I know this has been mentioned and toyed about with to a certain degree for a while now, but I personally am beginning to really think there is something in this and I'd love to see what you guys have to say on the issue

The thing is, during my painting episode yesterday (it's a big fence...that's a *lot* of time to think ) I came across something else that I thought could be construed as evidence not only to Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore (in a roundabout way) but also, and perhaps more importantly for the purposes of this thread, to the real nature of the connection between Snape, the Marauders and Lily.

Remember that throughout HBP, Slughorn keeps referring to his little clubs that he had going on when he used to be a teacher at Hogwarts, and several times he mentions not only how good Snape was, but also how good Lily was. I think it's reasonable to conclude that Snape and Lily must have been present in some of these meetings together. Whether the rest of the Marauders were is up for debate, but I personally think it's unlikely, being the trouble-makers they were. It's possible that James might have been, being a Quidditch captain, but anyway...the point is that at several times in HBP, we have Lily and Snape being considered together. I think that it's very likely, during those times, when Snape developed feelings - very strong feelings - for Lily.

In 'The Seer Overheard', Harry is, quite rightly, very angry and finding out the truth about the Prophecy and Snape's hand in Voldemort finding out about it. Dumbledore allows him to vent and then says...

As usual, Louise, your points on the subject echo my thoughts in pretty much every aspect. Spooky, really...

I went back and re-read (again) the very part you quoted and, as upon my other reads of same, my interpretation remains that which you have provided here. I can't think of any other reason for Snape to return to the fold, certainly none which would both make sense within the context of the story we've seen so far and within the thematic framework of the story, either.

Obviously, we have seen that Snape is not overly fond of Harry, a fact that may be due to the latter's resemblance to his late father. But Snape did watch over Harry when Quirrell was hexing him, whom he had to know was under Voldemort's control (or at the very least suspected it...). It's almost as if Snape tries to punish Harry's James'like behaviours throughout, but in the end tries to protect him...

I definitely think there will be some kind of Snape-Lilly link in book 7, one a lot closer to what we are postulating here than we might think. I guess we have to wait and see, however. JKR may have a few surprises in store for us...

I would never have thought of this theory on my own (I'm not that smart) but as soon as I did hear it I thought pur-lease, that's so unlikely, Snape in love with Lily, ha! But, and it's a big but, the more I read about it the more it grows on me. I recently re-read OotP and I agree that the sentence 'Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make his mind up about something. At last he said...' really jumped out at me. I don't think Dumbledore really did tell Harry everything (like he promised he was finally going to). At first I didn't have a clue what it was that DD was hiding but the more I consider it the more I think it has something to do with Snape and Lily. I have a few theories about why DD decided to keep this information from Harry but I don't think this is really the place for them.

Basically, at this time, I can neither find nor think of a better theory that explains why Dumbledores complete trust in Snape could be based on the fact that Snape caused the Potters murder other than he had some kind of amazingly strong bond with one of them, and I don't think it's James; even though he did save Snapes life, I just don't think that's a strong enough reason.

Oh I don't ship Lily/Snape or anything like that...heaven forbid!! No, I didn't like the idea either because I thought it was kind of cheesy - all this love floating around like a park in San Francisco during the sixties...ewww....

But I do think that the canon seems to be pointing that way now. Remember the Pensieve scene, Snape's Worst Memory? I don't think his worst memory was the humiliation he suffered - surely he'd have been humiliated before then by the Marauders. I think it's because Lily turned on him for whatever reason...I think he was hurt, and he lashed out by calling her a Mudblood. Whatever preceeded those events, I think it's safe to say that Lily and Snape probably never bothered with each other again much after that. It doesn't stop Snape still feeling something for her though

Aas usual, Louise, you hit the nail on the head. The "worst" part of Snape's memory, as seen in the pensieve, was the rejection/betrayal he felt, manifested, as you pointed out, in his lashing out against her and calling her a mudblood.

We know that Lily and Snape were brilliant at Potions, Slughorn having made a point of telling us over and over about it in HBP, and we also know they were part of the Slug Club. So they obviously had ample opportunity to interact there. Couple this with the hints about Lily being the kindest, gentlest person ever (as supplied by Lupin, Sirius, and pretty well everyone who ever speaks of her...) and with Snape's being the target of the Marauders' pramks and you definitely have potential for Lily trying to be a friend to someone she sees as needing one. It would be very easy for an outcast like Snape to fall for someone that pretty, someone who he perhaps considers an equal, and someone who finally shows him kindness. Snape's pride would definitely have made him feel like Lily had befriended him out of pity, something he would never accept. They probably never associated after that, but Snape could very well have had feelings for Lily that he carried with him years after, feelings that may have been brought back up to full strength after Voldemort assassinated the Potters, prompting Snape to come to Dumbledore...

Such an interesting avenue, this...

Snape/Lily Theory! The only theory i've ever clung too!

About Snapes worse memory, I think DD says, well implies, in GoF that the memory that Harry had fallen into was one that DD had recently viewed, yes? Or I'm i wrong.

If i'm right, and Harry falls through a recently viewed memory... why was Snape looking at it? I don't know about you, but my worse memories, i try and push them out and forget about them, never to be 'viewed' again. So i was thinking, he was humiliated by the Marauders yes, but Lily also came to his rescue, so that could be a good thing, of course he feels bad about what he said to her.

Marc, yes, I've always wondered why Snape keeps a particulary close eye on Harry. It's always been a small thought in my mind that Snape actually cares a little about Harry. I thought that the reason why Snape makes such an effort for Harry to hate him is to keep his thoughts on the here and now. This is really hard to explain. Basically, so that Harry can have something to keep his feet on the ground, to make Harry realise he's not perfect, to make him think twice before his actions... We know that Snape does this any way, but i thought maybe due to some twisted caring way.

Does that make sense?

That would make perfect sense. It could also be that Snape is trying to make sure that Harry is honed into a top-notch wizard by constantly hammering on him, akin to the "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger idea." Perhaps he wants Harry to be prepared for whatever is to come so that what little piece of Lily is left can be around for a while longer?

Lord knows people express affection in some strange ways sometime...

I have a quick question. Is the overall concensus that Snape knew, and accepted, that he liked Lily, and possibly even let others knew. Or is it more, he liked her but tried to deny his feelings for her, as she is muggle born and he seems to have a real problem with that. In other words, if Snape liked Lily at all, did he admitt to himself that he liked Lily? or was he in denial?

Yes Marc, that's it exactly, trying to teach him that he won't be protected and loved by everyone on their side, and to use things like that to your advantage i'm a bit more coherent about my thoughts today

I think what i was also trying to say in my last post, (i was getting all frazzled, i had these thoughts that didn't have words to them yet ) that Snape Doesn't expect Harry to save the world, doesn't expect him to completely suceed in his quest to kill Voldemort. This may sound like he's being mean (Harry probably thinks so as well) but if Harry fails, everyones going to be disappointed in him, think him a failer. While Snape won't, because he didn't expect him to do it in the first place, he's oppinion won't have changed. And if Harry does fail, I think that that will mean a lot to him. Unless he dies... but you never know! (i know some people are analysing the prophecy differently as life and death, plus Snape doesn't know that part of the prophecy.)

But Yes, I think that Snape is trying to protect Harry (in this twisted kind of way) because he feels as though he failed to protect Lily. We already know that Snape will repay his debt (he saved Harry's life in PS/SS because James saved his.)

However, (ooh just thought of this!) Snape told DD that LV was after the Potters including James, if Snape hated James that much, wouldn't he think that his debt had already been repaid by giving DD that information and therefore saving James' life. It wasn't Snapes fault that the secret keeper was a traitor and that resulted in James death. The information that Snape gave to the order was meant to save James's life, and it would have done if Wormtail hadn't been the secretkeeper, and you can't blame Snape for that.

