrow,
Die not, poore death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleepe, which but thy pictures bee, 5
Much pleasure, then from thee, much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee doe goe,
Rest of their bones, and soules deliverie.
Thou art slave to Fate, Chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poyson, warre, and sicknesse dwell, 10
And poppie, or charmes can make us sleepe as well,
And better then thy stroake; why swell'st thou then;
One short sleepe past, wee wake eternally,
And death shall be no more; death, thou shalt die.
Here's a piece from 'Ulysses' by Tennyson:
Yet all experience is an arch wherethro'
Gleams that untravell'd world, whose margin fades
For ever and for ever when I move.
How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
To rust unburnish'd, not to shine in use!
As tho' to breath were life.
The arch here made me think of the veil - a gateway to another world. Living is not about breathing but about doing what you believe in, wherever you are. Interesting that what Voldemort sees as living, is not - he was prepared to lead a life as a mere spirit, unable to do anything to help himself. He was at the mercy of followers who had abandoned him as soon as his power vanished.
That isn't living. And though Dumbledore is dead and Voldemort alive, I still believe that Dumbledore is more alive than Voldemort will ever again be.
Voldemort wants autonomy: he wants to call the shots. And yet, he was at the mercy of chance to have another opportunity at a life. He had to rely apon a piece of vermin like Pettigrew. Dumbledore, on the other hand, has never had to explain anything to anyone. He had always done as he pleased and was moreover, respected for it. Who had the real autonomy here - Voldemort, who feared death, or Dumbledore, who didn't?
i read only till 5th books of hp series where serious has died,i also got news that Dumbuldore shuol also died in that 6th book,can anyone of u told me that either harry would alive aor dead also?coz one of u said that a good and intelligent wizard would have to be died at the end.
I wouldn't say the whole thing, though about 85% of it is. Love is the power that LV cannot have and the power that it will take to defeat him. All the people who think "death is but the next great adventure" (DD in PS) or something similar to that, have died. If Harry dies at LV's hands, which I think that he will, he will die knowing that he is going on the the next great adventure. I'm not sure if Harry realizes it yet, but death is the next great adventure. Or at least for this series. 
I agree I think most of the books are about love/death but not completely.
If Harry will die, as it is hinted he might, he will take Voldemort with him. And Voldemort will have to embrace his fear.
If Harry will die, as it is hinted he might, he will take Voldemort with him. And Voldemort will have to embrace his fear.
I'll answer the topic question here:
"Is the whole thing about Love and Death?"
Yes. It's about how Love willingly succumbs to death, only to defeat it utterly.
I would suggest, however, that anyone seeking the identity of Love in the series should look for someone who, unlike Harry, does not demonstrate the weakness of hating certain people with the same desperate passion with which he loves others. No, this One does not hate anyone, because it is completely alien to his nature.
"Is the whole thing about Love and Death?"
Yes. It's about how Love willingly succumbs to death, only to defeat it utterly.
I would suggest, however, that anyone seeking the identity of Love in the series should look for someone who, unlike Harry, does not demonstrate the weakness of hating certain people with the same desperate passion with which he loves others. No, this One does not hate anyone, because it is completely alien to his nature.
This topic's really deep... I would love to add my bit...
I think this series is totally about love and death. Because Harry loved those he lost. he'll be willing (I hope) to die for them to kill Voldemort. You noticed that Voldy cannot love, and he fears death, yet Harry has said in book six that he would die in the attempt to kill Voldy if he had to, and take Voldy with him. Because Harry does love, he would be willing to die to save the Wizarding world. I think it would be cool if Harry saw his parents and Sirius and Dumbledore on the other side of the Veil. It would be a great closing to the series.
I think this series is totally about love and death. Because Harry loved those he lost. he'll be willing (I hope) to die for them to kill Voldemort. You noticed that Voldy cannot love, and he fears death, yet Harry has said in book six that he would die in the attempt to kill Voldy if he had to, and take Voldy with him. Because Harry does love, he would be willing to die to save the Wizarding world. I think it would be cool if Harry saw his parents and Sirius and Dumbledore on the other side of the Veil. It would be a great closing to the series.
I agree that Love and death have played a huge part and that Harry may very well die for those he loves in the living and dead (As JK has suggested that Harry may die in her latest interview anyway). I just think that to die or to expierience death with having a life so full of love and compassionate is the way a hero should leave this world. However, I don't that at Harry's age that it would be fair to end his life after all the hardships and pain he has already suffered. Yeah he would be taking Voldermort out and saving the wizarding world, but why kill him before he has a chance to experience a world without fear and hatred for a little while. But I guess that it is because most of his loved ones are already dead and he is saving those that he loves now, that he will embrace death and maybe even be grateful. I don't know how it will end, but it should end with a smile on Harry's face.