What I'm trying to say is that Maybe Snape saved Harry's life in PS/SS because he was Lily's son, and had nothing to do with the life debt that Snape had on his father, because in Snapes eyes it had already been repaid.

Nimbus? I'm absolutely convinced that Snape loved her, or at least had some feelings for her, or they were friends in some way. I don't like the idea of them actually going out, even though it's good for fan ficton I just don't see Snape doing something like that. But to answer your question ? No I think he kept them secret, but told DD that he loved her when he was telling him the information about LV going after the potters, you know when he was all upset, and things like that com out when you're upset.

Trust me, any unrequainted love secrets that you're keeping from any friends or family come out when you're upset about it... believe me 'Helen why are you crying?'
'Mum... I just say Ben kissing my friend, and then she told him that I loved him... My life is ruined!! Ben will never want to be my friend again!! Waaaa!'

Trust me.... that happened!! I know sorry....

Don't worry, Ygraine, most days I work myself up into these great big convoluted theories in me head, only to fail miserably at explaining them coherently to anyone. It happens...

I like your idea about Snape passing on the information about Voldemort seeking the Potters to the Order in order to repay his debt to James. You are quite correct in pointing out that it wasn't his fault that Wormtail was a traitor. Allow me a quick off topic sidebar on the issue.

I think that part of the reason Snape was so bitter was exactly because his attempt at repaying his debt to James was foiled by Wormtail's betrayal of the Potters. Add to this the fact that Lily was also a victim and now you have a very strong motivator for Snape wanting to protect Harry along the lines we are postulating here.

I think your closing anecdote of unrequited love is pretty well exactly what Snape was going through with Lily. He may have broached the subject with her at some point and been gently turned down, but that's way outside of anything we have been presented so far.

I'm off to get some work done now...

Yes, i would be rather bitter, if i risked my life getting information to save someones life and they used a friend to be the secret keeper when they knew a traitor was amoungst them! Still, it's not James's fault exactly, and definately not Harrys'.

Except, now a different thought on the matter. Snape protect Harry, because as Lily's son Snape feels as though he had to. But doesn't like him. Not because he is James Potters son. But if he hadn't been born. Voldemort would have had no reason to kill Lily.

Yes I know that LV saw that Lily was very powerful, but he was going to let her live, and there must be a reason for that, a reason that we don't know. Maybe Snape knows why. And feels as though, if Harry weren't around (or had died that day) yes, LV would still be there, but so would Lily. And Snape might feel rather bitter about that.

Interesting point, that. One that would definitely colour Snape's view of Harry. Combining Snape's feelings for Lily with his feelings that Harry is somehow responsible, albeit indirectly, for her detah could bring about some very interesting motivations indeed!

I'd like to add that I don't think it was a coincedence that, in Snape's worst memory, James uses the levicorpus spell on him. It was a spell that we know he invented, or at least that is what it appears to be. I have a feeling that the use of that particular spell revealed that Lilly shared some of Snape's HBP secrets with the marauders and that was what was particularly disturbing to Snape. My theory is that, after some time convincing him that she was his friend, he entrusted her with his potions book. He loved her. She felt bad for the way he was treated and tried to be his friend only. James stole information from the book without her knowledge and tortured Snape with his own spell. I think that Snape figured that she had betrayed him and that her friendship was just a cover to torment him further. I think it makes sense with what we know about each of their personalities.

Intresting point Vulture, very intresting, a bit complicated. I always thought that the reason why James knew about Levicorpus was because Snape used it on him...

I could be wrong of course!

I was re-reading the Occulemncy chapter in the fifth book, cos it makes me smile. And i worked out why 'Snapes worse memory' was in the pensieve. Harrys first session with Snape, snape takes memories and puts them in the pensieve, and my realisation was that Snape is pulling them from his brain because he doesn't want Harry to see it. When Harry repels Snape that one time he sees inside Snapes thoughts and memory. if the memory wasn't there, Harry cant see it.

Oh an I found this it's about Snape falling in love...

'Who on earth would like Snape in love with them?'

Um... I would!

Oh I heard that piece after a horrid horrid day, and i cried of happiness. I really really did!

This just comfirmed my feelings that Snape was in love with Lily

Yeah, I'm coming back around to this idea again since I've switched back to the Defence...again

I'm just making sure that I have all bases covered so when the book eventually comes out, I've jumped sides so often that I won't look like a prat and I can pretend that I knew the truth all along

*ahem*

Anyway...nice idea, vulturemort. I don't think it was a coincidence that James used that particular spell either. Though I also take Ygraine's point, and that's the way I interpreted it too. I think that when Harry found out about that spell, it was just a clue within HBP that pointed towards the HBP being Snape. Actually, that's one thing that I'm proud to say I had figured out from the start...for once!! Anyway, the point is that there are two possibilities. Either Snape invented that spell and James somehow got hold of it, or James used it and Snape tried to figure out how he did it. Judging from Snape's reaction at the end of HBP, I would say that the former was more likely the case - he claimed credit for it and we have no reason to believe that it was a false claim. We all know Snape liked inventing spells - the book proves that he was an intelligent and sharp wizard. Which means that somehow, James found out about that spell. Either he somehow got hold of the book or someone close to Snape told James about it. I don't think it's a huge leap to conclude that it was Lily, given that we know they were both good at Potions and Slughorn's favourites.

So yes, good point, vulturemort. Snape definitely did not want Harry to see that memory because it was humiliating for him. He didn't want Harry to see him vulnerable, and that's perfectly understandable. As was his anger later and refusal to teach him Occlumancy anymore. It's obviously still very painful for him, and I don't think it's just James' humilation. I think it's Lily's betrayal - that's something that *would* have the ability to be just as powerful years later. Childhood grudges go - hurtful betrayals by friends don't.

Has anybody found anywhere in any of the books where Snape says something bad about Lilly herself?

He often derides James specifically, but does he ever say something negative about Lilly alone?

Not to the best of my recollection. I don't think he's ever commented on her at all actually, outside of the Worst Memory where, of course, he referred to her as a Mudblood. Personally, I think he did it because he was hurt and he wanted to lash out in the most vicious way he could - somehow, I don't really think he meant it. Though if Lily is supposedly this practically-angelic person, it seems kind of out of character for her to join in the bullying. But then maybe she felt he deserved it after calling her names.

Mmm....betraying a friends trust and calling someone names....mmm....don't quite balance out on the scales of justice, do they?

Argh....I just really dislike James and Lily. I always have done. They've both always seemed like a pair of stuck up, arrogant, self absorbed prats to me. And the parallels with Harry/Ginny just make me want to vomit if this is what great romance is supposed to be. Snape was way too good for her anyway

Poor guy....imagine wasting his time lusting after someone who can turn on you like that?

This is the thing, see....I think that Snape did have a thing for her - I just don't like it. Not one bit. I hope I'm wrong about it, to be honest. I'm very willing to be talked around

(BTW, bajab, I'm afraid I've joined the defence again...did you notice? )

Hmmm... Snape's worst memory...

Well, originally I thought that that particular memory was in the pensieve because Snape was viewing it... as in, over and over and over again. That was my original reason for liking the Snape-loved-Lily theory. I felt that Snape was agonizing over it. However, as Ygraine pointed out, it appears to be much simpler than that:


So, once again, it appears I was reading too much into that particular paragraph of the book.

Now, onto Vulturemort's post (and I have come to absolutely adore his theories, because they are usually very good! )



Love this theory! That is exactly what I have come to think happened! I think that Lily and Snape got to know each other through Slughorn's little parties (he seemed extremely fond of the both of them, and it would stand to reason that he would invite them to his parties to suck up to potential future-successes), and probably also got to know each other during potions classes with Slughorn. They probably became close enough that Snape even shared his levicorpus spell with Lily. I think that they probably became very good friends, and grew to love each other in a friendly way. Only, I think that Snape developed romantic feelings for Lily, whereas Lily loved Snape only as a friend. I think it is very possible that, although she played like she hated James, she actually had a school-girl crush on him (wouldn't you?), and possibly let the levicorpus thing slip to James.