Jk has made so many references to the words love and death that it is driving me and probably some people crazy. there is a definete relation between the two and we all see that. harry has the power to love voldemort does not. voldemort wants harry to die,etc. love and death has played such a mjor role in itself. harry name speaks love and voldemorts speaks death. i believe that the whole series can come right down to those two simple words. they have so much meaning and jk has put so much description into the words explaing how they will help harry or voldemort in the end. harry may die in the end or sacrifice himself for all of the good in the world and for his friends. or he may die at the hands of voldemort. same thing for voldemort. harry must kill him in the end. harry has the power of love which jk has said that that will be the ultimate power in harry defeating voldemort. everything that she has written lies within those two words. love and death is what it will all come down to in the very end.
I honestly hope that in the end we get a sit-down talk with Voldemort.... it sthe only way to get any real info, i dont know how JK would write that but i want to see why LV has no love, and why he is infatuated with Death
A sit down talk with Voldy? Sounds good...
Anyways, I totally agree. I think that the the veil, itself, is the 'other world', if you would call it that.
Also, if I may bring up a point that palaeo-goddess made in her first post, once a person dies, and goes 'into the veil', then that person is not alive, and can not be brought back to life, but they continue to exisit in another form. So if we stretch it, a dead person may survive after they die.
Now for the prophecy. JKR says she worded the prophecy extremly carefully. She deliberatly used the word survives, not lives or exists. See what I'm getting at? Voldemort will kill Harry, or Harry will kill Voldemort- it does not matter for these purposes-, but the survivor will not be able to continue living, and therefore die as well, joining the deceased beyond the veil.
Now lets take this a step further. My theory is that Harry will somehow open the door to the Love Room, as I call it. For those who have forgotten, it is a room in DoM which is locked at all times, and there have been very obvious clues (p. 843,844 of OotP, the American version) which lead me and many others to believe that it contains love, or an emotion similar to it.
So back to my theory, Harry, as stated, will open the door to the Love Room and use the love in it to kill Voldemort. And there the story ends, and it will seem that JKR decided to go for a happy ending afterall.
But another thing that JKR suggested in one of her many interviews is that there is a good chance she will write an epilogue chapter at the end of Book 7, which tells about the people who survived and what happened to them.
So, Voldemort is dead, but he still continues beyond the Veil. Would that mean that Harry can not live a quiet life like he anticipated, because of Voldemort's existence beyond the veil?
And for that reason, he would die, or kill himself in this or that method- and his living friends would also go through the veil, into this other world. So it comes out a happy ending, despite everybody dying. Which is kinda ironic, when you think of it, but thats my theory.
Anyways, I totally agree. I think that the the veil, itself, is the 'other world', if you would call it that.
Also, if I may bring up a point that palaeo-goddess made in her first post, once a person dies, and goes 'into the veil', then that person is not alive, and can not be brought back to life, but they continue to exisit in another form. So if we stretch it, a dead person may survive after they die.
Now for the prophecy. JKR says she worded the prophecy extremly carefully. She deliberatly used the word survives, not lives or exists. See what I'm getting at? Voldemort will kill Harry, or Harry will kill Voldemort- it does not matter for these purposes-, but the survivor will not be able to continue living, and therefore die as well, joining the deceased beyond the veil.
Now lets take this a step further. My theory is that Harry will somehow open the door to the Love Room, as I call it. For those who have forgotten, it is a room in DoM which is locked at all times, and there have been very obvious clues (p. 843,844 of OotP, the American version) which lead me and many others to believe that it contains love, or an emotion similar to it.
So back to my theory, Harry, as stated, will open the door to the Love Room and use the love in it to kill Voldemort. And there the story ends, and it will seem that JKR decided to go for a happy ending afterall.
But another thing that JKR suggested in one of her many interviews is that there is a good chance she will write an epilogue chapter at the end of Book 7, which tells about the people who survived and what happened to them.
So, Voldemort is dead, but he still continues beyond the Veil. Would that mean that Harry can not live a quiet life like he anticipated, because of Voldemort's existence beyond the veil?
And for that reason, he would die, or kill himself in this or that method- and his living friends would also go through the veil, into this other world. So it comes out a happy ending, despite everybody dying. Which is kinda ironic, when you think of it, but thats my theory.
it seems as though you guys arent focusing on the element of love enogh rememberwhat dumbledore said in one of the earlier books you have somthing that voldemort has not Harry: What? Dumbledore:Love it seems harry has used this element more than once to fight voldemortI think that by the end of the series harrys love for Ginny ron and hermione(as freinds) because that is another thing that voldermort never had and that was freindship i have a feeling these elements put together will conquer voldemort im not sayin harry still wont die but he will die very happy
~this is a very good topic by the way~
~this is a very good topic by the way~
Emma_1fan, you are a genious.
Seriously, just by reading your post, I have developed what I think is a wonderful, and likely, theory.
You know how I said that somehow Harry was going to open the Love Room. Well, I've figured out how.