Now, James, seeing how Lily and Snape were becoming such good friends, became jealous of Snape's close relationship with his crush, Lily. This caused James to loathe Snape, and he probably felt a need to show Lily how much better he was than Snape. (Notice how in Snape's Worst Memory, Lily asks James what Snape has ever done to him. James replies that it is enough that Snape exists... He can't say the real reason, which would be that he himself is in love with Lily, and is consequently jealous of Snape. When Snape's original spell is used against him by James, he knows immediately that it must have been Lily who told him (because who else knew?). I'm sure he felt betrayed and hurt. So what do you do when you have been betrayed and hurt by someone you loved? You lash out! That is why he called her a mudblood. He didn't really hate her, he just said it because he was hurt.

I'm sure after that incident, everything else just fell into place. Snape was to proud and afraid of rejection to apologize to Lily and tell her how he really felt. Lily, being very much like Ginny, was too proud herself to give in and initiate a conversation with Snape (not to mention, she was surely hurt herself, having a good friend insult her like that). Ofcourse, once Lily and James got together, Snape despised James for being with the woman he loved. (It is almost like a contest. James won, Snape lost... wouldn't you be angry with a prize like that?)

This would very much explain Snape's behavior towards Harry. On the one hand, he despises Harry for looking so much like James, the man he's hated for so long. On the other, whenever it comes down to the choice of allowing Harry to die (which would be easy), or saving Harry's life (not-so-easy), he chooses to save Harry. Could this be because he is the son of the woman he once loved? I sure think so...

This would also explain why LV, who has no compassion and/or love for anyone at all, gave Lily the choice of living or dying at Godric's Hollow:

I think that when Snape did eventually find out who LV was going to kill, he asked that Lily be spared. I'm sure he did it in a crafty way, making it sound like he didn't love her or anything, but, nonetheless, I think he asked LV not to kill her. When LV did kill her, Snape was crushed. He never meant for Lily to die. I believe this is why DD tells Harry that Snape giving LV the info on the prophecy was Snape's "greatest regret", and "the reason he turned [back to the order from the Dark side]".

Ok sorry that was so long, but I have been dying to contribute to this discussion since I first started reading it!

Hey Lily Welcome to the discussion!

I'd forgotten about that last quote there from the interview. Crikey, if I had remembered it, I'd have used it myself!! Yes, it certainly does point towards Voldemort sparing her for a reason, doesn't it? I still say that I'm not sure Voldemort would do anyone a favour like that, but I suppose that he *could* do someone a favour if that person, in his eyes, had brought him information that was valuable enough. The prophecy would certainly qualify as that.

But then, if this is true, then it means he lied to Dumbledore, because Dumbledore believes that Snape didn't know Voldemort would go after the Potters that night. If Snape did know, then the story of remorse he told Dumbledore was a lie - or at least, the real reason for his turnaround was a lie.

So where does that leave the Snape is innocent theory?

Oh dear.... I'm confused....

hmm.... I always thought that Snape went to Dumbledore before LV killed the Potters. In GoF, in the Pensieve, Dumbledore tells the court that Snape turned back to to the 'light' before Voldemorts downfall and was spying for them. Also in PoV, Fudge says that DD had many spies and one told him that Voldemort was after the Potters. Even though it's not official I always thought that that was snape.

If JK means that Snape turned back to the light because Lily died after voldemort fell, than, i smell Continuity error Of course more could be revealed in the seventh book about that

About Voldemort not wanting to kill Lily, I've never really thought about Snape asking LV to spare her before. If this was the case, (although a very intresting theory) why was Snape still with LV in HBP? As I've already mentioned, I think that Snape went to Dumbledore with the information (perhaps on LV's orders in Snape was still a DE) if Snape asked to LV not to kill Lily because she needn't die, than Snape being with LV in HBP as we know, she died.

There's a Snape is innocent theory for you Louise, that fits it.

But I don't think that Voldemort would consider a request like that, and I don't think Snape would have asked it personally, I think he was very secretive about his feelings toward Lily. The reason why i think Voldemort Spared her is something that Hagrid said in PS/SS... but that's a different topic

Ooh no! You can't leave it like that now! Go on, I give you permission to drift slightly off topic by giving us a plausible alternative to why Voldemort may have spared her, because it does have a huge bearing not only on the current debate, but also on the Snape trial.

As I mentioned, I'm not sure I buy that Snape asked LV to spare Lily theory because, as you say, I do smell a slight continuity error there myself if that's the case. If Snape returned to Dumbledore AFTER he told Voldemort the prophecy but BEFORE he killed the Potters, then he couldn't possibly have asked LV to spare Lily. If, however, he returned to Dumbledore on LV's order, in full knowledge of what LV intended to do, then that means he lied to Dumbledore about his reason for returning, possibly spinning the story about Lily to give it a grain of emotional texture that Dumbledore would believe - especially if Dumbledore suspected that somewhere along the line, Snape did have feelings for her.

OMG, something's just hit me about something I said up there...spinning a story...Spinner's End...crikey, that's not a bit of an in-joke/hint that Snape is 'spinning' Bella and Narcissa a story, is it? Why did JKR pick that name, I wonder? Oooh....now there's something I hadn't considered before....mmm.... Ah, but then it's Spinner's END...as in the end of the story? Meaning that this isn't a story, whilst everything else Snape has said is? Oh, my head hurts from all this over-analysing...

Could it be possible that Snape's original reason for going to Dumbledore was the fear that something might happen to Lilly? He could have found out that they were the target and decided that the best way to protect them was to go to Dumbledore. He probably couldn't go to James and Lilly directly because I don't think they would ever trust him. I personally think that Snape opened up all of his memories to Dumbledore to view in order to earn his trust. That, along with the fact that he loved Lilly, which would be backed up by the memories, would be solid evidence for Dumbledore.

At the same time, he could have come up with some reason to spare Lilly, just in case Voldemort found them. Maybe Dumbledore coached him on this. Perhaps Snape fed Voldemort some sort of story about her possibly being willing to switch sides. I personally don't believe Voldemort would do anything that wasn't advantageous to him. I could see him sparing a very talented witch or wizard if he believed they would join him.

If it worked this way, there wouldn't be any continuity errors. It's a bit complex, but it could be explained by Snape. We certainly have seen some long exposition pieces in the past 6 books (the endings of each book have basically an entire chapter long explanation by Dumbledore.

Mmm...yeah, I actually read something similar on one of the LiveJournals I was wandering around yesterday. Someone there mentioned that Snape is the only one left capable of doing the mammoth, Dumbledore-ian summing up at the end of each book. He's the only one who knows everything, good and bad, who was there at the start and knows exactly what he told Dumbledore. There's just no one else left...well...possibly Lupin, I guess...but then I'm not sure he's going to make it through book 7 (sorry, fellow SPELL'ers)

Short of pensieves and memories, I don't know how else we're going to find out everything we need (or maybe would like) to know.

But I can't fault your logic - I don't think Voldemort would spare anyone simply because he was asked to do so. It just doesn't fit with his character - but you're right about if someone proposed something to him, like Lily possibly being a huge asset to the DE's then that gives Voldemort something to gain, making him more likely to consider it.

I don't know though...that continuity thing still bothers me. I can see what you're saying, and it is very logical that Snape would go to Dumbledore before he went to James. I really hope we do find out more about what went on between Dumbledore and Snape though - there's so much left there that's unexplained, and the real reason for the trust is one of them. But still, it implicitly suggests that Snape knew Voldemort intended to go after Lily...

But perhaps, at the time he told Voldemort, he had no idea...but then Voldemort realises who the 'thrice defied him' people are and mentions it to Snape. Snape is horrified, and is desperate to stop him, but is unable to do so himself...so, he goes to Dumbledore with his story. He *then* tells Dumbledore that he had no way of knowing who Voldemort would target *at the actual time he told him*...that would make more sense, wouldn't it?

What did I say? LOVE your theories Vulturemort! I was reading what people put after my last post, about Snape switching sides before the Potters' deaths, trying to figure out in my head what would be the most plausible explanation for that variance in time, and then, *poof*, your post. I think this is probably one of the best ideas I have heard yet on the Snape-is-innocent front. He absolutely could have found out about LV going after the Potters, and gone to DD for help (and to switch sides). This would definitely be a great reason for DD to trust Snape. Death eaters don't care about friends and other people, they only care about themselves and LV's return to power! If Snape went to DD to ask for help for his old friend Lily, then DD surely would have taken him seriously when Snape told him he wanted to switch sides!

Nice one, Vulturemort

Really? Ok... In PS/SS Hagrid says that it's a mystery why Voldemort never tried to get Lily and James on their side. The prophecy says that they defied him 3 times. Never said anything about fighting the Dark Lord. We don't know what happened when they met, I think that LV tried his upmost to get Lily on his side, I think that he had a fondness for her and well... liked her. So he genuinely didn't want to kill her, because he saw her power.

Anyway



Hmm.... maybe in the middle, at wand point. I dunno. I've had this thought since GoF of Snape dying to save Harry's life. I know, i love him too, but i think it's the way he's going to go, because he loves Lily

Are you converted now Louise?

That really is brilliant! Of course - he would have targeted them, and 'defied' is such a well chosen word then... It could mean so many of things! I think that what Hagrid said about the whole business is very important, and definitely worth a reread for me. It is, officially, the first time Harry hears about the wizarding world, Harry's parents and Voldemort. It serves as a base on top of which all our other information is stacked.



Here I disagree. Snape I can understand (believe more like), but Voldemort? I don't think he has ever liked someone, in any possible off-hand way. He might have liked her power, definitely, but that would rather serve as a reason to kill her, especially after not converting to his side. If someone dared to defy him thrice I can't imagine him still wanting their loyalty. He's too much of an arrogant *thingy*. She was everything he hated - a courageous woman (unlike his mother) and muggleborn. He just wouldn't haved suffered it.



That is very true. No other character has enough - depth? As far as character development goes anyway. Maybe that is why we can believe he loved someone. He has the same mysterious aura as Dumbledore. Jo has actually highlighted this by saying things like he seemed to be able to read minds. That was before we knew he really could, but my point is, throughout the whole series, we always knew that there was more to Severus Snape than meets the eye. Love is definitely not that far fetched. Anyway, Captain Obvious is done now...



That is a good explanation... what's the question again, because this makes perfect sense. Oh wait, right - Lily.



I find this hard to believe. Not that there is fault with the logic, of course, but Voldemort doesn't seem the type of person who'd take his servants seriously on something like this(especially if they were bright and a threat to his authority - power is everything with him). In this case, with Lily and James having defied him thrice, I can't imagine he would be gullible enough to believe there was a possibility of Lily switching sides. The Potters were Dumbledore's people through and through - he had to be really thick if he hadn't noticed it by then... (my tenses are on holiday and it's really getting to me, so I'll stop soon).

I don't know, maybe Snape hasn't got anything to do with Voldemort having been prepared to save Lily. It is tantalising and it feels right, I know, but it sort of compromises Voldemort's power and authority - which is still supposed to be in tact. He wouldn't be as scary if he was as gullible as that.

Ah, I'm feeling confunded. I just can't get my head around this...

Well said, Capricorn. I agree with you there. I don't think LV had any intention of trying to convert Lily and James to his side. They were quite obviously (and openly) on Dumbledore's side. Ofcourse, you will hear the argument for Snape pretending to be on Dumbledore's side, too... But, we need to remember, he wasn't always on Dumbledore's side. He was, in fact, a full-fledged death eater, up until he (arguably) joined with DD.

I would imagine they thrice defied him by escaping him (or his death eaters), as did the Longbottoms. In which case, there would have to be some other reason for LV offering to let Lily live. I believe that Snape found a good reason to keep her alive, and told LV that reason. However, in reality, I believe Snape wanted her to live because he was once in love with her (you can check out that theory in totality here).

You think? Hmm... What can I say! I'm a girl who loves a bit of grey That's why I love Snape so much, all this 'grey' about him, so angsty! Lol.

I must admit, 'Defied' is screaming at me, not fighting...

dictionary definition 1.
1. To oppose or resist with boldness and assurance: defied the blockade by sailing straight through it.
2. To refuse to submit to or cooperate with: defied the court order by leaving the country.
2. To be unaffected by; resist or withstand: “So the plague defied all medicines” (Daniel Defoe).
3. To challenge or dare (someone) to do something: She defied her accusers to prove their charges.

Which to me at least says that there was no fighting with Voldemort with James and Lily, they were supposedly very powerful wizards, I do think that LV would want to try and lure them to his side, even if there was little hope in suceeding. In fact I think the only reason why Harry hasn't been his target for 'employment' is because LV believes too much in the prophecy, and Hermione because she is Harry's friend, plus they have never met.


Anyway.... I'm not here to discuss the ins and outs of the prophecy, sorry guys!

Another theory, i read... somewhere, I think it was in a fanfiction actually... anyway, Snape was half blood and lived (well, the book makes me think so any way) in a muggle area. I read once that Snape and Lily actually lived near each other and knew each other before they went to Hogwarts, before Snape became all 'Slytherin are the best, must be pureblood, yada yada yada...' and he didn't know that Lily was a witch. So they knew each other and saw each other in the holidays. It's not something I've personally ever looked too much into. But I thought i'd bring it the the discussion, as it's intresting and plausiable.

Another theory that I've just thought of is that perhaps they're related through their muggle relations.. Then again, maybe not

Well, I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one
I am not sure whether James and Lily physically fought LV (my guess is that they didn't because they probably would have died), but they (along with the whole order) were defying him all along. They refused to give in to his power, challenged his reign of terror over the wizarding world, and remained unaffected by the temptations of the Dark side of magic (I hope I covered all the definitions).

And, although I think any practical muggle ruler probably would have recruited powerful allies, I don't think LV was looking for powerful wizard recruits. I think he would have waited for them to come to him. Otherwise, how could he know if they were just submitting to him because they were afraid, or if they truly wanted to be on his side? If they were in fact only submitting to his recruitment because they were afraid, they would be very easily lured away to the Order's side at the first glimpse of a possible Order-victory. Outcome? Voldy=screwed



Yay! . That was me!

And I definitely think this could be a possibility. It would further solidify my belief that Snape and Lily were alot closer than has ever been mentioned.

OK, this topic has been in slumber for too long now, it's time i disturb it.

Snape, and Lily living near each other? Although I quite liked this idea, I don't think that it will be used in cannon. It's too... I can't explain in, a bit too Albert Square, or Ramsey street, (soap-opera-esque.)

However, I do love the idea. Snape and Lily playing in the street, Snape hiding the fact that he's a wizard, and she hiding that she's got a letter. And voila! They find themselves at Hogwarts together. Lily trying to be friendly (as they were friends after all) and Snape giving her the cold shoulder. It might explain her in the pensieve scene! If one of your childhood friends started ignoring you just because they're new friends think you inferior, i don't know about you, but i'd be a bit bitter.

Then again, if all could have been an act and during the summer they were very good friends. We dont' know much about their relationship at school. But that pensieve scene keeps annoying me. I think there is a lot more behind it than meets the eye

I dunno, yeah, it feels too soapie. It also reminds me of something about the Grangers living near Godric's Hollow in a preliminary draft by Jo. This has been cited as evidence for the sibling theory. I don't like the idea either, but that's really just me.