Just like you said, his love for Rom, Hermione, Ginny, and even his love for Sirius, DD, and his parents, who are now dead (thanks to Voldy), will open up the Love Room. I haven't exactly figured out the details, but I'll get back to you about that...
Seriously, just by reading your post, I have developed what I think is a wonderful, and likely, theory.
You know how I said that somehow Harry was going to open the Love Room. Well, I've figured out how.
Just like you said, his love for Rom, Hermione, Ginny, and even his love for Sirius, DD, and his parents, who are now dead (thanks to Voldy), will open up the Love Room. I haven't exactly figured out the details, but I'll get back to you about that...
QUOTE
i want to see why LV has no love, and why he is infatuated with Death
I think people have been trying to answer that in the thread about Voldemort and serial killers. Mostly this probably is because he was never loved, and his only chance at a mother's love died with Merope.
QUOTE
I think that by the end of the series harrys love for Ginny ron and hermione(as freinds) because that is another thing that voldermort never had and that was freindship i have a feeling these elements put together will conquer voldemort im not sayin harry still wont die but he will die very happy
Very good point!
It strikes me that a lot of people on this forum think Harry's going to die. I think that Harry's lack of fear of death is what makes the difference. I hope that this means that Harry doesn't necessarily have to die to show this.
I couldn't agree anymore, but something is telling me that JK would want Harry to live a good life of happiness after all the hell he has been put through and then die peacefully and naturally. But yes I absolutely agree with. Many people who haven't feared death have died.
Wow, this is an amazing topic! I do agree with Padfoot313 and james pickles about the fact that after all Harry has been through he, more than anyone in the entire world, deserves one day of peace. He needs one day where there is nothing in the world to fear or worry about, and that day can only come when Voldemort is dead. However, if Harry must die then I like the way everyone described it. I've always thought of Harry dying as being an absolutely horrid way to end the series, but the way you guys described it, about him dying happy, seems nice. I don't mean that I want Harry to die, but if he has to then maybe it can be nice, having him pass through the veil and being reunited with his lost loved ones. This is a really great topic!
This is a great topic, yes, I must agree. And I do believe all Gryffindors arent necessarily afraid of death, or wont be atleast. But it would be a horrible thing for Harry to die, JK said that he wanted a normal happy life, and what about the epilogue.. Wouldnt be nice if everyone was mourning over Harrys death, probly including Ginny. I dont want Harry to die, But for sure I know Voldy will. Kinda hard to say. Oooo Emma_1fan I say your a genious, I think that his love for his friends and his other deceased family and friends will win over Voldemort, opening the "Love Room" and killing him. I agree with everyone including james... Yah hes been through living hell, you'd think Harry would want to lead on to a normal wizard life with his lifelong friends and soon to be wife, I hope, Hermione, haha, wont happen, but whatever. I love this topic, but seriously, Id cry if Harry died after all hes been through.
I think if harry does die,i hope he does not,he should die peacefully.He should at least die knowing he saved the wizarding world from Lord Voldy.He should die as a hero.I don't think he'll become a ghost if he does die.I think Harry is way too brave to be afraid of dying.I mean, if he was he wouldn't of accomplished anything in the past six years of his life.Like you said maybe he'll go through the veil and be reunited with his parents,Sirius,and of course Prof.dumblydore.LOL.That would be kinda nicer than dying painfully.
I think if harry does die,i hope he does not,he should die peacefully.He should at least die knowing he saved the wizarding world from Lord Voldy.He should die as a hero.I don't think he'll become a ghost if he does die.I think Harry is way too brave to be afraid of dying.I mean, if he was he wouldn't of accomplished anything in the past six years of his life.Like you said maybe he'll go through the veil and be reunited with his parents,Sirius,and of course Prof.dumblydore.LOL.That would be kinda nicer than dying painfully.
Sorry ! I clicked the "add reply"button twice.LOL
It was an accident. I solemly swear.
I hope if Harry does die, he won't die from being tortured by Voldemort. That would be so awful.
THAT TIME I DIDN'T DO IT.WHAT'S WRONG WITH MY COMPUTER?
[Mod Edit] Hi, its okay glitches happen sometimes and I've experienced the double texting too.
I think if harry does die,i hope he does not,he should die peacefully.He should at least die knowing he saved the wizarding world from Lord Voldy.He should die as a hero.I don't think he'll become a ghost if he does die.I think Harry is way too brave to be afraid of dying.I mean, if he was he wouldn't of accomplished anything in the past six years of his life.Like you said maybe he'll go through the veil and be reunited with his parents,Sirius,and of course Prof.dumblydore.LOL.That would be kinda nicer than dying painfully.
Sorry ! I clicked the "add reply"button twice.LOL
It was an accident. I solemly swear.
I hope if Harry does die, he won't die from being tortured by Voldemort. That would be so awful.