Anyway, I was wondering about Snape and Harry again, and where Lily fitted in. Louise, even though I share your disgust for James as he is presented in the books, I actually like Lily. She doesn't remind me of Ginny, but of a perkier Hermione, and... um, yeah. I believe it's the Lily part of him that makes him such a, for lack of a better word, special person. He's really more than his dad, and I think it's Lily's Hermiony-ish wisdom in him that made him so. How's that for quadruple juxtaposition!?

Actually, I've got lots of issues with these characters. Jo wants us to accept James as Harry's father, and Ginny as his girlfriend, but she doesn't let us get to know them well enough. Then there is Snape, painted as black as can be, but I find it easy enough to forgive him all his petty nastiness. I feel like I have double standards. Snape has behaved like git hundreds of times. In James's defence, Sirius and Lupin managed to stay friends with him even while he was a git. So why do I like Snape, and not James?

The answer to that question might lead closer to why Lily chose James over Snape. (Apart from him calling her a Mudblood, of course - see he was a git!) Argh!

So anyway, I'm assuming Lily had reason to choose James, and it was all wonderful that she did. This left Snape hating one part of Harry and experiencing extreme pain because of the other part of Harry. Is it possible that he feels a fatherly feeling for him? This sounds way off the wall, I know, but if he saw himself as a possible partner for Lily, he could have been her son's father. Weird, loopy little theory, but does anyone else see this? So he cares for Harry (unbeknownst to himself of course) by trying to sneer the James out of him.



Ok, I've tried and tried, but that's unfortunately as coherently as my thoughts can be brought to text at this moment. Sorry.

*sigh*

I feel left out of the "I-Love-Snape" group. I really don't. Please don't throw your books at me Capricorn and Louise...

I don't know guys... I mean, he's just such a jerk! I feel like the only real reason I feel bad for him is because of the "Snape's Worst Memory" chapter, and (although this shouldn't effect my feelings about Snape) the Trust In Me fanfic by Snapelover.

I don't know why you all hate James so much... I simply adore him *ducks for flying books*. He and Sirius are the "bad-boys" of Hogwarts, sort of like Fred and George, but more attractive. Who wouldn't be attracted to that?

About the Snape-lived-near-Lily theory, I actually like it quite a bit. It would be pretty fun, wouldn't it? To have a little pensieve-flashback to when Snape and Lily were little, playing hopscotch or something? I don't think it is all that farfetched... I mean, yeah, it is a little soapie, as Capricorn said, but I still like it.

I am sticking to my guns about Snape having romantic feelings for Lily, and Lily not being so sure about her feelings towards Snape, and then she decides she is in love with James and only wants to be friends with Severus... did that make sense?

Uhmmm… I have been thinking for quite a while about this subject. I started to read this thread when it was about five posts long.

[quote=Laurette]Louise, even though I share your disgust for James as he is presented in the books, I actually like Lily. She doesn't remind me of Ginny, but of a perkier Hermione[/quote]…

I am of the same opinion. I do not even imagine Snape attracted to a girl like Ginny who he could find snogging somebody at every corner… (*cough* sorry ).

The thing is I do not think Lily betrayed him. The marauders must have found out about the levicorpus spell for some other way, maybe as Ygraine said Snape used it on someone. Because I think Lily maintain her distance for good, that it was real her dislike for James´ arrogance.

LilyPotter --- Although I am not throwing at you my books, I throw at you any other thing that crosses me. James adorable as "Bad-boy"? for Christ´s sake! (Just kidding!) / Now, seriously I do not like James he is so argh! The positive is that I do not feel jealous towards you for having to share Snape even more. Lol!


So here it is the combination of my first thoughts about it combined with all I´ve been reading here:

1. Since James and Snape weren´t very friendly with each other, this was not the first time Snape was humiliated in public.

2. From HBP we know Lily and Snape have a lot of time to get to know each other, as somebody point in the thread too, because they were very good students.
Snape meets this smart, beautiful and noble girl who is Lily and starts to feel something for her, but we do not have any information about what could have happened. All we know is that Snape is a really proud boy and not exactly… I mean I can´t imagine Snape accompanied by a girl in a scene of the kind of Harry with Cho in Madam Puddiefoot´s place.

3. From HBP we know that what Snape says to Lily doesn't have any meaning since he was not a pure blood either (although here you can arguee that most of the DEs are not exactly pure blood). I think he said so in an outrage moment without second thoughts. I think Snape said something as absurd as that because he was feeling worse by the fact that she was helping him.
So in the scene of the pensive I believe Snape felt really bad and more anger than usual, because Lily was there and saw him so defenseless. He must have felt terrible thinking the girl he liked saw him in such situation. And moreover she probably believed him so weak, she thought necessary to interfere and to try to rescue him.

4. And finally Snape witness how Lily can affect James temper. In the "Snape´s worst memory" chapter.
For Snape to realize that his worst enemy acts pretty different when Lily was around (and that she can upset James in such way) must have been even more disturbing.


[quote=Laurette]I'm assuming Lily had reason to choose James, and it was all wonderful that she did. This left Snape hating one part of Harry and experiencing extreme pain because of the other part of Harry. Is it possible that he feels a fatherly feeling for him? This sounds way off the wall, I know, but if he saw himself as a possible partner for Lily, he could have been her son's father. Weird, loopy little theory, but does anyone else see this? So he cares for Harry (unbeknownst to himself of course) by trying to sneer the James out of him.[/quote]

Oh my gosh! The part of "he could have been her son´s father" make me shiver. Even so I agree, Snape do care about Harry and has protected him more than once. All his means attitudes could be the expression of his opposing feelings. Could you imagine to have to be so close to the son of whom you believed was "the love of your life" and the same who ended next to someone whom you despise with all your insides?
I remember the first occlumency class, Snape was mean as always but in fact he said many useful things to Harry. Snape is like a really twisted and authoritarian father sometimes. With all his paraphernalia of I treat you with no mercy because the Dark Lord is not going to have it either! Or as someone said before "what do not kill you makes you stronger" something like that.

[quote]Originally I thought that that particular memory was in the pensieve because Snape was viewing it... as in, over and over and over again (...) I felt that Snape was agonizing over it.[/quote]

[quote]Snape is pulling them from his brain because he doesn't want Harry to see it.[/quote]

I think it is a mix of both quotes. Definitely Snape had to be viewing constantly that precise memory because other way he just had forgot that was valuable information for a kid that can use that fact as vengeance. We had to have in mind, also, that Snape take Harry out of the memory is not sure the memory ended there. Almost certainly Snape placed in the pensive the answer to our hypothesis.

[quote=Ygraine] Snape, and Lily living near each other?[/quote]

You know Helen I like this idea because it opens a new possibility (at least for me).
When Harry was in class of Occlumency, one time he protected himself and was capable to see some of Snape´s childhood memories. That time I thought Snape lived very hard moments, but you see I always pictured him alone (a lonely kid as he is a lonely guy). The thing is if Lily lived close to him and they maintained a friendship, he could have shared his emotional burden.
I envision Snape and Lily as really close friends, maybe Snape´s only friend.
Place yourselves in a situation in which you believe your friend betray you. For some reason she slip out one of your secrets (I know, I know this contradicts what I said in my first lines). You have trust issues and even more you are such a proud person that you just became really bitter and never confront the situation in an attempt to find out what really happened. That does not mean that you do not love you friend anymore, it just that you do not feel in the mood to stay close to him/her any longer.
I do not know how to explain this. It is just that I have the feeling that between Snape and Lily was a big unresolved problem: a misunderstanding or something. Lily looked quite surprise when Snape call her names.

Arghhhh! I need to think it deeply... My head have like a thousand data going around…

Bendis-You crack me up. Yeah, I know, a lot of people (for some reason that I simply cannot fathom) dislike James. I think he is fabulous. He's funny, and attractive, and smooth with the ladies... what more could a woman want? Anyways, I'm not going to argue my love for James right now... because I have a lot of people that disagree with me, and anyways, it's totally .

I think that Snape definitely had feelings for Lily. Like I said before, they were both extremely talented in potions, so they probably spent a lot of time together after OWLS and NEWTS. Also, Snape may be disgruntled, but he is not made of stone. When you are stuck next to a smart, beautiful woman like Lily all the time, you can't help but notice her better points.

That would explain so much about Snape and Harry's relationship. If Snape loved Lily at one point, and then James ended up winning her in the end, then Snape would hate James even more than he already did. His feelings for Lily, however, would not have subsided so easily. When you're in love, those feelings don't just disappear. He probably always harbored feelings towards her, and those feelings were mixed with a tremendous amount of guilt after she was killed by LV because of him.

In the end, he protects Harry because he is Lily's son, but loathes him all the same for being the son of James. I think that would make a lot of sense.

I was thinking that maybe we will get some information on this from Abeforth. He has probably always been up on the local gossip, being the bartender at the Hogshead. Perhaps the two of them used to frequent his bar to study potions or something. I could see Snape avoiding the main hangouts when he went on Hogsmeade trips.

I also like the idea that there is a diary of Lily's somewhere in Godric's Hollow that only Harry's eyes can read. That would fill us in on this as well.

I don't see Snape giving this information out to Harry. Not only would it be out of character for him, but it would also be very difficult, considering that Harry wants to kill him.

After rereading the books, I come to believe that Snape doesn't really love Lily.
1. Even as Snape hates James, seeing Harry has Lily's eyes, he should be a bit nicer to Harry. He isn't.
2. The short flashback showed that Snape dislikes Gryffindors and Mudbloods, so even if Lily is attractive, Snape would not allow himself to like her.
3. The bonding Snape has with Harry, according to Dumbledore, is his debt to James. There is no indication of him owing thing to Lily.
4. Most likely Snape and Lily competed for the best student in Potion, so they cannot be friends.

Oooh, you do have a point there Muggleview, all intresting and realistic things However, me being as sad as i am, and as i suffer from insomnia have actually spent the last few days working around them

Ok, I admit that some of these may sound corny, i'm just trying to make excuses for my self


Harry wears glasses, sometimes when someone wears glasses, one cannot see their eyes properly, therefore he may not actually see Harry's eyes. Or, he does see them, but is such a talent legitimens (sorry can't spell it) he doesn't react to those particular emotions (Love, grief, regret, guilt etc...)


It's never actually mentioned that Snape hates Muggleborns, we know he doesn't like the Gryffindor boys, but not nessecarily because they're Gryffindor. Although i'm not denying for a moment that he hates Gryffindors. But with called Lily a mudblood. Have you ever been angry, and taken it out on a family member or friend? And called them a horrid name or scream at them to go away? Even though you don't mean it, you're just so angry or Humiliated? (I know I have) This might have happened to Snape. I don't think he actually meant those words to Lily, but just took it out on her


For this one i'm going to quote myself, from something I said earlier in the thread



And last but not least...


This was the hardest one to try and ah... 'disprove' Any way. I don't think (by all means correct me if i'm wrong) it says that Lily was competing against Snape in Potions. Slughorn merely mentions that she was very good at the subject. Also, just because they were competing against each other doesn't nessacarily mean that they weren't friends. Although i'll grant you that this is completely out of Snape character. But over time if he saw Lily as less of a threat he may like her more. But Yeah trying to disprove your point is a bit of a stinker Curse Snape for being so stubborn, lol.

I love Snape (the usual chorus "we knooow"). I love his sarcastic and purring voice, his being grumpy, ironic and caustic. I love how he tries to act coherently with his Mask, always. Sorry if I'm taking time in talking about Severus.
Theories about Snape...how fascinating they can be. Thanks Gods, we can speculate on the combinations of words and try to reconstruct a character in 3D. (I always wonder: if JKR hates him so much, why is she building such a complex character with so many implications?). The following are only my opinions...
I'd love to believe in fanfictions, to see a happy Snape, in love, full of passion and joy of living. I'd love to see him with his own children, even divorced, as a proof that he has opened his heart to someone. But looking into his soul is not allowed. We can see it just twice in 6 books, one when we see his memories, the other when he screams to Harry not to call him a coward.
I wonder sometimes which strong effort, which act of will has transformed the shy, almost-mute, always-on-guard shabby boy in a regal, active and authoritative man.

The description we have of Snape is from the Marauders' point of view, or the students' pov, all people that loathe or fear him. The first sort-of-objective description is by Harry in Snape's worst memory. He feels...pity. He understands him. He knows that a boy who is daily bullied and harassed (and in a flash we know that something unpleasant has happened at home too) can become a dangerous mix of hate and vengeance thoughts, because Harry feels that, too. Sirius didn't spend a second in trying to know Snivellus. Proof is, that he still doesn't believe how Snape can be able to teach at Hogwarts. He has such a low opinion of Snape that he really doesn't believe how and why he teaches there.
Is it possible that no-one of his schoolmates realized that he was a very intelligent boy?

And now, given the premises, I'll say that I can't see any relationship between Snape and Lily. It's like when a girl sees a boy torturing a kitten. It's not her kitten, maybe it's another person's, but the act itself is intolerable to her, and she asks the boy to leave the kitten alone. The boy says that if she gives a lollypop or sweet or a toy to him, he'll stop torturing the cat. She doesn't see the person, she sees -and reacts- to the act of torturing. Snape is not a friend, is a victim, could have been anyone else. Lily means only to stop James from the act of torturing, which brings sufferance to someone, whoever he/she is.

Snape is too busy surviving in those days at Hogwarts to fall in love. We don't know about his relationships with his housemates. Friendships? we don't know. Love? I don't think he's relaxed enough. He needs to watch his back almost continuously and, most of all, he's a swot. Look how he's doing his exams, all alone. He doesn't share, it's a mental attitude. You can almost see his hand hiding his work from the mates' sight. He experiments with Potions, we have a testimonial that is the book itself with his notes on it. This takes time and concentration is needed.
From a boy's pov, it's difficult to look for a girl when almost half of the school has seen your underwear and has witnessed a constant harassing. You are only willing to hide yourself. School can be a torture. Gryffindors vs Slytherins. This is another reason why I can't see a relationship between Lily and Severus.

Witchmom )O(

This is a debate thread, yes? So I'm absolutely within my rights to offer a dissenting point of view, yes?

Okay, I hate to be negative nanny here, but this theory is completely without base. Throughout the series there has been absolutely no connection made between Lily and Snape other than the one instance in "Snape's Worst Memory" when Lily attempted to aid Snape, Ginny-like (as Ginny does with Loony and Neville) and is COMPLETELY shot down. I don't mean shot down as in, "No, I can't, I've got to take a shower . . ." I mean shot down as in, "You're the scum of the earth, and I hope you die!"

Snape hated the fact that he was half muggle. Which is why he chose to call himself a Half-Blood Prince, as his mother was Eileen Prince, playing up his Pureblood lines. It is no more than people's own desire for Snape to have some redeeming quality that even allows a theory like this to exist. Case in point:



So in the scene of the pensive I believe Snape felt really bad and more anger than usual, because Lily was there and saw him so defenseless. He must have felt terrible thinking the girl he liked saw him in such situation. And moreover she probably believed him so weak, she thought necessary to interfere and to try to rescue him.

I'm sorry, but I had to repeat that. That is a huge leap to make from a few sentances of cannon. We have a single scene in which Lily and Snape interact. We have one sentance in which Snape actually speaks to Lily, and in that sentance he tells her to shove off. After which, Lily sneers at him, and even finds what Sirius and James are doing to him somewhat amusing. Indeed, Snape may have been angry beyond reason when he called her a "Mudblood" but that does not mean he ever admitted to himself that he was a mudblood as well. He was half-wizard like Seamus. He joined the Death Eaters, a Pureblood supremacy group, because he hated his muggle father and wished he himself was pureblood.

I think it safe to say that when Snape said "filthy mudblood" he meant filthy mudblood.