THAT TIME I DIDN'T DO IT.WHAT'S WRONG WITH MY COMPUTER?
[Mod Edit] Hi, its okay glitches happen sometimes and I've experienced the double texting too.
I believe that the series in general is less about love being an antithesis to hate or evil that to good.
As someone already pointed out Harry himself has the ability to love as passionately as he hates. I think that the series will be more about the individual’s ability to choose love when it is easier to choose hate. I think it was Dumbledore that suggested that there will come a time when Harry must chose between "what is right and what is easy" and I think it completely apple’s here.
After months of roaming this site and reading and re-reading the books, I also have come to the conclusion that Harry will die but I think it will be fitting, honourable and provide some form of closure to the series.
As to whether Rowling will allow some le-way as to maybe Harry existing in another form, I hope so, but let’s not forget, this is not your or my world we’re talking about, it’s the Harry’s world and I think book 7 will prove that anything can happen.
winter,
As someone already pointed out Harry himself has the ability to love as passionately as he hates. I think that the series will be more about the individual’s ability to choose love when it is easier to choose hate. I think it was Dumbledore that suggested that there will come a time when Harry must chose between "what is right and what is easy" and I think it completely apple’s here.
After months of roaming this site and reading and re-reading the books, I also have come to the conclusion that Harry will die but I think it will be fitting, honourable and provide some form of closure to the series.
As to whether Rowling will allow some le-way as to maybe Harry existing in another form, I hope so, but let’s not forget, this is not your or my world we’re talking about, it’s the Harry’s world and I think book 7 will prove that anything can happen.
winter,
QUOTE
Yes. It's about how Love willingly succumbs to death, only to defeat it utterly.
thats fits PERFECTLY. i would have to say that if voldemort were to die too, hes would not be stuck in some sort of limbo, he would continue to the afterlife and have to somehow learn from his mistakes and earn his way so happiness or something. just a quick thought..
Very good thread..Intense..I believe that the best books are the kind that make you think outside of the pages and even within yourself..Clearly judging by some of the brilliant posts on this thread this holds true for HP as well. I think the whole of human existence is about love and death. Life comes to us naturally, after that death is imminent...So it is up to us to increase our fullfillment of our existence to find happiness, and ultimately happiness is linked with love, companionship and the ties that bind. I think that the idea that Harry will die and thus be reunited with his parents, godfather and mentor on the other side is a beautiful idea, and would provide a happy maybe even wonderful ending..Is it too much to ask though? After all we do not know in reality what death holds for us, but there has always been specualtion. Would we be satisfied to see Harry embrace his parents and walk off "into the light" so to speak with Sirius and Dumbledore in tow? On the other hand, it does leave a rather raw deal for Ron, Hermonie, Ginny and Harry's loved ones on this end. In order for the book to end happily does everyone have to die so they can ALL be together?? I guess that's the ultimate problem with death, somebody always has to be left behind... It also begs the question..If Harry does die, and takes Voldemort with him because obviously Voldemort has to die or JKR would have to keep writing to tell us how he destryoed the wrorld with his lust for power...But I digress....If Harry dies and goes to the other side, how will JKR paint the land of the dead, and will people accept it? Nothing is more controversial than the exisntence of the afterlife..and as it is I haven't really seen JKR get into those kinds of topics..Sure, there has been death, but death is natural and expected in our world of reality, it's what happens after death where you have lines drawn in public opinion. Is she willing to take on this topic, and if she is, is that what is going to make or break this final book?
well i think that it would definately make things way more interesting if JK wrote something semi-controvercial. it would have people talking about the book months or maybe even years after it was released. guess its her call though.. i just dont think i can wait very much longer; all this guess work is driving me mad! 
THat is so possible i cant believe that i didnt think of that!! cheers! 
MOD EDIT: One-liners and very short posts are not allowed on the forums. Please try to elaborate more in the future. Posts should be at least two typed lines of text when posted in the thread (there's a slight variation between the text box and the posted text). If you have any questions, please PM me or another staff member. Thanks!
MOD EDIT: One-liners and very short posts are not allowed on the forums. Please try to elaborate more in the future. Posts should be at least two typed lines of text when posted in the thread (there's a slight variation between the text box and the posted text). If you have any questions, please PM me or another staff member. Thanks!
Great post, I like your thinking.
My thought on the matter is that the veil might not be as big as we all think. Jo made the veil to be a suspicious area of the books. We don't know anything about it, except that it was probably, at one point or another (or perhaps it still was, which I doubt) used as an exeution chamber.
It was placed in an amphitheater. That is like a colleseum, if that will help you picture it better. With the archway raised a bit from the ground on a platform. I believe that this is like the equivilant of the electric chair, but I really don't know, and that isn't too relevant.
The whispers were odd. And I wonder whether it is one of those things (assuming that Harry wasn't halucinating anything) like the Thestrals where you have to see death to be able to hear the whispers beyond the veil. I admit to not believing that Luna could actually see what Harry was seeing at first, but I was proved wrong, and I hope to be proved wrong again.