To reiterate my points: 1. This theory is built on fluff and air with no basis in cannon.

If you argue for it as a theory you like but something you know is not part of the series and never will be, that is one thing, but to actively try and prove there is a romantic connection between Snape and Lily is folly, as it requires the broadest of interpretation of the text, and platforms built of balsa wood on a foundation of straw.

*strikes sparks and fans the flames*

(Curse of the Weasel King! don't fail me now! )

*pulls out wand smoothly, and performs the aguamenti charm *


Hmm I disagree, there is plenty of evidence for this theory that is completely reliant on how you look at it, just like with the "Who is Snape really Betraying" Theories... I could look at every little thing in the canon and see little clues here and there as long as I was looking for them... does that make sense... I think there is a good chance that Snape had feeling for Lily... think about it, who cares if he called her a filthy mudblood in the scene, Snape worst Memory... it is always said that we hurt the ones we love the most... Lets go through this together.... Snape hates James, Sirius, Lupin and Pettigrew... mostly Sirius and James..... and they instigate him... and eventually bring out wands... then Lily comes over... Snape is already embarrassed about Sirius and James, and now, in front of his pureblood slytherins no doubt, a "mudblood" is sticking up for him... he is enraged about James and Sirius, wants to preserve some dignity in front of his "death eater" pals most likely, and lashes out at Lily... that is probably why that is his worst memory.. perhaps lily, who was good at potions, was nice to him, and they worked together (a big maybe) in secret study groups (MAYBE, Lol) or some such thing and developed a sort of friendship, with or without study groups... and he felt that he was closer to her liking him... and then when she sticks up for him in public... he lashes out at her.. ruining their little friendship and all hope a=of being with her... hence his worst Memory, and his even more loathsome nature against James... then james gets with Lily, and that seals the deal for Snape... but he still loves Lily, and he is now in the service of the Dark Lord, and is assigned to follow Albus Dumbledore when one stormy night in the summer, he hears the beginning of a prophecy concerning the Dark Lord and his downfall, he, naturally on orders, tells the Dark Lord all he knows...... but doesn't know who the prophecy concerns.......then he hears word that Lily had a child as the seventh month dies, and he is stricken... it is his fault that she and her child will be attacked... so he pleads with Voldemort, or perhaps more subtly persuades him to spare her life... hence why Lord Voldemort says "stand aside silly girl" that night in godrics hollow and " your mother needn't have died"(paraphrased) to Harry that night in the graveyard I think.... but Lily stood up to Voldemort, and would not let him kill her son... so she was murdered... much to the dismay of Severus Snape... the only one he loves is dead, and it is all his fault, how terrible.. who does he go to, who does he explain his sorrow to.... Albus Dumbledore...he tells him his story as I have just told you, and it is genuine sorrow and regret for the death of Lily, and that of James perhaps (he was debted to james for saving him from the werewolf Lupin).... and since it was genuine love that Snape felt, it was more than solid proof for Albus Dumbledore, who held love higher than all magic... this is the proof Dumbledore has of Snapes loyalty and his trust in him... Severus Snape's love for Lily Evans(Potter)...

call it folly, or built on a platform of balsa wood, on a foundation of straw, but this theory has evidence...

~Albus

You sited not one shred of evidence.

It would be impossible for you to have, because there is no imperical evidence to support this thoery. You say there is evidence, and then you write something like this:



That is not evidence. That is spun sugar. Fairy dust. Ether of dreams.

You hypothesise that he probably wants to save some face infront of his "DE" buddies, which is true enough, though I'd say just infront of everyone in general. But then you say it is probably his worst memory because he lashed out at Lily. *pull's wand "Ridikulus!"* Be gone Bogart! Then you go into a bunch of perhaps and mayhaps and, worst of all, "he felts", when you have not one word written by JK Rowling to support any of it.

This entire topic is absurd. As a fanfic it might be interesting, and I understand it appeals to a large audience, but I personally believe it has no place in the realm of serious debate and should be banished from the Great Hall.

(I am only posting a second time because I am bored, and all the other serious debates have dried up. Thought I'd try my hand at drying up this one as well!)

Yes I did say there was evidence for the Theory, and I displayed it... I merely made my argument stronger by weaving into a story that could be followed easily, and believed... is that not what a theory is?... a story to explain what you think might happen or did happen. The little plot details in my story is the evidence... not spun sugar orether of dreams...but my interpretations which are derived from instances in the books that led me to believe that this this could be possible. All of the theories are made from the very things you cut my post down for:



that is what a theory is... my interpretation on the text given to me. There is nothing else I can do, but what I have already done: post my opinion and theory. Now if someone could produce evidence against the theory, rather than lack of canon, then we would have an appropriate discussion.

As for drying this thread up... I like this theory too much to let it happen.

~Albus

There is no need to find evidence to disprove this, simply because there is no evidence to prove it. There is a bit of text which can be grossly misinterpreted, and expanded beyond reason to mean something it does not say, nor even imply. The burden of proof lies upon those who support this theory. There is simply not enough evidence to argue about it. It is all pure conjecture.

I am not "cutting down" your post, I am cutting down the entire theory.

I could make an argument that monkeys might fly out of my bum. Because there are monkeys, and there are animals that fly, so there could be flying monkeys! And if there were flying monkeys then they just might want to live in my bum, because my bum is probably a nice, warm, cozy place in which a flying monkey might want to live. And if there were flying monkeys and if they felt like living in my bum, they just might want to leave once in a while because they feel like stretching their wings. Hence, monkeys flying out of my bum.

A theory which has just as much basis as Snape and Lily having some romantic connection in the HP series as we know it.

As I said, as a bit of fanfiction, I have no problem with this theory. I'm sure compelling storys have been written about the very subject which are entirely plausible and enjoyable to read. The problem I have is that it is an entirely different story, and therefore this theory has no place in the Great Hall which is a forum for serious debate about theories with factual evidence from the Harry Potter series as written by JK Rowling.

The reason I do not believe this theory belongs in the Great Hall is because there is not enough evidence to debate it in a cordial manner. (As I believe I have proven ) It merely degenerates into a series of "yes it is!" "no it's not!" posts, or the sort of fluff that the Great Hall was created to avoid where a bunch of people who support the theory get together and post things like "Dan Radcliffe is sooo hot!" Or "Snape and Lily are soooo right together!"

Basically, every theory has its place, and this one's place, in my opinion, is elsewhere.

I agree, there could be flying monkeys coming out of your bum... it all depends on your lifestyle I guess

But...sadly... we are not talking about flying monkeys and bodily orifices, we are merely discussing the possibility of a troubled, unpopular teenage boy having a crush on a beautiful, popular, smart girl... its hardly unheard of. That is all this theory is about, nothing more... and there is hints... slight hints, yes... but hints nonetheless. What else in that memory can be worse than seeing your mother hit by your father... as we saw that Snape lived through in the pensieve... Yes, one could say that getting lifted in the air to reveal your undergarments would be quite bad... but like Lupin said, that spell was popular, and not the material of ones worst memory. But... love is terrible and beautiful at the same time... so this is where we find out evidence. That, along with the fact that he detests james and never speaks of Lily... and the strong possibility that Voldemorts remarks "Stand aside silly girl" could have been the product of pleas and/or persuasions on the part of Severus Snape.... these are our references in the canon, and when you see these and think of them in the context of truth, then one can take the theory out to further degrees, weaving a tale from the references, and possibilities.

As for debating this theory in a cordial manner, it was quite achievable, i'm afraid to say, until, as you have pointed out yourself, you posted your thoughts on the subject... I doubt that I would have joined this thread if it didn't need defending....

~Albus

I agree with Tom, and sorry LLWK, but, maybe there aren't a lot of evidence, but some facts are to consider.

Lot of thing in the sixth book are to consider (except of course, Snape's worst memory).
First of all, the most evident. If the potion book was Snape's property, how then, Slughorn says that Harry is as good as Lily, and that even Severus wasn't able to do some kind of potions? You can look at it in two differents points of view, but both of them are proof to the theory.