Anyways, back to your post. The Prophecy may or may not be fullfilled. I think it will be, but I would not be at all surprised if it wasn't. Harry taking Voldemort with him through the veil began as a fan-fiction that gained popularity. I should know. And I do disagree with that, what it has become...a theory.
Harry may die. Who knows. I think that she really has not hinted at Harry's death. She has stayed relatively tight lipped, despsite the many authors who plead for her to not kill Harry. Fans pesturing her to write more is not a hint by her, rather just something that is inevitable if Harry does live.
There is a line that Jo really shouldn't cross, and that is bringing the dead back to life. Ghosts are fine and all, because they never really....died. Their body decayed, their souls left behind. They are half-dead. That is fine, but bringing someone back through the veil, or even Harry having an adventure through the veil, is something I really do NOT want to see...
My thought on the matter is that the veil might not be as big as we all think. Jo made the veil to be a suspicious area of the books. We don't know anything about it, except that it was probably, at one point or another (or perhaps it still was, which I doubt) used as an exeution chamber.
It was placed in an amphitheater. That is like a colleseum, if that will help you picture it better. With the archway raised a bit from the ground on a platform. I believe that this is like the equivilant of the electric chair, but I really don't know, and that isn't too relevant.
The whispers were odd. And I wonder whether it is one of those things (assuming that Harry wasn't halucinating anything) like the Thestrals where you have to see death to be able to hear the whispers beyond the veil. I admit to not believing that Luna could actually see what Harry was seeing at first, but I was proved wrong, and I hope to be proved wrong again.
Anyways, back to your post. The Prophecy may or may not be fullfilled. I think it will be, but I would not be at all surprised if it wasn't. Harry taking Voldemort with him through the veil began as a fan-fiction that gained popularity. I should know. And I do disagree with that, what it has become...a theory.
Harry may die. Who knows. I think that she really has not hinted at Harry's death. She has stayed relatively tight lipped, despsite the many authors who plead for her to not kill Harry. Fans pesturing her to write more is not a hint by her, rather just something that is inevitable if Harry does live.
There is a line that Jo really shouldn't cross, and that is bringing the dead back to life. Ghosts are fine and all, because they never really....died. Their body decayed, their souls left behind. They are half-dead. That is fine, but bringing someone back through the veil, or even Harry having an adventure through the veil, is something I really do NOT want to see...
With life you have death, with love you have hate. We have seen plenty of all of these in the HP series. Harry has definately seen his share of tragedy and death. First with his parents as a child, then the death of a friend at the hands of Voldemort which further enhanced his hatred of the dark lord. He is capable of loving, which is shown time and time again with his compassion for friends and others.
Without these parallels of each other there really would be no story. There has to be a little bit of everything in the stories in order for them to make sense. Again without life there would be no death, they happen for a reason. Without love there would be no hate. Again HArry has experienced all of these in h]is short life. It has made hima stronger person, with each loss or tragedy, Harry has overcome and made himself stronger. He also suffered loss with the death of Sirius and later in HBP with the loss of Dumbledore. When things like this happens in Harry's life he is extremely saddened by it, but he learns to overcome it and becomes a stronger person
Without these parallels of each other there really would be no story. There has to be a little bit of everything in the stories in order for them to make sense. Again without life there would be no death, they happen for a reason. Without love there would be no hate. Again HArry has experienced all of these in h]is short life. It has made hima stronger person, with each loss or tragedy, Harry has overcome and made himself stronger. He also suffered loss with the death of Sirius and later in HBP with the loss of Dumbledore. When things like this happens in Harry's life he is extremely saddened by it, but he learns to overcome it and becomes a stronger person
If Harry dies, Book 7 will be very emotional and sentimental. I can't see that, I mean... Harry Potter is a romance (sorta), adventure, action novel, not a sentimental novel. There is no point killing the main charactor after about 7 books without a huge gigantic emotional scene, which, to tell the truth, I cannot really imagine (well, I can, but it's... weird. Really, really weird. And off-charactor, too) a huge emotional scene in the Harry Potter series, but you do have some point, and what do I know?
(SUPER NINJA!!!!
)
(SUPER NINJA!!!!
)
I Seriously Hope Harry Does NOT die. But if he does, he and LV will die, throwing the world into a balance. I mean if Harry lives and LV dies, the world will be thrown into a total force of good, and even though im all for good, it would be a really sappy ending. And if Harry Dies and LV lives, the world will be sent into a spiral of darkness, and NO one ends a book like that. If they both die, there will be some good and some evil in the world to keep balance.
Although I want Harry to live I think he will die and hopefully kill kill LV.And I agree with hpangel94 about balance thing.
I`ve been thinking about Harry`s death and "Love room".
Somebody already said that Harry would if he would have to die took as many Death Eaters with him as he can and maybe LV too! It`s conversation between Albus and Harry in HBP. But I think that in that conversation is more important what D said. He said that is matter how we die . And I think it has some deeper meaning witch Harry didn`t understand that time. He(Harry) liked idea that if he has to die that it would be heroic death, but I mean that D knew something more (he always did) but he hadn`t time to told it to Harry. Harry`s sacrifice for, perhaps, Ginny`s life ( he fears for her life and what could LV do to her in HBP) could cause something. Maybe such sacrifice would trigger something and "LOve room" would open. Love or something else in that room would come out and kill LV.
I`ve been thinking about Harry`s death and "Love room".
Somebody already said that Harry would if he would have to die took as many Death Eaters with him as he can and maybe LV too! It`s conversation between Albus and Harry in HBP. But I think that in that conversation is more important what D said. He said that is matter how we die . And I think it has some deeper meaning witch Harry didn`t understand that time. He(Harry) liked idea that if he has to die that it would be heroic death, but I mean that D knew something more (he always did) but he hadn`t time to told it to Harry. Harry`s sacrifice for, perhaps, Ginny`s life ( he fears for her life and what could LV do to her in HBP) could cause something. Maybe such sacrifice would trigger something and "LOve room" would open. Love or something else in that room would come out and kill LV.
QUOTE
With life you have death, with love you have hate.
true, Harry's Life, Lily and James' death...Mothers' love, Snapes' Hate. *sigh* most of the HP do kinda tend to have that sacrificial thing to them, and they also give a sense of real life issues, and doing whats' right, even if it means great sacrifice on your part...I don't know how book 7 will turn out, but I hope that its' all for the best...
does this all mean that harry will die in the love room?? and if the last words really are "harry your scar is gone" then will the potion or whatever it is wash all his imperfections away? However, does this also mean that voldemort will die in the love room too? i find that hard to conceive!
YUppers- this entire series is about love vs. death.
I mean look at it-
Love defeats the killing curse, and makes LV go away for fifteen years,
then he returns
and we find out that he cannot love- he has no close friends
While Harry is willing to die for love for the ones he lost, and if he is to die- he will take LV with him.
I bet that if Harry went up to LV and told him (sincerly) that he loved him and gave him a hug- LV will probably die on the spot. Love killed him once- it will kill him again- but this time... there will be no horcruxes to save him.
I mean look at it-
Love defeats the killing curse, and makes LV go away for fifteen years,
then he returns
and we find out that he cannot love- he has no close friends
While Harry is willing to die for love for the ones he lost, and if he is to die- he will take LV with him.
I bet that if Harry went up to LV and told him (sincerly) that he loved him and gave him a hug- LV will probably die on the spot. Love killed him once- it will kill him again- but this time... there will be no horcruxes to save him.
I think harry will kill voldermort with the help of his friends but will also dicsover that he is a horcrux and will ultimately have to go'behind the veil'. I feel dumbledore knows this aswell and thats why he was constantly preparing him fo that moment. He would sacrifice himself as many of you have said and willingly go behind the veil to be with his loved ones.that will be his way of truly defeating voldermort to willingly go to the 1 thing he fears most.
I think that harry will definetly die..this is a very good thread..i was thinking the exactly same thing...Harry will defeat voldy and he along with ron and hermione (if they survive) will go thru the veil and reunite with his loved ones
QUOTE(therearethree @ May 29 2006, 09:31 PM) [snapback]189265[/snapback]
I would suggest, however, that anyone seeking the identity of Love in the series should look for someone who, unlike Harry, does not demonstrate the weakness of hating certain people with the same desperate passion with which he loves others. No, this One does not hate anyone, because it is completely alien to his nature.
just a thought on this...from what i can see, Dumbledore is the one who loves unconditionally and doesn't hate anyone, and Voldemort is the opposite. they are 2 polar extremes of the forces at war here; love and death. everyone else is at varying degrees in the middle. so just because harry hates, he isnt evil, or impure in anyway. he just isnt perfection. this is probably why dumbledore died: perfection cannot be sustained. as voldemort is perfectly evil, he will also die. to love AND hate is only human. voldemorts whole problem is that he has lost his humanity; dumbledore's problem was that he was too human. in all literature, the one who is too evil AND the one who is too good will die, because it isnt natural, and it upsets the balance. those who are left are merely...human.
anyhoo, back to the question. yes, it is unduobtably about love and death and how the 2 are interlinked. i think shes trying to put across the message that both are human. of course, love is a desirable human trait, whereas death is often not. but by linking the 2, shes just showing us that to be human, you have o succumb to both, and it ISNT a bad thing.
QUOTE
DracosLady
With life you have death, with love you have hate.
Wow this is very deep and very true!! I would have never thought of it that way. Everyone who lives dies, and everyone who loves also hates! With life you have death, with love you have hate.