Lily told Snape how to do potion, and he wrote them. (Seems unlikely, because he would had done the same as her) Or, he let her do these potion like he wrote how, and he did as the manual said, or, less better.

The other point is speculative, but, theory are speculative. How Snape knew who was Padfoot. I don't think Sirius and James were so stupid to tell there secret name to everybody, but, probably James would made Lily an exception.

Now, some little quote from the book (well, from french to english)

Slughorn
Obsessional love is the most powerful and terrible magic.

Dumbledore
A good principal know everything that happened in his school.

If Dumbledore knew that Snape loved Lily, then he know Snape really returned on the night of october 31st

I don't think that this theory was ever meant to be in the league of any 'Snape is good/evil' or 'Is Harry a horcrux?' or Rab theories, in the sense that it relies on the emotional story of the characters and not on any proper evidence.

Why I could believe this is not because of evidence (at all, really) but because it presents a workable explanation for many emotional acts that Snape has done, and choices he has made. In my opinion, there's a big difference between something 'presenting and explanation' and something being 'proof'.

Another thing is that this is not a shipping debate, but a Snape loved Lily discussion. I don't think they were together ever, or could have been. Nor do I think either of them wanted it, but I do believe it is perfectly plausible that Snape could have been in love with Lily. (Unbeknowst to himself, I suspect, until later).

A simple reason for this is the way he reacts to and treats Harry. Far from it proving anything, I can still dream up endless plot lines around it, wholly in sync with canon, that involve this theory.

In the end, I guess, it comes down to the interpretation of Snape's character, and that is definitely dodgy ground on which to build an argument for any theory. (See some posts made in the Snape trial - guilty ).

Dodgy as it is though, no one can argue that it's more dodgy than the argument for Snape being the HBP before the book came out (and that picture of the cover...). There was nothing to support that either. Even less, I should say, because there wasn't even emotional grounds for it.

*sucks breath in through teeth*

I'm posting a poking. A big one.

Now listen up here guys, and listen up good.

You guys are in the Great Hall. So show some respect. I will not tolerate the kind of ridicule that I'm seeing in here. If you want to have a decent debate, great. But if anyone is coming here to take the mick, then I can always show you the door.

These threads are a privilege and one that will be revoked immediately if I ever see even a hint that these are heading towards the kind of disrespect that I saw in the old shipping debates.

I want to see some textual evidence from both parties here or else I'm going to get very, very cross with some of the supposedly more mature members of this forum.

If you think this idea is ridiculous, then don't post here. If you're willing to consider the idea, then debate about it. I really don't think I should need to spell out the difference between debate and confrontation to you people.

Consider yourselves warned.

Thank you Louise, though I realize I am one of those who you are warning...

Ok, lets clean this up, there are some key points in the books that lead me to believe that Severus Snape loved Lily Evans, and still has residual emotions for her after her death. I believe that, although very characteristic of a Soap-Opera, that there was mixed emotions for Lily on Severus' part. This kind of dilemma appears quite often in stories like this, although alot more extreme in some cases. Lets take Romeo and Juliet type stories... the families are fighting, and logically the children should not want to be in love with the other families children... but it happens, its very histrionic, and happens all the time in media... though who you shouldn't love, you always end of loving... its something about the forbidden that attract us humans. This is what got me thinking about Severus loving Lily.

Although there is nothing written in text that would read as Severus loving Lily, but if we take a look at a few scenes and quotes, with the idea of the love for her in our minds, we will begin to see it more clearly... as most theories work.

First... Lets touch on a very special scene is OotP.. a scene called "Snapes Worst Memory". What do we know about this scene... well in summary, Snape has a little scene with Sirius and James, snape hangs upside down with Levicorpus, and Lily tries to help him. Snape, as if offended, calls her a Mudblood.... so why is this is worst memory... is everyone seeing is underwear much worse than seeing his mother being abused... I think not. I think it was more than what we think, I think it is Snapes worst memory for that was the moment LIly went against him... she may not have been in love with him, or even talked to him, but we see by her actions that she still cared enough to try to stop james... and Severus ruined that by attacking the one he loved, by calling her a mudblood.

Then there is another thing that goes unexplained that would except this theory with ease. Why did Voldemort offer to spare Lily that night at Godrics Hollow. There is a simple explanation as I explained before, and will again. Snape is assigned to follow Albus Dumbledore one stormy night in the summer,where he hears the beginning of a prophecy concerning the Dark Lord and his downfall, naturally on orders from Lord Voldemort, tells the Dark Lord all he knows...... but doesn't know who the prophecy concerns.......then he hears word that Lily had a child as the seventh month dies, and he is stricken... it is his fault that she and her child will be attacked... so he pleads with Voldemort, or perhaps more subtly persuades him to spare her life... hence why Lord Voldemort says "stand aside silly girl" that night in godrics hollow and " your mother needn't have died"(paraphrased) to Harry that night in the graveyard I think.... but Lily stood up to Voldemort, and would not let him kill her son... so she was murdered... much to the dismay of Severus Snape... the only one he loves is dead, and it is all his fault, how terrible.. who does he go to, who does he explain his sorrow to.... Albus Dumbledore...he tells him his story as I have just told you, and it is genuine sorrow and regret for the death of Lily, and that of James perhaps (he was debted to james for saving him from the werewolf Lupin).... and since it was genuine love that Snape felt, it was more than solid proof for Albus Dumbledore, who held love higher than all magic... this is the proof Dumbledore has of Snapes loyalty and his trust in him

You see, Snape loving Lily is more than a frivolous romance, it also explains Dumbledore's undying trust in, and why he stood by him all the way. I will not discuss this here, but knowing that may lead you to feel that this theory is worth a little more than once thought.

Thank you, and again I apologize for my last posts Louise, as well as the body of the members of the Great Hall in general.

~Albus

In order to keep good faith, I must, of course, apologize for my last post which, as I admitted, was in poor taste. However, I felt it must be said. I'm sure others were thinking something along those lines, and I am not one to hide my thoughts. That is, of course, no excuse for being uncivil and for that I apologize.

At any rate, I am convinced. You have quite convinced me. Snape was most definately in love with Lily. There can be no possible other explaination. You see, I say this because there is absolutely no evidence at all in even one of the books to disprove it. It's quite incredible, really, that something that important could be completely glossed over by a writer of such exacting detail as JK Rowling. How could she have failed to offer proof that Snape did not love Lily Potter, the mudblood and sweetheart of his worst enemy?

Of course, I will say that Snape's worst memory could be abject humiliation before the entire school simply because Snape cannot stand being made to look a fool (case in point, Sirius's escape after which Snape became murderous with rage), moreover humiliated by someone he already hated with an all consuming passion, who he also saw as inferior to himself, as he did everyone. This could be worse for Snape than seeing his mother abused by his father simply because Snape is an uncaring individual who loves himself, and his own ambition more than any other thing in the world, even his own honor. This, of course, requires a belief that Snape is truly evil, something which belief in this theory makes mutually exclusive.

For future referance, you might also include the fact that JK Rowling said having his mother's eyes would be important later in the series, which could be because Snape loved Lily, and he sees Lily in Harry's eyes and that will cause him to come to Harry's rescue when he shows that he murdered the most powerful force for good in the world in order to prove himself in his double agent role with Voldemort. Then you could mention how JK has said again and again that Love is the most powerful force in the universe and it will be paramount in Voldemort's downfall.

Rogueisgood,

I am somewhat confused by this statement:



As Snape did not know Sirius was an animagus until GoF when "Snuffles" transformed into Sirius before him. However, as for knowing he was "Padfoot", if you will recall Snape's Worst Memory again, you will see that the Mauraders often called each other by their nicknames even in public, so it was possible that Snape, and others, did know the Mauraders knicknames for each other, even if they did not know their cause.