Of course this series is all about love and death!
A lot of people that Harry loved have been killed, and I doubt that this is the end of any of them dying! I don't want Harry to die though, he has had too much suffering and deserves a chance to live and love like a 'normal' person. (well as normal as a wizard's life can be!) 
Although I think that if it has to be done, I will accept Harry's death! I believe that if JKR decides to kill off Harry, then she would definetely kill off LV too! She most likely wouldn't want LV to go on killing everyone, and no one stop him! I hope that if Harry dies, then it will be his own choice, and it will be him going through the veil! 
*Breanna*
I truly think Harry will live
He will destroy Voldermort with help from the portrait of Dumbledore.
There is a lot of talk about the balance of good and evil
Mentioning that Voldermort and Harry would both have to die to retain the balance
I do not believe this.
We have seen this recently in the muggle world
Just need to think of Iraq
The person in charge of the evil regime was Sadam Hussain.
Sudam Hussain is now dead but supporters of his regime. Still continue to kill both Iraqui and British/American troops etc.
I am not want to get into discussion about this but just mentioning it as an example
What I am trying to show is that you can take away the dictator but there is always someone there to take over.
I believe in the deathly Hollows that the final battle is the concluding one between Harry and Voldermort and not the last battle in the war against evil.
Again the Iraqui war continues without the dictator
I think Harry will get a chance to speak to people behind the veil but I think he will have a rich and fulfilled life. Knowing that one day he will meet up with the people he loved dearly but he has a lifetime of living and loving in this world first
Soppy it may be but this would be my happy ending
He will destroy Voldermort with help from the portrait of Dumbledore.
There is a lot of talk about the balance of good and evil
Mentioning that Voldermort and Harry would both have to die to retain the balance
I do not believe this.
We have seen this recently in the muggle world
Just need to think of Iraq
The person in charge of the evil regime was Sadam Hussain.
Sudam Hussain is now dead but supporters of his regime. Still continue to kill both Iraqui and British/American troops etc.
I am not want to get into discussion about this but just mentioning it as an example
What I am trying to show is that you can take away the dictator but there is always someone there to take over.
I believe in the deathly Hollows that the final battle is the concluding one between Harry and Voldermort and not the last battle in the war against evil.
Again the Iraqui war continues without the dictator
I think Harry will get a chance to speak to people behind the veil but I think he will have a rich and fulfilled life. Knowing that one day he will meet up with the people he loved dearly but he has a lifetime of living and loving in this world first
Soppy it may be but this would be my happy ending
This is a very interesting topic. Yes, this story is undoubtably about life: Life/Death, Love/Hate, Friend/Enemy, etc.... Though I really think Harry will live. The balance as it is now is upset, Dubledore is dead, he is the extreme good in the balance, Lord Voldemort is alive, he is the extreme evil in the balance. Harry is the balance of both, he has been mentored by Dumbledore, his life has been touched by Voldemort. Once Voldemort is dead, the larger balance of the Wizarding world is restored, there will be "minor" good people, as well as "minor" evil people, but the balance will be complete. That is the quirky thing about Harry, he is human enough to understand by all, niether purely good, nor is he completely evil.
does anyone think voldy should die in the love room?
QUOTE(hpangel94 @ Jan 16 2007, 09:20 PM) [snapback]304902[/snapback]
I Seriously Hope Harry Does NOT die. But if he does, he and LV will die, throwing the world into a balance. I mean if Harry lives and LV dies, the world will be thrown into a total force of good, and even though im all for good, it would be a really sappy ending. And if Harry Dies and LV lives, the world will be sent into a spiral of darkness, and NO one ends a book like that. If they both die, there will be some good and some evil in the world to keep balance.
i dont think harry will die for that reason. the book will most likely end on a balance as all books do. for this to happen, its not harry, but dumbledore and voldemort that have to die; dumbledore is the ultimate good, and voldemort is the ultimate evil. for either to have carried on living would upset the balance. harry, though essentially good, is an ordinary human with all the flaws that come with it. he doesnt upset any balance. also, dumbledore is very much like shakespeare's 'tragic hero'; he is exceptional in his abilities and upsets the natural balance by being so, but he has a fatal flaw which is his downfall- trusting too much. so i think dumbledore will stay dead, voldemort will die, and harry will live. however, will be a difference in dumbledores and voldemorts deaths; either in how they die, or where they go.
Im not sure whether I think Harry will live or die yet, I havent quite made up my mind on that matter, but I do believe that this series is based on love and death.
The whole plot of the story in the first few books revolves around Lily saving Harry by sacrificing herself and giving him the protection of love...thats how Harry defeats LV the first two times (as a baby and in Sorcerer's Stone)....then in OOTP, Harry makes LV stop possesing him by thinking of Sirius (whom he loves)...
My theory is that Harry will defeat LV (whether he lives or dies himself) by using the love he feels for all of his friends and family...since its the emotion that LV underestimates the most
The whole plot of the story in the first few books revolves around Lily saving Harry by sacrificing herself and giving him the protection of love...thats how Harry defeats LV the first two times (as a baby and in Sorcerer's Stone)....then in OOTP, Harry makes LV stop possesing him by thinking of Sirius (whom he loves)...
My theory is that Harry will defeat LV (whether he lives or dies himself) by using the love he feels for all of his friends and family...since its the emotion that LV underestimates the most
I do believe the series is about love. Not just love but unconditional love. I don't think death is a theme so much as a way to show that over coming hardship is worth it if you can love someone. We all die so in a sense it everything is about death, but I think this is about being able to love someone so much more then yourself. I think it is about being strong enough to handle the hard things that come your way even though other people might not think you can. I think you have to look beyond the characters themselves to see what the point is. Not that everyone that Harry loves dies, but that Harry still has the desire for good to overcome the evil.
To be honest I dont think Harry dies. I say this because and forgive me if some of you have said this before. but at the beginning or near the very start of PS/SS JKR writes that "In years to come Harry would never forget". Now this may be a long shot but I think this implies that Harry doesnt die but actually gets another one over on LV.
However I think Neville dies avenging his parents death sorry to any neville fans.
However I think Neville dies avenging his parents death sorry to any neville fans.
Just read the Last Book, The Deathly Hallows,
Phew, Got That Off My Chest
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Phew, Got That Off My Chest
I have just read the thread and I must say that Capricorn or whoever wrote the 1st reply is BRILLIANT!!
actually,Dumbledore is the person who has found the profound relation between Love and Life..Love makes Life more full,so more bearable.However,its Love again that bestows protection for the Loved ones so that they may Live.This Love can make people brave even in the face of Death,makes people Die for the Loved one to Live!So that s all the Power of Love!Death is but a lovely friend,with whom the Brave go away happily....The ones who are afraid of Death are those who do not have the mental strength to Love.So Death is nothing to be scared of,as Sirius says to Harry:
Because of Love,Harry lives on while Voldemort dies.Harry,strong within,has prepared himself to die for
Rowling's Power of Love theory meets a beautiful end here...!
actually,Dumbledore is the person who has found the profound relation between Love and Life..Love makes Life more full,so more bearable.However,its Love again that bestows protection for the Loved ones so that they may Live.This Love can make people brave even in the face of Death,makes people Die for the Loved one to Live!So that s all the Power of Love!Death is but a lovely friend,with whom the Brave go away happily....The ones who are afraid of Death are those who do not have the mental strength to Love.So Death is nothing to be scared of,as Sirius says to Harry:
QUOTE
Does it hurt?
Not at all,more quick and easy than sleeping!
Not at all,more quick and easy than sleeping!
Because of Love,Harry lives on while Voldemort dies.Harry,strong within,has prepared himself to die for
QUOTE
The Greater Good
...so even when Voldemort casts an Avada Kedavra,he lives on.....Rowling's Power of Love theory meets a beautiful end here...!
QUOTE
The ones who are afraid of Death are those who do not have the mental strength to Love.
Yes, I agree with you swagata, Harry has the ability to love, and this is the greatest power towards LV. LV could never accept death, he always feared it, and he tried to avoid it as well, when he created his horcruxes. He could never understand why should he die, he, The Dark Lord. He was never able to think about others, not love, just only deal with them, in his mind was nobody else, besides him.
Well, yes, love and death play a huge part in the Harry Potter series, but it's not all revolved around two subjects. Yes, I think that in JKR's series love has the power to overcome death, but that isn't what the whole story is about. There's so much more that comes to the story than plainly love and death.
The story is told in an incredibly interesting,yet creative way and what do you think the moral is in the end? There's a lot to HP that we don't know about and we can only guess why people think of love and death as the main part of the HP stories. JKR enabled us to dive into a world where we can imagine and feel like we're part of something so magical and amazing. After you have felt the excitement, hate, happiness, fear, joy, confusion and lonliness that Harry has felt, you know you have become part of it all, and it's not just about love and death or defeating death, it's about friendship,family,togetherness,the power of love and the power of death.
Love and death aren't just two words that come up in the story. They have a meaning and different aspects to them; some see them, others don't.
xx
arianna
The story is told in an incredibly interesting,yet creative way and what do you think the moral is in the end? There's a lot to HP that we don't know about and we can only guess why people think of love and death as the main part of the HP stories. JKR enabled us to dive into a world where we can imagine and feel like we're part of something so magical and amazing. After you have felt the excitement, hate, happiness, fear, joy, confusion and lonliness that Harry has felt, you know you have become part of it all, and it's not just about love and death or defeating death, it's about friendship,family,togetherness,the power of love and the power of death.
Love and death aren't just two words that come up in the story. They have a meaning and different aspects to them; some see them, others don't.
xx
arianna
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